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BMW Diesel Owners / Enthusiasts
Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #51  
Old 05-02-2012, 04:56 PM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithS View Post
M6pwr, You say you're not an expert but sounds like you know more than many of us (including the lab rats at Blackstone).

I agree that the BMW OCI is fine for some driving conditions such as for those who drive a lot, and routinely get the engine good and hot to burn off moisture and impurities. But if you are one to drive the car 5 miles each way to work every day and that's about it, the factory recommend OCI will only result in a badly sludged engine.

And while the engine is quite tough and durable, not so sure the turbochargers (bearings) that share that same oil are. So back to my original statement; the extra changes are probably not needed, but on a $50K+ car, it certainly will not hurt, and gives me a little more piece of mind.
Wow! That is mega severe service.

First (and I know this sounds crazy) but you might want to consider taking the long way to work. Really. Doing a commute of at least 15 mi each way. I know this sounds like bs, but that is what I do very often. I'm retired and often only have to drive 3 or 4 mi. to where I want to go. If I have to, I do three or four extra victory laps. My wife thinks I'm totally crazy - - she's trying to have me certified for commitment (for other reasons, actually) - - because I make her stand in the driveway for 15 or 20 minutes while I completely warm the car up doing my laps.

With your kind of driving profile, I'm not sure how you would even choose a safe oci. It would be a swag - - 7500 mi, 5000 mi, 3000 mi? I don't know that much about the oil condition sensor on the 335d. Some of them on the gas models are pretty sophisticated, but I don't know if I'd trust them in your case.

I'd recommend starting with oil analysis and using a lab like Polaris - http://www.polarislabs.com/. They are about the same price as Blackstone and they are ISO certified (which means that they have to keep their lab equipment peaked and tweeked, and have to have their lab pers trained to ISO standards) - - Blackstone is not and they have other differences that may be important in your case - - they are not so good on measuring fuel dilution, for example. I would talk to the folks in the Polaris oil analysis section, tell them your driving profile and get their ideas on what to look for in their reports. They have always been very helpful on the phone when I've had questions. I would guess that you would want to look at % fuel dilution and % water and I guess TBN/TAN, but they would know, and they would tell you how to interpret the reports.

To draw the oil samples (don't wait for your swag oil changes), you'll need an oil extractor kit to suck the oil sample up thru the dipstick tube (we're lucky, we still have a dipstick). I've never used one so I can't recommend a source off the top of my head. Maybe some of the other members have and can make a recommendation. If not, send me a pm and I'l see If I can find a place to get one.

Hope this helps.
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  #52  
Old 05-03-2012, 04:26 AM
KeithS KeithS is offline
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Hold on. I was just giving the 5 miles each way as an extreme example, that's not how we drive the car Right now we are in the order of 15K miles a year.

Actually my commute is 14 feet. I work from home

Unless the newest BMWs are different, the OCI is not all that sophisticated. I know for our 10 year old BMW's it's based on fuel consumption. The harder your drive the car, the shorter the OCI mileage will be. It seems as at least my D, is based purely on mileage as it is tracking to be exactly 13K miles.

I have been using the in-between oil changes for a decade on our gas BMWs. When the valve covers are pulled, they are almost sparkling clean inside. They are both at about 145K miles now.

And I am using a mighty-vac topsider for oil changes. It does require that you fix them when new before you can use it, so not necessarily a recommendation.

Cheers

Last edited by KeithS; 05-03-2012 at 04:29 AM.
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  #53  
Old 05-03-2012, 07:52 AM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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Well, you really had me going on a tear. I'm afraid I get down in the weeds when it comes to lubes - - a fascinating subject for me.

I used to do shortened oci's too for a long time (18 BMWs), back in the good old days of dino lubes and bias ply tires, and before BMWNA when the Monroney sticker on BMWs said Hoffman Motors. But man's understanding of how oil performs inside an internal combustion engine has improved significantly since then. Just remember that when you change the oil you are dumping lube that has reached an All-Pro level of performance with one that is a rank rookie that will take several thousand miles before it can figure out which way is up, particularly in combating wear - http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/. But, don't worry - - BMW motors are tough - - they can take the abuse of too frequent oil changes!

