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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #26  
Old 06-02-2012, 11:58 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scar View Post
Hey just checking back on this thread and it looks like there is a conflict between quote/link Ard posted and your legal opinion. Does resale ( used status) trump "express warranty" in #2 in Ard post above?

Fortunately have not had to become an expert on Maine lemon law! I have a high threshold for suffering.
i think buckeye is getting bad advice.... i quote the tenesse statute.

Plus there is Moss Magnussen, a Federal law.
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Last edited by ard; 06-03-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2012, 05:15 AM
scar scar is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
i think buckeye is getting bad advice.... i quote the tenesse statute.

Plus there is Moss Magnussen, a Federal law.
There is plenty of bad legal advice out there. You more or less get what you pay for if it comes with credentials, references and good chemistry. Unless there is some equally clear weasel language that taketh away what Ard quote seems to give you might want to do some due diligence at an expensive firm with lemon law a dedicated part of their practice and get them to opine. 500 or a thousand bucks worth the peaceful sleep, at least it wpold be for me.
Good luck!
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2012, 02:19 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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The advice I am getting is from my wifes sister (who is an attorney and her husband who is also an attorney). They said that each states has their own rules that govern a lemon law. The manufacturer is liable for three things under a warranty, repair, replace, refund. If the car did not come with an implied warranty, then there would be recourse,,,however, since I purchased the car with a warranty, the manufacturer has to satisfy one of the three "r's". In Tennessee as well as numerous other states, the law states the a used car cannot qualify as a lemon. Californis is a state that has a provision for a used vehicle to be provisioned as a lemon. Too bad I don't live there!!! If all else fails, the car being in the shop for XXXX days, BMW has to absorb the warranty labor and parts so far, then they have a choice to continue to try and repair the vehicle or as a good will gesture give $$$ toward the purchase of a new vehicle, or used vehicle. I don't know, never been this far before is a repair situation,,,but I'll find out before the week is over!!!

Last edited by buckeyewalt; 06-03-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2012, 02:35 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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Quote that I received........


At the core of most lemon laws is the manufacturer's breach of warranty. A manufacturer's warranty is what makes the manufacturer legally responsible for repairs to the consumer's vehicle or good. It is a form of guarantee. An express warranty is typically a written warranty. An implied warranty unlike an express warranty, is not written. The law imposes these obligations on the manufacturer, the seller or both as a matter of public policy. These vary from state to state. [1]

Although each state imposes different requirements for their own consumer lemon laws, a basic condition common to virtually all jurisdictions is that in order for the lemon law to apply, the automobile or product must have been purchased with a warranty.[2] Products purchased on an "as is" or "with all faults" basis are typically not covered by state or federal lemon laws.
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  #30  
Old 06-04-2012, 09:11 AM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyewalt View Post
Quote that I received........


At the core of most lemon laws is the manufacturer's breach of warranty. A manufacturer's warranty is what makes the manufacturer legally responsible for repairs to the consumer's vehicle or good. It is a form of guarantee. An express warranty is typically a written warranty. An implied warranty unlike an express warranty, is not written. The law imposes these obligations on the manufacturer, the seller or both as a matter of public policy. These vary from state to state. [1]

Although each state imposes different requirements for their own consumer lemon laws, a basic condition common to virtually all jurisdictions is that in order for the lemon law to apply, the automobile or product must have been purchased with a warranty.[2] Products purchased on an "as is" or "with all faults" basis are typically not covered by state or federal lemon laws.
You DID buy it with a warranty!

The BMW warranty is transferred to any and all subsequent owners during the warranty period.

