Lexus GS350 F-Sport vs BMW 535i

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

While I think BMWs are better, I think you are the kind of person who gives BMW owners a reputation for being blind brand snobs with no understanding of what they are buying. Your statement is grossly ignorant. It's equivalent to saying the earth is flat.

In fact as a 6 time BMW owner, two times BMW M owner and one time Lexus owner, I would say BMWs are grossly overpriced and not Lexus cars. the depreciation statistics bear out the truth of what I am saying.

I agree as a 3rd time BMW owner I feel we shouldn't describe people demographically in terms of what they buy and to make assumption of how others are just because they own a BMW or a Lexus. Its a poor method. As a resident physician I try to be very open and very tolerance of others and accept them.

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

While I think BMWs are better, I think attitudes like that conveyed by your post give BMW owners a reputation for being blind brand snobs with no understanding of what they are buying. Your statement is grossly ignorant. It's equivalent to saying the earth is flat.

In fact as a 6 time BMW owner, two times BMW M owner and one time Lexus owner, I would say BMWs are grossly overpriced and not Lexus cars. the depreciation statistics bear out the truth of what I am saying.

You can talk until you're blue in the face, there's no getting around the fact that a Lexus is a Toyota product. I know that causes you much consternation, but well, facts are facts.

Who is ignorant if they keep buying cars they think are "grossly overpriced"? If the single Lexus you owned impressed you that much, I still can't understand why your next car shouldn't be a Lexus, then you can spread your so-called "truths" on the Lexus forums.

Originally Posted by markl53

You can talk until you're blue in the face, there's no getting around the fact that a Lexus is a Toyota product. I know that causes you much consternation, but well, facts are facts.

Who is ignorant if they keep buying cars they think are "grossly overpriced"? If the single Lexus you owned impressed you that much, I still can't understand why your next car shouldn't be a Lexus, then you can spread your so-called "truths" on the Lexus forums.

Well its like saying Audis are VW products. Though VW are better driving cars then Toyotas. I am ok with Lexus being a part of Toyota but their development team and engineers are on totally separate groups with different objectives. I at least with this in mind have more choices in my life to choose from.

Stealth.Pilot is a important part of this community and he brings great things to say. Its no point dissing, this forum is for people to discuss everything ranging from liking BMW to not liking it.

The great thing is that Toyota has shown ambition and ability to produce a luxury drivers car. That is the difficult part. To add more grunt is easy. Even designing a desirable exterior should be easy. I suspect they have made the mistake of using the same designers that created the rest of their generic boring looking cars. It's a lot to expect of that team to create something vastly different than what they are used to and you endup with a rather unappealing miss mash like a hobby import tuner looking car. I think they need to hire a completely new designer or a design house that has a proven ability to create desirable designs.

The comparison with the E60 is ridiculous IMO. That design was totally different than the preceding fives. Hardly one line other than the hofmeister kink
was carried over or could be called generic. The car is cohesive in it's edgy muscular design without the generic parts the GS mixes with the over styled parts. It is likely one of the ballsiest and successful redesigns in BMWs history. The E39 is a great car but it had nowhere near the novelty and freshness of the E60's exterior. The one mistake BMW made was offering too small wheels on the car. It is so muscular that it looks terrible with anything smaller than 18s. The F10 and the E39 are without a doubt more beautiful cars but the E60 has way more attitude and personality. Like it or not but it's a cool car.

The only two things bad about Bangle design are the cup holder and the non-driver-oriented cockpit.

E60 Msport exterior does look very agressive and mean.

Solstice, why didn't you switch to E60 M5 instead of M3 from the F10?

I was thinking to get E60 M5 before getting my F10, but I do not want make a fuel stop so often.

Originally Posted by markl53

You can talk until you're blue in the face, there's no getting around the fact that a Lexus is a Toyota product. I know that causes you much consternation, but well, facts are facts.

Who is ignorant if they keep buying cars they think are "grossly overpriced"? If the single Lexus you owned impressed you that much, I still can't understand why your next car shouldn't be a Lexus, then you can spread your so-called "truths" on the Lexus forums.

Have you driven the new GS?

Originally Posted by baloo588

Well its like saying Audis are VW products. Though VW are better driving cars then Toyotas. I am ok with Lexus being a part of Toyota but their development team and engineers are on totally separate groups with different objectives. I at least with this in mind have more choices in my life to choose from.

