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  #1  
Old 05-02-2012, 11:42 AM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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2011 BMW Leftover

Hey All,

Question on a leftover X3 28i from 2011. Last 2011 on the lot, and stickered at around 46,500. What should i expect as a discount on the car. The dealer already has 2012s on the lot, and 2013s on there way. 2012s i believe ended production in March, so technically the vehicle is 3 MYs old. Im gonna be financing this car thru my own bank.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:40 PM
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Probably not enough to make it worthwhile...

They can make a crazy deal on the financing. and will probably sell it to someone that wants a super cheap lease.

IMO, it is "worth" 20% under Invoice.

If you have a 2011 with 1000 miles that YOU wanted to trade in, what do you think THEY would offer?

A used 2011 with very low miles should be your 'comparison'...what does KBB or Edmunds say for trade in value & private party value? (Remember, those prices are WAY inflated- don't use dealer prices, private party prices are closer to what you should pay a dealer.)
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  #3  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:56 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Thanks for the reply, but is a 2011 leftover really worth 20% Under invoice? But yes I took your advice checked out kbb and it showed me a price 4.8% off msrp. Lastly I was looking at a another post Who had a similar situation and found that leftover leases are not worthwhile as BMW fs gives really low residuals with high money factor. I am not too familiar with leasing as I like to purchase all cars I drive but wouldn't it be a loss for the bmwfs if they leased rather than purchased?
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  #4  
Old 05-02-2012, 10:57 PM
ard ard is online now
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You are saying that a 2011 is now selling at 4.8 under the original MSRP?!?! BS. Simply impossible. A brand new 2013 sells for 4.8% under MSRP!!!

Leasing sucks. But as I stated, they can play with the numbers to make a VERY attractive deal to someone ELSE who wants a lease.

Why are you seeking a 2 year old car?!?!? You can buy these cars at invoice today....why buy a 2 year old car for anything CLOSE to that number?

Good Luck
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  #5  
Old 05-02-2012, 11:12 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Hey Ard,

Im looking at x3s from various years 11-13. I'm hoping the 2011 is 20% off as you say, since that would make the car real affordable for my budget. I understand the dealer leasing the car to make it attractive. If I get a horrible deal Im probably gonna wait it out till the end of summer to score a 2012. I have been quoted 4.8 off msrp for 2012 similarly equipped to the 2011, however the 2011 seems to have a bit more bargaining room than the 2012s. And for the 2013 I would simply have to order a bare bones x3, as the dealers aren't willing to budge the slightest citing
High demands for the other optioned out vehicles on the lot. If you know anyone whose willing to be a bit more aggressive in pricing, please pm me! Thanks
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  #6  
Old 05-03-2012, 09:35 AM
ard ard is online now
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Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
Hey Ard,

Im looking at x3s from various years 11-13. I'm hoping the 2011 is 20% off as you say, since that would make the car real affordable for my budget. I understand the dealer leasing the car to make it attractive. If I get a horrible deal Im probably gonna wait it out till the end of summer to score a 2012. I have been quoted 4.8 off msrp for 2012 similarly equipped to the 2011, however the 2011 seems to have a bit more bargaining room than the 2012s. And for the 2013 I would simply have to order a bare bones x3, as the dealers aren't willing to budge the slightest citing

High demands for the other optioned out vehicles on the lot. If you know anyone whose willing to be a bit more aggressive in pricing, please pm me! Thanks
Generally ANY of the sponsors on the board will offer a deal at a very reasonable number over invoice. (When you realize this is about 4% off MSRP, you can understand how bad the deal is on that 2011.)

You asked what the car was WORTH.

NOT what I think it will sell for or what the dealer will demand. (Yes, many will argue 'it is worth what someone pays', but that is a theoretic argument and the price of ONE example, with the accompanying deal parameters cloud that argument.) I would simply not buy a 2 year old car to save a piddly 3-4k.