Like I said, bad advice....from a canned response.
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  #31  
Old 06-04-2012, 12:03 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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ARD,,,,your are correct 100%,,,,when I purchased the vehicle is did transfer with the BMW warranty. Under the warranty their obligation is to repair, replace,refund in short,,,,according to state/local laws. In Claif., you could demand a replacement even used vehicles (lemon law) but in Tennessee, unless you are the original owner, you can't,,,not a canned response but fact. I gave you verse, out of the Tennessee law, I also gave a legal opinion which you say is "bad" advise. This of this like internet sales tax,,some states require the company to collect it most don't, unless the company you are buying it from on the internet has a brick and mortar store in that state. As a final gesture, I even called the BMW dealer, and he also confirmed that Tennessee does not have a lemon law for used vehicles (2nd owner).
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  #32  
Old 06-04-2012, 01:48 PM
scar scar is offline
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I can't look away. See link below. Nothing about new or used but it does have a statement that action must commence within one year of delivery or end of warranty whichever comes first. Check your calendar.

http://tn.gov/consumer/lemon.shtml

Good luck!
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  #33  
Old 06-04-2012, 04:45 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by buckeyewalt View Post
ARD,,,,your are correct 100%,,,,when I purchased the vehicle is did transfer with the BMW warranty. Under the warranty their obligation is to repair, replace,refund in short,,,,according to state/local laws. In Claif., you could demand a replacement even used vehicles (lemon law) but in Tennessee, unless you are the original owner, you can't,,,not a canned response but fact. I gave you verse, out of the Tennessee law, I also gave a legal opinion which you say is "bad" advise. This of this like internet sales tax,,some states require the company to collect it most don't, unless the company you are buying it from on the internet has a brick and mortar store in that state. As a final gesture, I even called the BMW dealer, and he also confirmed that Tennessee does not have a lemon law for used vehicles (2nd owner).
I am reading your 'legal opinion' and it clearly says YOU have a lemon warranty. AS long as the current owner is covered under the MFG warranty, the lemon law applies.

You gave me a summary...I quoted the TN law. As long as you are covered under the warranty the lemon law should apply...


I went to LexisNexis and read the text of the TN law (not the blurb on the website you found) and it makes no distinction about how the current owner acquired a car under the new car warranty....

Why not call the TN department of consumer affairs, WITH the text of the law in hand, and ask? Don't call it a used car- say 'new car, second owner- with a new car warranty'

Quote:
55-24-107. Statute of limitations.

(a) Any action brought under this chapter shall be commenced within six (6) months following:

(1) Expiration of the express warranty term; or

(2) One (1) year following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to a consumer, whichever is the later date.
Above I find it curious that the law says LATER date, and these websites say 'earlier'... hmmm


Anyway, just trying to help....

A
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  #34  
Old 06-05-2012, 06:46 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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Ard,,,I know that you guys have the best interest involved,,and I really appreciate all of the help.but I called the Consumers Affairs Division,,,and they pointed out their websi=te that spells it all.....being a yankee this southern gal was rude,,,but not matter...here it is........ first paragraph,,,,about the third sentence....
Thanks for your help ARD,,,scar....but unless you guys know someone inside at BMW that could help.....I just have to wait it out.!!!

Consumer Affairs DivisionConsumer Affairs Division


The Lemon Law


To view the law in its entirety, please visit www.michie.com and search for [Title 55, Chapter 24 - Motor Vehicle Warranties, Part 2].



WHAT IS A LEMON?



A "Lemon" is a motor vehicle sold or leased after January 1, 1987, that has a defect or condition that substantially impairs the motor vehicle; and the manufacturer, its agent, or authorized dealer cannot repair the vehicle after three attempts or the vehicle is out of service for repairs for a cumulative total of 30 or more days during the term of protection. This Law is only applicable if the vehicle was bought new. Under the statute, the manufacturer must replace the motor vehicle or refund the purchase price (less a reasonable allowance for use).



"Substantially impair" means to render a motor vehicle unreliable or unsafe for normal operation, or to reduce its resale market value below the average resale value for comparable motor vehicles.

The term of protection is defined as one year from the date of original delivery or the term of the warranty, whichever comes first.



The Law is unclear about whether you have to have reported your problem during the "term of protection" in order to have a claim under the "Lemon Law." The Division has adopted the view that the problem essentially has to be reported within the first year or within the term of the warranty, whichever comes first.



WHAT SHOULD I DO IF I HAVE A LEMON?