Stealth.Pilot is a important part of this community and he brings great things to say. Its no point dissing, this forum is for people to discuss everything ranging from liking BMW to not liking it.

++1.Freedom, I love America!!!!

Originally Posted by baloo588

Well its like saying Audis are VW products. Though VW are better driving cars then Toyotas. I am ok with Lexus being a part of Toyota but their development team and engineers are on totally separate groups with different objectives. I at least with this in mind have more choices in my life to choose from.

I'm not comparing Lexus with Toyota. I made a factual comment that Lexus is produced by Toyota. This bothers Stealth Pilot.

Stealth.Pilot is a important part of this community and he brings great things to say. Its no point dissing, this forum is for people to discuss everything ranging from liking BMW to not liking it.

I've been a part of this community for over 7 years, and I've contributed many helpful threads. I've never called anyone "ignorant". Stealth Pilot routinely insults other forum members who don't conform to his thinking. I agree, it's a place to agree, disagree and learn. But it should be done with a modicum of civility. It's childish to lash out at others who don't agree with your thinking. BTW, I'm already on his ignore list.

Originally Posted by solstice

The great thing is that Toyota has shown ambition and ability to produce a luxury drivers car. That is the difficult part. To add more grunt is easy. Even designing a desirable exterior should be easy. I suspect they have made the mistake of using the same designers that created the rest of their generic boring looking cars. It's a lot to expect of that team to create something vastly different than what they are used to and you endup with a rather unappealing miss mash like a hobby import tuner looking car. I think they need to hire a completely new designer or a design house that has a proven ability to create desirable designs.

The comparison with the E60 is ridiculous IMO. That design was totally different than the preceding fives. Hardly one line other than the hofmeister kink
was carried over or could be called generic. The car is cohesive in it's edgy muscular design without the generic parts the GS mixes with the over styled parts. It is likely one of the ballsiest and successful redesigns in BMWs history. The E39 is a great car but it had nowhere near the novelty and freshness of the E60's exterior. The one mistake BMW made was offering too small wheels on the car. It is so muscular that it looks terrible with anything smaller than 18s. The F10 and the E39 are without a doubt more beautiful cars but the E60 has way more attitude and personality. Like it or not but it's a cool car.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Have you driven the new GS??? I keep asking this question.

Originally Posted by jammat

Have you driven the new GS?

No. But the quesion is not germain -- I'm not comparing the F10 to the GS350 in my comments.

Originally Posted by markl53

I'm not comparing Lexus with Toyota. I made a factual comment that Lexus is produced by Toyota. This bothers Stealth Pilot.



I've been a part of this community for over 7 years, and I've contributed many helpful threads. I've never called anyone "ignorant". Stealth Pilot routinely insults other forum members who don't conform to his thinking. I agree, it's a place to agree, disagree and learn. But it should be done with a modicum of civility. It's childish to lash out at others who don't agree with your thinking. BTW, I'm already on his ignore list.

How do you know you are on his ignore list?

Originally Posted by markl53

No. But the quesion is not germain -- I'm not comparing the F10 to the GS350 in my comments.

Sir/Madam, the question is germane, your statement could leave one with the impression that a Lexus is the same as a Toyota since they are made by the same company, that's all we are trying to point out. You are acting like a lawyer, trying to confuse us of lesser intellect.

Originally Posted by jammat

Sir/Madam, the question is germane, your statement could leave one with the impression that a Lexus is the same as a Toyota since they are made by the same company, that's all we are trying to point out. You are acting like a lawyer, trying to confuse us of lesser intellect.

Look Jammat, I was having some fun with S.P after he dissed that person a little earlier, the person mentioned Toyota somehow and S.P went off as usual. His response about "ignorant", etc. I can't find the thread now, and I thought it was earlier in this one, but S.P had a tantrum several months ago and started ignoring several people including me. Read some of his other haughty responses where he states that 528i owners don't give a sh!t about cars, they're only in it for the BMW, etc. It's all over the place. (Oh, and I don't own a 528i, I'm just noting). He acts as though the 528i is a totally different vehicle than the 535i and 550i. Like you can't get all-leather dash, like that's going to really change the driving dynamics. He stated to someone else in another thread, who had mentioned enjoying a loaner 135i, that if he had to start driving 1's or 3's, he'd start taking a cab. These types of denigrating statements don't really have a place in a car enthusiast forum, where people have different spending ability, needs, likes, etc.