Look at used prices- they should be in the mid to upper thirties. KBB has a base 2011 X3 at 29k trade, dealer retail 33k. Heck, buy a dealer CPO with a 100k mile warranty and 15k miles! Cheaper than a "new" 2011. When you get to 115k miles versus 100k, and having the benefit of the 100k mile warranty, you will be ahead.


You should NOT be looking or thinking in terms of "MSRP". You should be thinking "What did this cost the dealer" and "how much over cost will I give them". I target 500, I've paid 750 and 1250 for my X5s. (I paid for the privilege of getting the first shipment of 2010s in late 2009..and a 2012 in Oct 2011.)


GL

A
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  #7  
Old 05-03-2012, 09:41 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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Here's my take on buying left over cars. There's a reason they are left over, and it's often not just because there is something wrong or unpopular about them. There's ALWAYS a price point where someone will buy it, even given how bad or unpopular the car is.

This is my opinion on why that car is still there. All offers up until that point, and for sure there's been a lot of them since it's beeen on the lot for so long, have been rejected. So if your offer is the one that has been accepted, then that is probably because you've offered the most, all things considered. Do you really want to be that person? The highest bidder? Especially since the reason is because you're looking for a deal, and not because you especially like that model year or spec. But if you definitely want that car, perhaps because it has an engine no longer available (like a straight 6 ove a turbo 4), then paying a little more, is totally fine.

Often the best deal is not the lowest priced one.
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  #8  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:44 AM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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That does raise some questions, why was this vehicle on the lot so long. I will be looking into that. Thanks for the advice!
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  #9  
Old 05-04-2012, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Here's my take on buying left over cars. There's a reason they are left over, and it's often not just because there is something wrong or unpopular about them. There's ALWAYS a price point where someone will buy it, even given how bad or unpopular the car is.

This is my opinion on why that car is still there. All offers up until that point, and for sure there's been a lot of them since it's beeen on the lot for so long, have been rejected. So if your offer is the one that has been accepted, then that is probably because you've offered the most, all things considered. Do you really want to be that person? The highest bidder? Especially since the reason is because you're looking for a deal, and not because you especially like that model year or spec. But if you definitely want that car, perhaps because it has an engine no longer available (like a straight 6 ove a turbo 4), then paying a little more, is totally fine.

Often the best deal is not the lowest priced one.
Sometimes, you are the first person to offer, just after the sales manager has come to his senses... (that's the guy I want to be..lol)
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  #10  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:00 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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Sales managers usually have years in the business and have seen everything. So if you think you have one up on someone with more knowledge and experience, more power to you.
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  #11  
Old 05-04-2012, 09:18 AM
j3ff j3ff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Here's my take on buying left over cars. There's a reason they are left over, and it's often not just because there is something wrong or unpopular about them. There's ALWAYS a price point where someone will buy it, even given how bad or unpopular the car is.

This is my opinion on why that car is still there. All offers up until that point, and for sure there's been a lot of them since it's beeen on the lot for so long, have been rejected. So if your offer is the one that has been accepted, then that is probably because you've offered the most, all things considered. Do you really want to be that person? The highest bidder? Especially since the reason is because you're looking for a deal, and not because you especially like that model year or spec. But if you definitely want that car, perhaps because it has an engine no longer available (like a straight 6 ove a turbo 4), then paying a little more, is totally fine.

Often the best deal is not the lowest priced one.
you're leaving out the passage of time in your analysis. that vehicle is eating money every day by being carried in financed inventory. further, it gets less valuable every day. what was an unacceptable offer 6 months ago might look very good to the sales manager today.
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  #12  
Old 05-04-2012, 09:52 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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When was the last time you heard of someone getting a killer unrepeatable deal?

Your arguments are valid. But you count on luck - meaning right at that point in time, you catch the sales manager changing his view. If you're that lucky, you should be calling stock market tops and bottoms. Plus any money sunk in the car can't be recovered - you need to look at what it will cost going forward, not what it has already cost them. Interest rates are historically low, so I would expect carrying costs are low as well.

