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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 06-21-2012, 12:33 AM
2008550I 2008550I is offline
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2012 Power Quality Rankings

Anyone see the 2012 Power quality rankings?

1 Lexus
2 Jag
3 Porsche
4 Cadillac
5 Honda
6 Acura
7 Infiniti
8 Toyota
9 Mercedes
10 BMW
11 Mazda
12 GMC
13 Nissan
14 Ram
15 Chevrolet
16 Audi
17 Buick
18 Hyndai
19 Kia
20 Lincoln
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  #2  
Old 06-21-2012, 04:18 AM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is online now
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To have any real meaning we'd have to see model by model rankings.

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  #3  
Old 06-21-2012, 04:52 AM
kc1953 kc1953 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2008550I View Post
Anyone see the 2012 Power quality rankings?

1 Lexus
2 Jag
3 Porsche
4 Cadillac
5 Honda
6 Acura
7 Infiniti
8 Toyota
9 Mercedes
10 BMW
11 Mazda
12 GMC
13 Nissan
14 Ram
15 Chevrolet
16 Audi
17 Buick
18 Hyndai
19 Kia
20 Lincoln
Seeing Jaguar at 2 is a bit of an eye opener.
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:02 AM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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Is this the initial quality survey?
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2012, 05:02 AM
whitby whitby is online now
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Is this the J D Power IQS ratings? I have ignored these since they started including whether people knew how to use the car controls and not just whether the car worked as designed. e.g. the iDrive started to give BMW a black eye in these ratings simply because people did not know how to use it.

I have a Jag as well as a BMW and find their position as number 2 surprising as well!!
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  #6  
Old 06-21-2012, 05:37 AM
daikyu daikyu is offline
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Whitby,

You and I both. I have a 2009 XF Supercharged. We couldn't bear to part with it so we traded in something else on our 2012 550Xi. Our Jag has had it's share of gremlins, I believe the newer models had most of those things worked out.
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:00 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitby View Post
Is this the J D Power IQS ratings? I have ignored these since they started including whether people knew how to use the car controls and not just whether the car worked as designed. e.g. the iDrive started to give BMW a black eye in these ratings simply because people did not know how to use it.

I have a Jag as well as a BMW and find their position as number 2 surprising as well!!
I just read an article this morning and agree with you. They say that this does not mean the customer had to have something repaired, they just might not like a feature of the car. I did not know that before, and it makes the survey extremely deceptive. I'm sure most people who read this rankings don't understand that.

BTW, I have a friend with a 2010 XJ supercharged and he would not agree with it either, although he loves Jags and has a XKR on order for his wife right now.
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:50 AM
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This is the JD Power 2012 long term, 3 years, relaibility survey for 2009 vehicles, look at where Jaguar is, they are rated 5th to last. I dont find these JD power IQS ratings too useful either, but the long term relaibility survey are much more accurate. I also notice that Porsche and Cadillac are making themself a home up there in the top 5 lately :
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2012, 07:17 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
This is the JD Power 2012 long term, 3 years, relaibility survey for 2009 vehicles, look at where Jaguar is, they are rated 5th to last. I dont find these JD power IQS ratings too useful either, but the long term relaibility survey are much more accurate. I also notice that Porsche and Cadillac are making themself a home up there in the top 5 lately :
I would agree with you about longer term being more useful except that it doesn't really tell you whether the manufacturer has made improvements in the interim. I still would find it useful though. What I think they should do is revamp the 90 day survey to only include actual quality problems with the car to mean that a repair was required, not just that people don't like how something on the car works.
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2012, 08:17 AM
dmunz dmunz is offline
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BUt aside from Power, how would you capture initial quality issues? When we took delivery of our 2012 GT everything seemed fine at the dealership. There were even two copies of the dealer checklist in the glovebox (one from my dealer and one from the delaer they traded from to get it.)

When we got home we found that three of the four doors didn't close properly. I ended up having to take it back and drive a dealer loaner for two days.

If I'm looking at stats I don't care about statisfaction after the delaer getes a chance to fix it. I can about problems that occur and cause me to have to make a trip to the dealer.

FWIW
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PS. The door problem required a hardware adjustment on the drivers side front door, the passenger side rear door fixed itself and the passanger side front door still has an issue where the very top corner of the glass meets the rubber seal. They can't really do anything about it, it is just a matter of the rubber wearing in. (It makes sense if you look at it and it had gotten better over time.)
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  #11  
Old 06-21-2012, 08:38 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunz View Post
BUt aside from Power, how would you capture initial quality issues? When we took delivery of our 2012 GT everything seemed fine at the dealership. There were even two copies of the dealer checklist in the glovebox (one from my dealer and one from the delaer they traded from to get it.)

When we got home we found that three of the four doors didn't close properly. I ended up having to take it back and drive a dealer loaner for two days.

If I'm looking at stats I don't care about statisfaction after the delaer getes a chance to fix it. I can about problems that occur and cause me to have to make a trip to the dealer.

FWIW
DLM

PS. The door problem required a hardware adjustment on the drivers side front door, the passenger side rear door fixed itself and the passanger side front door still has an issue where the very top corner of the glass meets the rubber seal. They can't really do anything about it, it is just a matter of the rubber wearing in. (It makes sense if you look at it and it had gotten better over time.)
That's the point - you don't have a way of knowing because of how they do their surveys to include features the customers just don't like or know how to use.