I believe in keeping the All-Pro in the lineup as long as possible.

Are you an F 1 fan? You plan on going to the Weehawken Grand Prix next year? I hope it takes place. The sound of a naturally-aspirated motor twisting at 19,000 rpm is unbelievable. And that'll be the last year for that sound. They're going to go V-6 turbos in 2014. The organizers of the F 1 race to take place this year in Austin, TX just announced ticket prices: grandstand tickets start at $2500. They must think it's the Super Bowl. I'll miss that one.
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  #54  
Old 05-03-2012, 10:26 AM
KeithS KeithS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6pwr View Post
Well, you really had me going on a tear. I'm afraid I get down in the weeds when it comes to lubes - - a fascinating subject for me.

I used to do shortened oci's too for a long time (18 BMWs), back in the good old days of dino lubes and bias ply tires, and before BMWNA when the Monroney sticker on BMWs said Hoffman Motors. But man's understanding of how oil performs inside an internal combustion engine has improved significantly since then. Just remember that when you change the oil you are dumping lube that has reached an All-Pro level of performance with one that is a rank rookie that will take several thousand miles before it can figure out which way is up, particularly in combating wear - http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/. But, don't worry - - BMW motors are tough - - they can take the abuse of too frequent oil changes!

I believe in keeping the All-Pro in the lineup as long as possible.

Are you an F 1 fan? You plan on going to the Weehawken Grand Prix next year? I hope it takes place. The sound of a naturally-aspirated motor twisting at 19,000 rpm is unbelievable. And that'll be the last year for that sound. They're going to go V-6 turbos in 2014. The organizers of the F 1 race to take place this year in Austin, TX just announced ticket prices: grandstand tickets start at $2500. They must think it's the Super Bowl. I'll miss that one.
Can't think that far ahead to consider the Weehawkin GP (about 35 miles from where I live). But if tickets are $2500, I do not have to think about it at all!

Back to oil. I fully agree the oil, in itself, is good for the mileage indicated by BMW. But it's what the oil is holding, which in the case of the diesel includes suspended soot, that I am concerned about. Have seen way too many examples of OCI driven oil changes with short driving distances to yield an engine that is nothing but a solid block of goo when the valve cover is removed. And as I said before, we now have delicate turbo bearings to worry about. I might be convinced to do 10K miles, but 13K is getting past my comfort zone.

I maintain my cars as if I will be keeping them forever. I buy, do not lease, When maintenance is all on me, I may do the 10K. But for now when there are the included changes at 13K, if going to do extra ones, makes most sense to do it 1/2 between.

This is what I am talking about. My 2000 328i with 140K miles (which I recently gave to my son making room for the D), BMW synthetic every 8K miles. Nothing was cleaned for the picture (cover gasket still stuck to the head)




Last edited by KeithS; 05-03-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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  #55  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:10 AM
taibanl taibanl is offline
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GREAT thread
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  #56  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:55 PM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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[QUOTE=KeithS;6812129]Can't think that far ahead to consider the Weehawkin GP (about 35 miles from where I live). But if tickets are $2500, I do not have to think about it at all!

The 328 motor look great.

I read that the expected price for the NJ GP will be approx $350 for the 3 day weekend. I hope they hit that target. It's competitive with the Canadian GP in Montreal. If you've never been to an F1 race, it's a great experience. Not just the cars (which are otherworldly) but all the different people you meet - - people from all over the world come to see F1 and I think the added allure of NYC will bring a great many.
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  #57  
Old 05-04-2012, 10:54 AM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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I just re-read some of the uoa's in this thread and think they are great. Ekay's uoa (the oil was run to 11,355 mi.) is particularly of interest and confirms in my mind that taking the oil out to the cbs oil change interval is possible. Ekay's uoa is really very good. That oil was in great shape and still had reserve TBN. I'd bet that if Ekay had done a uoa on this oil at around 3 or 4k, it would have been substantially the same, except with higher TBN of course. Just my theory. I'd take Blackstone's comments about the wear metals with a grain of salt. As someone noted above, interpretation of wear metals can be tricky. Even so, the wear metals look great - - even the ppm iron (you should see some of the iron counts on the VW TDI board on euro TDI's which are run to 18k mi oci's).