If you have a lemon, you must notify the manufacturer of the problem in writing by certified mail. The manufacturer has an additional opportunity to repair your car within 10 days. If the manufacturer cannot repair your car and the manufacturer has an informal dispute settlement procedure that complies with Federal Trade Commission regulations, the refund and replacement provisions of the Lemon Law won't apply until you submit to the procedure. You are not bound by the decision and can still seek available legal remedies, including asking a court to award a replacement vehicle or reimbursement of the purchase price (less a reasonable allowance for use), plus attorney fees and court costs.



WHEN CAN I TAKE ACTION?



You can file a law suit at anytime within one year from the date of original delivery of your car or within six months from the expiration of your expressed warranty, whichever is later. Extended warranties are not considered. You should consult an attorney well before the expiration of your time limit to be sure of preserving your legal rights.
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  #35  
Old 06-05-2012, 08:31 PM
ard ard is offline
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The text on the website and the LAW appear to be at odds. Just like they say 'sooner' on the website and 'later' in the law.

The law says it applies to anyone who has a new car warranty. The website says something different. The car WAS bought new, just not bough new by you.

I may call them up and press them on it. Chances are the gal you spoke to didn't graduate highschool. Sometimes it can be a battle to show stupid people the rules their bosses point them at are, in fact, in error. We'll see...
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Last edited by ard; 06-05-2012 at 08:32 PM.
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  #36  
Old 06-11-2012, 06:54 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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UPDATE*****-- The dealer installed the module that was under the seat plus a different wiring harness. Both of these had to be flown in from Germany as there were none in the States. I thought for sure that this would be the cure,,,,,,,,,,NOPE,,,,they installed the parts,,,let the vehicle sit over the weekend,,still have the battery discharge issue. At the dealers request, I called BMW customer service,,, and basically told them that after 6 weeks of this,,, I'm about ready to pack it in. After several questions he wanted to know what I expected,,I told them that I will buy a new BMW X5,,,BUT I expect one hell of a discount and trade in on mine. Since I never had to do this with any of my other vehicles,,I really don't know what to expect..he said that he would get back to me in 3-5 days!

Does anyone have experience going through customer service with this type of request,,,and what were the results,,,or how accommodating were they....!!
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  #37  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:38 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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UPDATE**** I think that this is getting close to being resolved either way,,,it being fixed or a new vehicle. The dealer ordered and just installed the vehicles complete CIC unit don't really know what all is involved with "complete" though,,,really didn't ask. So far, the dealer has over 45 hours in actual labor in the vehicle (@85.00) per......not counting parts and such. The dealer told me that the CIC goes to sleep, but somehow wakes up but does not turn on anything on in the vehicle???? I will know something by early next week.......
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  #38  
Old 06-16-2012, 04:35 AM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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BMW's are crap quality. Look at the orange peel paint jobs they put on the cars.

My next car will not be BMW.

Last edited by RockChips; 06-16-2012 at 04:36 AM.
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  #39  
Old 06-16-2012, 06:23 AM
georgejm georgejm is offline
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BMW's are crap quality. Look at the orange peel paint jobs they put on the cars.

My next car will not be BMW.
Life is a big circle.
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  #40  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:03 AM
ard ard is offline
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Just rented a black 2012 Infiniti FX35 for two days. Remarkable paint. Swirls all over from being a Hertz rental, but flat from the factory!
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  #41  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:32 AM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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Life is a big circle.


If anything life is super linear.

We get older. Technology progresses. Etc.
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  #42  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:28 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Other than the remarkable flat paint -- it can be done without orange peel -- how did you like the FX35? I suspect the FX50 would have been even more "entertaining" but those are not found in the normal rental fleet!
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  #43  
Old 06-18-2012, 04:58 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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***UPDATE*** I hope some of these are helpful to those who might/have the same issure that I have. Well,,,,,the CIC was installed and ,,,,still the same....hopeful,,,they and BMW enginers are working together and according to BMW,,"they are using all of their resources to get this fixed". They finally think that they might have solved the issue(how many time have I said that?)...the JBA module/computer the one that has to recognize the key FOB and make the changes and adjustments for each driver,,,is constantly on. I asked then how can it tell which driver is going to operaate the vehicle if it didn't stay on,,,,,,,,,no good response. If they have th part in stock, they are going to ship it overnight,,and he said that it should be a quick installation,,,,,,we'll see!
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  #44  
Old 06-18-2012, 05:30 PM
georgejm georgejm is offline
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If anything life is super linear.