There are quite a few things I would bitch about on a survey about what I don't like about the car, but that would not mean a hell of a lot in an "initial quality survey", and it would not be fair to people who don't agree with me about the same features.
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  #12  
Old 06-21-2012, 08:50 AM
2008550I 2008550I is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg1871 View Post
Is this the initial quality survey?
Yes!
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  #13  
Old 06-21-2012, 09:26 AM
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IQS is a joke
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  #14  
Old 06-21-2012, 09:40 AM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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IQS is a joke
Agree 100 percent. Long term reliability is the key marker.
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  #15  
Old 06-21-2012, 10:21 AM
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This is ridiculous.

They have "RAM" listed on there. That is the only model they have listed.
Does this include Dodge as a whole (I would hope not)?
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  #16  
Old 06-21-2012, 10:34 AM
dpritchett dpritchett is online now
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The survey is what it is ... The press release did point out how much mechanical improvement there has been in car quality, so that dissatisfaction with technology features is now a major complaint that impacts the IQS scores.

For example , Ford is sending owners of their vehicles with the voice sync system a USB drive with a software update because of customer complaints. They estimate about 70% can install it themselves, another set of people can do it with help from a family member or friend, and that less then 10 percent will have to go to the dealer to have it installed.
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  #17  
Old 06-21-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
I just read an article this morning and agree with you. They say that this does not mean the customer had to have something repaired, they just might not like a feature of the car. I did not know that before, and it makes the survey extremely deceptive. I'm sure most people who read this rankings don't understand that.

BTW, I have a friend with a 2010 XJ supercharged and he would not agree with it either, although he loves Jags and has a XKR on order for his wife right now.
That was first year of production. Lots of issues. The same was true for early 2011 F10s. In fact several forum members lemoned their 2011 F10s which were bought in 2010.
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
I just read an article this morning and agree with you. They say that this does not mean the customer had to have something repaired, they just might not like a feature of the car. I did not know that before, and it makes the survey extremely deceptive. I'm sure most people who read this rankings don't understand that.

BTW, I have a friend with a 2010 XJ supercharged and he would not agree with it either, although he loves Jags and has a XKR on order for his wife right now.
Exactly.

Ford's dropping because people can't figure out how to use My Ford Touch. That is the truth and Ford is working hard to recover their ranking because of it.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kc1953 View Post
Seeing Jaguar at 2 is a bit of an eye opener.
TATA motors did what Ford couldn't do.

Freakin' shocker.
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:46 PM
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I seriously doubt these surveys mean much. If they did, BMW would not sell any cars and we would all be driving ugly Lexotas.

A few years ago VW was last, oh and then they made a ton of cash and bought Porshe.
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
This is the JD Power 2012 long term, 3 years, relaibility survey for 2009 vehicles, look at where Jaguar is, they are rated 5th to last. I dont find these JD power IQS ratings too useful either, but the long term relaibility survey are much more accurate. I also notice that Porsche and Cadillac are making themself a home up there in the top 5 lately :
If I am reading this correctly, the highest rated car brand will have an average on one problem per vehicle and the worst car brand will have an average of two problems per vehicle. I'm not sure why this is a big deal.
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:43 PM
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This is ridiculous.

They have "RAM" listed on there. That is the only model they have listed.
Does this include Dodge as a whole (I would hope not)?
RAM is the new brand for Dodge Trucks. Currently they have four models.

Ram Line-up
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:43 PM
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While the press regurgitates this info, I think IQS is more useful for the manufacturers themselves. While it was mentioned that people not knowing how to use iDrive or other things may result in lower rankings, but that is exactly the kind of the information that a manufacturer would want. They know they need to improve. JD Power will also provide more detailed information to the manufacturer so that they can focus in on problem areas.

When I filled out one of the surveys, I gave BMW hell on the RFT and navigation issues.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
If I am reading this correctly, the highest rated car brand will have an average on one problem per vehicle and the worst car brand will have an average of two problems per vehicle. I'm not sure why this is a big deal.
Agree. I think the ratings meant more 10-20 years ago when GM was a laughing stock of the automotive industry. But now the difference between the best car and worst is marginal.

I have a 2008 VW GTi that I bought new in 2007. The only issue I had was the front struts made noise and were replaced under warranty around 5k miles. At the time, VW was rated second to last next to Land Rover.

I think a point to keep in mind is that if the average car has 1-2 issues as part of the IQS, nearly 50% won't have any issues at all.

Also, I wonder how many people report everything? For example, the F10 has a rough idle issue. Is it bothersome enough to report since it does not occur a lot? How many buyers will even notice it?

A few years a go the Lexus forum was littered with ES complaints of transmissions slips/programming problems. Somehow that did not translate to bad ratings. Did the average buyer not even notice or care?

Imagine if all BMW buyers had to buy a Lexus. Since we tend to be more picky about performance related issues I suspect the Lexus ratings would suck.
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Last edited by chuck92116; 06-22-2012 at 08:59 AM.
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  #25  
Old 06-22-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
If I am reading this correctly, the highest rated car brand will have an average on one problem per vehicle and the worst car brand will have an average of two problems per vehicle. I'm not sure why this is a big deal.
Even JD power themself mentioned that the gap between the best and the worst have been narrowed in recent years and that the car industry as a whole have made progress in reliabilty. This is one of the main reason, I no longer own a Lexus, if Lexus is the leader, and BMW is about average, that only accounts to an extra 0.5 problem in three years of ownership. Those statitics are something I am willing to put up with for what BMW has to offer over Lexus.
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