I hope I wasn't out of line, but I sent an email to the forum admin recommending that this thread be made a sticky, as a central place so we can continue to post our uoa's.
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  #58  
Old 05-08-2012, 10:21 AM
wanderlust wanderlust is offline
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Does TBN have to go to 0 for TAN to start increasing?
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  #59  
Old 05-08-2012, 01:51 PM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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I have to reiterate, I'm no expert, but I'll try to explain what I know. The short answer is no - - the TBN should never be allowed to reach 0 and the TAN starts to build well before the TBN ever reaches 0.

TAN is the concentration of acid products in the oil. It is not a measure of the acidity of the oil as if it were an acid bath. Nevertheless, if TAN gets high enough, corrosive wear can take place. With modern oils, fresh, unused oil can have an acid number/TAN right out of the bottle because it contains some acid products - - some of the additives are acidic, particularly magnesium which is being used increasingly as an antacid in place of calcium (which lays down more unwanted deposits). In addition to these acid products in the oil, the acid number begins to build as soon as the oil is in use. Oxidation and nitration will raise the TAN as the oil ages.

TBN or total base number is a measure of the reserve alkalinity of the oil - - its ability to neutralize or take up acidic components in the oil. The TBN starts to drop as soon as the oil is in use.

Now comes the question of how do you use these numbers (and other key indicators in the used oil analysis) to figure out when to change the oil (the so-called condemnation point). By coincidence there's an article on just this topic in the May issue of Tribology and Lubrication Technology magazine. The bottom line: there's no agreement at all on this. There are three "players" in this discussion: the oil analysis labs, the lube mfrs, and the engine mfrs. The labs will give you their cp's when they do your used oil analysis (uoa). The labs don't all agree on the same cp's. The engine mfrs and the lube mfrs do a lot of collaborative testing/research to come up with their cp's for a specific engine but these are not widely published - - they are in effect hidden in the oem's prescribed oil change interval and the oil life monitors/software, if so equipped. The oem's cp's are probably the best.

There's an interesting discussion of this topic here - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1675009. Doug Hillary (one of the commenters in the thread) is a very experienced euro-based lubrication engineer who has decades of experience with Castrol and Mobil. He knows some of the oem's cp's. The cp Hillary uses for TAN/TBN "see saw" as he calls it is TAN = 6, TBN = 2.
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  #60  
Old 05-10-2012, 04:20 PM
railroader railroader is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m6pwr View Post

First (and I know this sounds crazy) but you might want to consider taking the long way to work. Really. Doing a commute of at least 15 mi each way. I know this sounds like bs, but that is what I do very often. I'm retired and often only have to drive 3 or 4 mi. to where I want to go. If I have to, I do three or four extra victory laps. My wife thinks I'm totally crazy - - she's trying to have me certified for commitment (for other reasons, actually) - - because I make her stand in the driveway for 15 or 20 minutes while I completely warm the car up doing my laps.
.
Thanks for this nugget of oil-wisdom, m6pwr. You've made me a "convert."
I admit to a few occasions of doing the harmful short commute, such as running
my GF to the light rail stop 5 mi. away. I now will take her all the way to her
job in the 335d; about a 20 mile one way run. As I should have been doing for her
all along, anyway-- if I was a true gentleman! ---->

Yes, this is a GREAT thread- esp. for the oil neophytes out here, such as myself...
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  #61  
Old 05-10-2012, 08:44 PM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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Thanks for this nugget of oil-wisdom, m6pwr. You've made me a "convert."
I admit to a few occasions of doing the harmful short commute, such as running
my GF to the light rail stop 5 mi. away. I now will take her all the way to her
job in the 335d; about a 20 mile one way run. As I should have been doing for her
all along, anyway-- if I was a true gentleman! ---->