Unless you are saying that there is a formula where you can predict WHEN a specific sales manager will be dovish to a lowball offer. For example, at the 2 year window, and on that day exactly. In absence of that, your accepted offer is going to be high. I guess you can ask him for all the offers they've had, and when they've had them, and base your offer off that information.

An alternative is to have a price in mind, and have them make the offer. If your price is above the offer, then take their offer.
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  #13  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:26 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Thanks Everyone,

I talked to them yesterday the best im getting for this old model is about 7%. Which is horrible considering the car is 3 MYs old, and im getting 7% on a 2012 or 2013 in the color combo but same options and best part ITS close by.

Also I wonder what the car will sell for, if anyone buys that car for next to invoice
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:32 PM
Stonehauler Stonehauler is offline
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When was it built? (sticker)
How many miles?
This car is only 1 model year old (2011 to 2012), and going on 2, not three.
How much has it been driven recently?
Was it used as a demo?

Some of the others are right though, this is eating into profit, and they might have to pay taxes on it if carried over. That said is there a reason you want that vehicle over a 2012 or 2013? (straight 6 vs twin turbo 4)

It could be an August build, delivered in sept/oct, and it's only been on the books 6 months and under 100 miles. It's still "new" so you get good rates on your loan as compared to a used car loan. It could also have had other issues, been driven 12k miles as a dealer/demo/etc, and be something like 10-14 months old. These factors are what will drive your dealer to sell or not.

The other issue is...do you really want a car that's been sitting on the lot, not being driven, maintained, broken in properly etc, or do you want a new one? If it's been sitting on the lot, not being driven, it's possible a lot of the break in lubricants have broken down, there might also be bad ring seating, brakes pitting due to rust, etc.

Also, you should be able to price out and order the exact car you want at a reasonable rate, just as you would buying a car off the lot. Buying off the lot, you look at dealer invoice, and give a little bit more...500-1k over invoice from what I hear, depending on model (M5 is MSRP from what I hear) For ordering a car, it should be the same. You are purchasing one of their allocated vehicles, just like the ones on the lot, and you are giving them a sale where the car comes in, and goes out in a day or two, not sitting on the lot for 30 days (current times of an x3 according to cars.com).

If they still give you the run around...go somewhere else. When I got my first luxury car (Lexus), I was 30 and I wasn't given the time of day by any dealer except one. That dealer was 50 miles away, but they got the sale, and the service for my vehicle until I moved 4 states away. Remember, your dealer will probably be the person you go back to service for, so don't settle for a place you feel is taking advantage of you. That said, don't expect them to like being taken advantage of either.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:01 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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When was it built? (sticker)
I have no clue
How many miles?
2
This car is only 1 model year old (2011 to 2012), and going on 2, not three.
technically its 3 years old. BMW ended production of 2012 in March. 2013s are in the dealer lot. I get the 2, but im going by what BMW MY in the lots
How much has it been driven recently?
I have no clue
Was it used as a demo?
no

Some of the others are right though, this is eating into profit, and they might have to pay taxes on it if carried over. That said is there a reason you want that vehicle over a 2012 or 2013? (straight 6 vs twin turbo 4)
refer to Yesterday 02:12 AM

It could be an August build, delivered in sept/oct, and it's only been on the books 6 months and under 100 miles. It's still "new" so you get good rates on your loan as compared to a used car loan. It could also have had other issues, been driven 12k miles as a dealer/demo/etc, and be something like 10-14 months old. These factors are what will drive your dealer to sell or not.
That might be true, but im not financing thru BMW, and might just pay cash

The other issue is...do you really want a car that's been sitting on the lot, not being driven, maintained, broken in properly etc, or do you want a new one? If it's been sitting on the lot, not being driven, it's possible a lot of the break in lubricants have broken down, there might also be bad ring seating, brakes pitting due to rust, etc.
True, but that's a risk im willing to take considering the price and i have got 4 years 50k maintenance