We get older. Technology progresses. Etc.
Right, if you live long enough let me know that super linear feeling when someone is wiping your backend and helping you stand up, super linear lol.
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  #45  
Old 06-18-2012, 05:36 PM
ard ard is offline
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***UPDATE*** I hope some of these are helpful to those who might/have the same issure that I have. Well,,,,,the CIC was installed and ,,,,still the same....hopeful,,,they and BMW enginers are working together and according to BMW,,"they are using all of their resources to get this fixed". They finally think that they might have solved the issue(how many time have I said that?)...the JBA module/computer the one that has to recognize the key FOB and make the changes and adjustments for each driver,,,is constantly on. I asked then how can it tell which driver is going to operaate the vehicle if it didn't stay on,,,,,,,,,no good response. If they have th part in stock, they are going to ship it overnight,,and he said that it should be a quick installation,,,,,,we'll see!
All these modules are supposed to 'sleep'...they may draw microamps when sleeping, which is still enough to sniff for your key and power up when it sees the key come near. BUT, if it is fully on 24/7 this will run down the battery.

WHY it has taken them so long to diagnose this is astonishing.... SOP is to monitor bus traffic and draw and look at how all the modules drop off and go to sleep..... afaik, BMW has a written TSB to deal with this precise diagnosis.
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  #46  
Old 06-18-2012, 07:01 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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All these modules are supposed to 'sleep'...they may draw microamps when sleeping, which is still enough to sniff for your key and power up when it sees the key come near. BUT, if it is fully on 24/7 this will run down the battery.

WHY it has taken them so long to diagnose this is astonishing.... SOP is to monitor bus traffic and draw and look at how all the modules drop off and go to sleep..... afaik, BMW has a written TSB to deal with this precise diagnosis.
As to why they have taken soooo long,,,really I don't know why,,,except all I hear from them is that they are following BMW's recomended procedure in tracking down the battery drain.....really ARD,,,after I heard this,,I too wondered why it took so long to diagnose the issue,,,this seems like one of the first places I would look too,,,just sayin'
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  #47  
Old 06-23-2012, 01:31 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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delete

Last edited by buckeyewalt; 06-23-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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  #48  
Old 06-23-2012, 02:07 PM
buckeyewalt buckeyewalt is offline
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UPDATE******* Well they installed the comfort access module and still have the discharge issue. Whe they took it on an extended ride and over-night stay,,,they found out that there is zero battery draw when the vehicle shuts down,,,,somehow,,one module is waking up and and telling the car to turn the start button and turn on the interior lights,,,,sounds goofy,,,but they have done this several times.............there is already a PUMA case opened on this vehicle and you wouldn't believe the amount of parts already replaced,,,not counting labor. The issue that is bugging the most is when the battery discharge alert comes up,,,and they turn the engine off,,,the alert does not come up again,,,however, after the vehicle sits for a few hours,,,and then it is started,,the battery discharge come up and at the time of the message,,the battery voltage was 12.4v. Thats when the CID was replaced. One strange thing,,they found water/moisture ingress in the JBE,,which they replaced the module then and cleaaned aall of the pins and connectors. After they replaced everything involved with the JBE including the wiring harness,,,the service manager took it home,,let the vehicle sit for 30 minutes in between 4 hours of driving,,,,,,let it sit over night the battery discharge message was on. They found 0 faults stored in the vehicle, They took the CID out and found that the wires had masking tape and duct tape on them, however, nothing was replaced, everything was still OEM specific to the vehicle and VIN,,,there were no signs of any water/flood damage to any panels, carpet, leather, or anything that would indicate that this vehicle was damaged. They still asre going to try and fix it,,,they must have well over $10,000 parts (I have the complete service write-up so far) in the vehicle,,,,somewhere there haas got to be a point where you say "forget-it"....

Last edited by buckeyewalt; 06-23-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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