Yes, this is a GREAT thread- esp. for the oil neophytes out here, such as myself...
Glad you found it helpful.
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  #62  
Old 05-12-2012, 01:19 PM
railroader railroader is offline
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Glad you found it helpful.
Thanks m6-- the only problem is she thinks I'm nuts when I tell her I go
"the long way round" when I deliver her to these short distance locales;
I've found a dandy 15 miles fun freeway run with a few big cloverleafs, etc.
that I now use to run the car properly. I've explained "moisture in the oil"
in great technical fashion including undulating oil chemistries, etc. She still
thinks it a bit "eccentric." I've been called worse! The car is fun to drive;
let's just drive it, eh?
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  #63  
Old 02-19-2013, 11:20 AM
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Guys,

I've contacted Blackstone Oil Lab and spoke with Ryan Stark about gathering up all of the 335D and X5D oil analyses. He would look into it and advise.

Meantime, if you have done any oil analysis, please post them here so we can start gathering the data and compare in a more scientific manner.

And if you are thinking of doing it, let us know and let Ryan Stark know you are from the Bimmerfest Diesel Owner's Group.
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  #64  
Old 02-23-2013, 07:36 AM
SennaVProst SennaVProst is offline
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Here's my oil report at 23k miles.

This is really an awesome collection of data, having this online community seriously makes me rest easier.
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  #65  
Old 02-23-2013, 11:56 AM
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Senna,

How are you taking your oil sample? You have a pump kit?

I just ordered one from BS for $30. key is to take the sample while the engine oil is still hot.

I'm at about 600 miles since my last oil change so waiting to reach 1,000 miles to take my first.

Your sample looks pretty good but i'm a bit confused about your oil viscosity. Was it too high to be a 5W30 or was it closer to a 10W60?

The high Iron may really not be an issue given the high miles on the oil. Iron is going to gradually accumulate over time and i suspect it might even be a bit linear based on miles on the oil. The key is really particles, size, and distribution, which this analysis doesn't really look at.
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  #66  
Old 02-23-2013, 12:09 PM
SennaVProst SennaVProst is offline
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Since I'm still under warranty, I gave the bottle to the SA at my dealer. I'm not sure how it was extracted precisely and it's likely that the engine was cold (January in the Northeast).

See my other thread on the confusion between 5W30 and 10W60. On an older receipt it had listed that 10W-60 was put in, but the oil test verified that it was indeed 5W-30.
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  #67  
Old 02-23-2013, 12:15 PM
taibanl taibanl is offline
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What do you think of the CBS for the occasional track user (1-3x/year). Obviously the CBS adjusts downward for more severe use, but last track session the oil had a bit of a burnt smell on the dipstick.

Right now I am doing have interval self-pay changes.
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  #68  
Old 02-23-2013, 12:41 PM
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If you are tracking I'd say that the OCI is out the window. That would be worse than severe use for sure.

Half intervals is something like 6-7k, you probably need to be down in the 3-4k.

Oil testing would help tell you but if your racing the car, I'd say just change the oil much more frequently.

I do not have any racing experience to base this opinion on however.
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  #69  
Old 02-23-2013, 02:59 PM
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Nevermind...

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  #70  
Old 02-25-2013, 12:38 PM
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Black stone lab results

Guys,

Black Stone sent me their data on all M57 and N57 Engine Oil Analysis. I've attached a pdf but I have the excel file for anyone that wants to play around with the data.

Looks like they get both US and European cars. Shouldn't make a big difference in results.

Give me a shout if you would like the excel file, unless someone can explain how i can upload it here.

Looking at the data it is interesting see a few things:
1. A few folks are inputting 7 or 8 qts of added oil for topping off, which is not correct, so you have to basically ignore that info.
2. Very few folks are having to top off or they aren't reporting it. I've never topped off but have had low oil level just prior to an oil change.
3. A few have seen some fuel dilution but it does not appear to get worse with miles on the oil.
4. And most surprisingly, I trended the viscosity over miles and the viscosity does not increase, at all, over increased miles.
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Last edited by Flyingman; 02-25-2013 at 01:56 PM.
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  #71  
Old 02-25-2013, 03:20 PM
SennaVProst SennaVProst is offline
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Can you upload it to somewhere like min.us?