Also, you should be able to price out and order the exact car you want at a reasonable rate, just as you would buying a car off the lot. Buying off the lot, you look at dealer invoice, and give a little bit more...500-1k over invoice from what I hear, depending on model (M5 is MSRP from what I hear) For ordering a car, it should be the same. You are purchasing one of their allocated vehicles, just like the ones on the lot, and you are giving them a sale where the car comes in, and goes out in a day or two, not sitting on the lot for 30 days (current times of an x3 according to cars.com).
I was thinking about that, but most car deals tend to be had when the car is on the lot for a bit hence you can custom order it and get what you want for a premium or sacrifice some gizmos for a better price. In my case im probably gonna end up with the latter

If they still give you the run around...go somewhere else. When I got my first luxury car (Lexus), I was 30 and I wasn't given the time of day by any dealer except one. That dealer was 50 miles away, but they got the sale, and the service for my vehicle until I moved 4 states away. Remember, your dealer will probably be the person you go back to service for, so don't settle for a place you feel is taking advantage of you. That said, don't expect them to like being taken advantage of either.
Other posters have said that, and that's what im doing checking inventory over options and prices from around the country, except CA and AL as AL has its physical distance, and CA cars tend to be fitted with special power-train components, which are incompatible with other states or must be fitted to work (Case in point emission systems)


Thanks
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
but most car deals tend to be had when the car is on the lot for a bit hence you can custom order it and get what you want for a premium or sacrifice some gizmos for a better price. In my case im probably gonna end up with the latter[/B]
I disagree with this...and think most shopper here would also reject this.

Simply put, we know pretty much what they are paying for the cars and what profit they make.... Actually, as the car sits on the lot they loose MORE money! A car that is sold and ordered can be had at a slim profit as they know they will not have to carry it. You may think they will lower the price as time goes on...BUT THEY CAN'T LOWER IT BELOW THEIR COSTS. You should be paying pretty close to cost, maybe 500 or so over. (NB- I don't know what this model is commanding, but my guess is not much.)

A sharp salesman will nod his head, agree with you and say 'sure, maybe it costs a bit more but when I custom order it at least you'll get everything you want'... kaching
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:11 AM
Stonehauler Stonehauler is offline
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Don't fall for the line of it's more expensive to order, etc. It's the same type of game I have seen by dealers looking to squeeze every last dime from you. Also, don't dicker based on the monthly payment, etc. What you want to agree on is the price of the car, not payment. Once you have the price, figure out how much you need to put down to get the payments you want. You are financing from your own bank...good, unless BMWNA has a better interest rate. Agree on the price of the car. Have a written offer for your trade (if any) from another dealer in hand (one that knows you are not buying from them). Oh, and if they pull out a sheet with 4 squares on it when discussing pricing...RUN, not walk, out of that dealership and never return.

I have owned 7 new vehicles, and I have ordered 6 of them. I have rarely paid more than invoice. The other was still on the truck when I bought it and it had only 1 option I did not want. (a few months after sept 11th when they were almost giving cars away). If your dealer is not willing to sell you an ordered vehicle with the exact stuff you want for a reasonable amount, go to another dealer. Don't go back to that dealer you walked away from for service either. That's where they make most of their profit, so why reward a dealer for trying to take advantage of you, instead go to the place that sold you the car.

Production for the 2011 vehicles started Sept 2, 2010 (this is the switchover from Austria to NC production)
Production for the 2011 X3 ended August/September 2011 and start of production for the 2012s was September 2011.

As for "model years old" My way of thinking about it is current year, previous year (1 MYO), etc. You may think differently, but this car is only 2 model years old...NOT 3 It can also be only 7 months old, but it might be older.

If you are only keeping the car 4 years or 40k miles, sure, it's ok to not worry about the engine, break in, brakes, etc. BUT, if you plan on keeping the car longer, either get an extended warranty, or get a new one. You are on a budget, I understand that, I have one myself. I also know that buying a new car doesn't make sense if you are keeping it only 3-4 years from a pure financial point of view. If you are only going to keep it a few years, get a CPO, save some dough, and get the extended warranty. No it's not new, but the warranty, etc should keep you good. If you ARE keeping it a while, get a new one. Problems from break in, pitted brakes, etc won't show up right away, and it's possible it won't show up until after the warranty expires. Getting one off the lot that has just been sitting there for months on end without being driven/started will just be asking for trouble.