Originally Posted by jammat

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Have you driven the new GS??? I keep asking this question.

Sorry I realized that I was not clear in what respect I think the comparison to the E60 is off. It only pertained to the exterior looks not how the cars drive. I hope the drive is comparable, it seems all reviews are positive and I have no reason to doubt them. If Toyota builds a nice looking car that drives like an E60 I'd buy one over a BMW since I would get Toyota reliability as a bonus but the new GS is not up to my personal minimum standard in the looks department. I really hope they get this piece right with the next one, they've managed the hard part already so there should be good hope.

Originally Posted by bodonx

The only two things bad about Bangle design are the cup holder and the non-driver-oriented cockpit.

E60 Msport exterior does look very agressive and mean.

Solstice, why didn't you switch to E60 M5 instead of M3 from the F10?

I was thinking to get E60 M5 before getting my F10, but I do not want make a fuel stop so often.

I love the E60 M5. The coolest sedan ever built imo.
Three things made me buy the M3 instead:

1. Most important. The M5 was out of production. I want a new car. I know it's not financially smart and have little technical meaning but it matters to me. I really like knowing the full history of the car and taking a brand new car into possesion is special to me.

2. My wife did not want an MT and I use my car every day and the SMG is a bit rough.

3. I'm ok with 15 mpg even if gas goes to $6-7 a gallon but with 10 mpg it would feel a bit wasteful when the M3 is almost as cool, drives even better and the space is sufficient ( but not more. ).

I'm glad we are all having a great discussion on the pros and cons of each car. It makes me happy to see that we all enjoy cars and we all are not afraid to discuss what we feel and how passionate we are about a particular model. That's the purpose of this forum. Have a wonderful weekend.

I don't get this "Lexus is a Toyota" and "Audi is a VW". Hell Mercedes makes cheap cars, trucks, taxis, generators and other stuff and for the longest time they were the ultimate in luxury and build quality. Porsche is a fancy and sporty VW too?

Reality is that these manufacturers now have the scale and the money to have fully functioning luxury and sport brands and in my opinion they are going back to when BMW still cared about building the Ultimate Driving Machine and copying the good stuff from those days. I seriously consider the new GS and the A6 as better cars than the 5er. You guys are going to tell me you love how big it feels in your hands (That's what she said)? And you love that throttle delay? And the ridiculous steering wheel that's now so thin and light that it feels like an old school Caddy?

I think we have to respect the other brands. They are putting out some awesome competition for BMW and the guys in Munich better wake up. I'm a loyalist and have owner almost 10 BMWs, but frankly, the steering and crappy throttle have me walking into other dealers for the first time in 10 years. That's sad.

Originally Posted by grilodan

I don't get this "Lexus is a Toyota" and "Audi is a VW". Hell Mercedes makes cheap cars, trucks, taxis, generators and other stuff and for the longest time they were the ultimate in luxury and build quality. Porsche is a fancy and sporty VW too?

Reality is that these manufacturers now have the scale and the money to have fully functioning luxury and sport brands and in my opinion they are going back to when BMW still cared about building the Ultimate Driving Machine and copying the good stuff from those days. I seriously consider the new GS and the A6 as better cars than the 5er. You guys are going to tell me you love how big it feels in your hands (That's what she said)? And you love that throttle delay? And the ridiculous steering wheel that's now so thin and light that it feels like an old school Caddy?

I think we have to respect the other brands. They are putting out some awesome competition for BMW and the guys in Munich better wake up. I'm a loyalist and have owner almost 10 BMWs, but frankly, the steering and crappy throttle have me walking into other dealers for the first time in 10 years. That's sad.

Well said

Originally Posted by grilodan

I don't get this "Lexus is a Toyota" and "Audi is a VW". Hell Mercedes makes cheap cars, trucks, taxis, generators and other stuff and for the longest time they were the ultimate in luxury and build quality. Porsche is a fancy and sporty VW too?