I'd be interested to see the data plotted against miles.
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  #72  
Old 02-25-2013, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SennaVProst View Post
Can you upload it to somewhere like min.us?

I'd be interested to see the data plotted against miles.
Senna,

I'm currently correcting the data for kilometers vs. miles, qts ve.s liters, etc.... As I stated before the data is all over the map due to inconsitency in input. trying to fix that.

Plus some of the data is entered as text so it won't graph, so have to convert that as well.

I'm working these details and expect to have true data in Excel by tomorrow.

Send me your email and I'll forward it to you.

Mine is tito.giron@libertyiu.com
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  #73  
Old 02-25-2013, 05:25 PM
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So here are the trends I have graphed out:

1. Viscosity remains "unchanged" vs. miles of the oil. I find this most remarkable.
2. Only three vehicles exceeded 12k miles, the highest was 16,250 miles on a European car.
3. Three (3) cars have exceeded 100k total miles, with the highest at 182,500.
4. Average Iron is 60ppm with the highest at 147ppm on a new vehicle with 8,000 miles on oil and car.
5. Iron does increase in a linear fashion from 20ppm for new oil to 90ppm for older oil and appears to level off. This does not mean your engine is wearing at a greater rate as the oil gets older. It is merely accumulating in the oil as there is no way for it to leave.
6. Al appears to react the same as Iron, starting at about 5ppm in newer oil and increasing to about 12ppm in older oil.
7. Cu is also flat, actually decreasing very slightly with miles at about 13ppm.
8. Additive package is not very much affected, with Ca (Calcium) dropping slightly from 2,400ppm for newer oil and 1,800 in the older oil, so about a 25% depletion over the life of the oil. This should translate well with TBN which is not reported here.
9. Zinc was all over the map so I suspect the lab has an issue with repeatability.
10. Insolubles, which should be fuel soot, is also not trending up with time.
11. None of the samples showed water or antifreeze contamination.

Folks, to be honest I'm not seeing any particular issue or problem with lube oil not standing up to the OCI advertised for these vehicles. There are those 2 or 3 vehicles that have fuel dilution which I'm not sure how you would detect this without doing oil analysis.

Hopefully we can gather more data and I do plan to track my oil over the next OCI at various points in order to trend it.

I think we have enough data points now to demonstrate conclusively that the 13k OCI is really a "non problem".
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Last edited by Flyingman; 02-26-2013 at 12:49 PM.
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  #74  
Old 02-26-2013, 12:51 PM
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Some responses to questions I sent to Black Stone Lab:


Very interesting data. In actuality the viscosity does not decay over time, it remains flat line. Says a lot about the quality of these engines and the oil they use.

As I suspected you get some garbage data, like 7 and 8 qt oil top offs, not likely.

Yes, in those cases, we suspect our customers are giving us engine sump size and not make-up oil added between changes.

I see the additive package, Ca, drops about 25% over the OCI. You don?t show TBN, is that inherent with the additive package? If so which of the elements?

No, not all of the samples got a TBN and it's also hard to separate that reading out on a spreadsheet like this so I excluded it. The starting TBN level is directly related to the calcium level, but after an oil is used, the TBN will drop, and there is no way to derive that reading based on this data alone.

Three cases of fuel dilution, no water or coolant contamination.

Iron remains quite high on these engines, averaging 90ppm. Is there any explanation for this? It tracks linearly which I would expect is normal, same as Al.

Yes, iron does normally track with miles/km use on the oil, but that's the only element that does. Aluminum tends to read high when these engines are new, but then drops off after that.


Can you tell me what is the viscosity of new standard 5W30 LL-04 synthetic oil?

The viscosity range for that oil is 9.1 to 11.3 cSt @ 100C


Why is Zinc all over the map? I would expect this would be part of the additive package and fairly consistent, but it isn?t.

That engine uses a really unique factory fill oil. You will only see the low zinc on initial samples from new engines. I'm not sure what the advantage of that additive package is.
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  #75  
Old 02-26-2013, 06:05 PM
SennaVProst SennaVProst is offline
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Mein Auto: '11 335d
Wow, really excellent analysis. Thank you so much for putting your time into it. Much much much appreciated.
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