Last edited by Stonehauler; 05-05-2012 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 05-05-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
Here's my take on buying left over cars. There's a reason they are left over, and it's often not just because there is something wrong or unpopular about them. There's ALWAYS a price point where someone will buy it, even given how bad or unpopular the car is.

This is my opinion on why that car is still there. All offers up until that point, and for sure there's been a lot of them since it's beeen on the lot for so long, have been rejected. So if your offer is the one that has been accepted, then that is probably because you've offered the most, all things considered. Do you really want to be that person? The highest bidder? Especially since the reason is because you're looking for a deal, and not because you especially like that model year or spec. But if you definitely want that car, perhaps because it has an engine no longer available (like a straight 6 ove a turbo 4), then paying a little more, is totally fine.

Often the best deal is not the lowest priced one.
Even if you are the "highest bidder" what does it matter if that price point is at what you are willing to purchase the car for. If it is right for you (the buyer) then why should it matter? just my .02
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Old 05-05-2012, 04:30 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is offline
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Even if you are the "highest bidder" what does it matter if that price point is at what you are willing to purchase the car for.
Because the OP alludes to wanting to get an unbeatable deal as the primary factor. But in fact, all things being equal, his winning offer is in fact the most expensive deal.

It's fine if that is the car you want, in which case you pay what you value, but if you are after a deal, irrespective of the car, then comparative pricing is the main driver. There's a lot of research into auction pricing that goes to this. Hey, he's welcome to pay MSRP if he wants - it is recommended.

For example I'm currently driving a 750i ActiveHybrid - just for the unbeatable deal. I would have got a 750i if the monthly lease was relatively the same as a percentage of MSRP. In a similar manner, the OP would like a 2013, but would drive a 2011 if the deal is unbeatable.
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3/06 ED 2 - thread ID 136454

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Old 05-05-2012, 06:03 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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I think Chris got it the best. If i wanted to I`d take a 2013 custom ordered to my exact specs, however I`m one who likes to dabble in bargaining for the best price for a vehicle. 2011 does have its pitfalls, however if it was priced right, i would jump on that bandwagon no question about that (whats the warranty for even if its an old uncared for car). However who pays msrp for any car that isnt highly rare (even if its a rare car you get a deal, case in point my uncle who custom ordered his rr ghost, and still got a "deal") but this is an X3. But yea I dont think i was the highest bidder, im pretty sure i was the lowest bidder and thats why I got a no go. However im still wondering whether I should order an 2013 X5 barebones over a nearly fully speced 2013 X3. Love the options on X3, but the space on the X5 is amazing, and the dash looks more spacious. But yes if anyone wants to chime in, please do. All i know bout interior dimensions is that the 2nd gen X3 is nearly identical interior wise to a 1st gen X5.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
I think Chris got it the best. If i wanted to I`d take a 2013 custom ordered to my exact specs, however I`m one who likes to dabble in bargaining for the best price for a vehicle. 2011 does have its pitfalls, however if it was priced right, i would jump on that bandwagon no question about that (whats the warranty for even if its an old uncared for car). However who pays msrp for any car that isnt highly rare (even if its a rare car you get a deal, case in point my uncle who custom ordered his rr ghost, and still got a "deal") but this is an X3. But yea I dont think i was the highest bidder, im pretty sure i was the lowest bidder and thats why I got a no go. However im still wondering whether I should order an 2013 X5 barebones over a nearly fully speced 2013 X3. Love the options on X3, but the space on the X5 is amazing, and the dash looks more spacious. But yes if anyone wants to chime in, please do. All i know bout interior dimensions is that the 2nd gen X3 is nearly identical interior wise to a 1st gen X5.
I would take a bare bone 2013 X5 over an x3 any day and anytime. Maybe it's becauseI have two kids, two oversized car seats, and two strollers with rather large footprints. It's just more practical to me and you don't sacrifice BMW's driving dynamics by much.
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