Reality is that these manufacturers now have the scale and the money to have fully functioning luxury and sport brands and in my opinion they are going back to when BMW still cared about building the Ultimate Driving Machine and copying the good stuff from those days. I seriously consider the new GS and the A6 as better cars than the 5er. You guys are going to tell me you love how big it feels in your hands (That's what she said)? And you love that throttle delay? And the ridiculous steering wheel that's now so thin and light that it feels like an old school Caddy?

I think we have to respect the other brands. They are putting out some awesome competition for BMW and the guys in Munich better wake up. I'm a loyalist and have owner almost 10 BMWs, but frankly, the steering and crappy throttle have me walking into other dealers for the first time in 10 years. That's sad.

Well said, although you should have gotten a sport or MSport car. That would have fixed your issues with the wheel.

I regret it every day. I was coming from an E90 335i without sport and it was a great steering wheel.

Originally Posted by grilodan

I don't get this "Lexus is a Toyota" and "Audi is a VW". Hell Mercedes makes cheap cars, trucks, taxis, generators and other stuff and for the longest time they were the ultimate in luxury and build quality. Porsche is a fancy and sporty VW too?

Reality is that these manufacturers now have the scale and the money to have fully functioning luxury and sport brands and in my opinion they are going back to when BMW still cared about building the Ultimate Driving Machine and copying the good stuff from those days. I seriously consider the new GS and the A6 as better cars than the 5er. You guys are going to tell me you love how big it feels in your hands (That's what she said)? And you love that throttle delay? And the ridiculous steering wheel that's now so thin and light that it feels like an old school Caddy?

I think we have to respect the other brands. They are putting out some awesome competition for BMW and the guys in Munich better wake up. I'm a loyalist and have owner almost 10 BMWs, but frankly, the steering and crappy throttle have me walking into other dealers for the first time in 10 years. That's sad.

Nicely stated. I love my car, and it is easily the best car I have ever owned. But that doesn't mean it is infallible.

BTW, calling a Lexus a Toyota may be a statement of fact, but it is being used as cover by markl53 to say something but to actually mean something else. Since we know he dislikes Japanese cars, by saying that it is the equivalent of saying "just kidding" after saying something offensive to someone. It's his prerogative to dislike something, but let's keep things factual.

Originally Posted by alewifebp

BTW, calling a Lexus a Toyota may be a statement of fact, but it is being used as cover by markl53 to say something but to actually mean something else. Since we know he dislikes Japanese cars, by saying that it is the equivalent of saying "just kidding" after saying something offensive to someone. It's his prerogative to dislike something, but let's keep things factual.

Look, I'm sorry, I don't want to be on everyone's sh!tlist. The whole reason I even brought up the Toyota thing again is because our buddy Stealth.Pilot gave someone another hard time earlier in this thread when they said something about not liking the GS. Among other things, that person brought up the Toyota topic, went on to mention some of the recent problems they had, etc. S.P responded as usual that the person's statements were "ignorant", etc. He gets quite haughty when a) someone doesn't agree with his view or b) someone has a "lesser" BMW than he does and therefore must be an extraordinarily "average" person.

That's why I replied that it is an undeniable fact that Lexus is produced by Toyota. I made no attempt to state that Lexus is equivalent to a Toyota (although I may have done that in some much earlier threads!). I was ribbing him, and since I know I'm on his ignore list, I'm thinking maybe he'll see it when someone else quotes me. A point I made on another active thread regarding the GS, I think I've reached a frustration level where forum members 1) "love" other brands' new models after a 15-minute test drive, or simply read a magazine review and claim it's far superior and solves all the F10 issues, 2) continue to scream that BMW doesn't care about them anymore, 3) then continue to pout, buy and drive BMW's. If someone loves another car, by all means, buy that car and be happier.

As far as me not liking Japanese cars, that is not entirely accurate. We have owned 4 Acuras recently, an Infiniti, a Mazda (RX-7). In almost all cases, their reliability surpassed that of the American cars I drove previously. For me, they have become what American cars used to be, more or less that standard automobile of choice. However, I will say that the mechanical quality and reliability of my 3 BMW's is equal to or better than the Japanese cars we've owned. As far as Lexus specifically, I do have a bias against it, not 100% sure why. They are fine cars, but have their share of problems and weaknesses as well. I just have no desire to own one.

Can't we all just get along? Someone had to say it....