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F06 Gran Coupe (2013 - Current)
BMW's entrance into the 4 door coupe segment to go head to head with the Audi A7 and MB CLS

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  #1  
Old 05-20-2012, 05:03 PM
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Gran Coupe pricing is oddly high...

If this is to be a competitor of the MB, CLS, as many articles suggest, as does the design, then why is it so high?

For example, if you price out the MB CLS 63 (519HP) against a 640i Gran Coupe it's a close pricing structure. The M series on the anticipated 650i will not even get you close in HP and yet cost you $10,000 more.

I think it's obvious that BMW put this car out to compete against the CLS, but the price point (CLS 650i), if valid, is materially higher than the AMG 63 series (which is BMW's M series equivalent, for the most part). However, the M-gimmick on the 650i Gran Coupe is just a badging and cosmetic thing, isn't it? Hmm. Usually when you build a car to compete (3 sereies against the C-Class, 5 series for the E-Class, 7 series for the S-Class), you price them somewhat close.

I would be curious if the pricing is accurate at this point for the CLS. If so, it will be the highest price delta for a similar model yet.

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 05-20-2012, 10:46 PM
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Does the 6 Series coupe/convertible compete against the cheaper E class coupe/convertible or the costlier CL/SL? I don't think these cars alway have a direct competitor, just look at the 5 GT. Does it compete againt the R Class, or will it be the upcoming CLS wagon?
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2012, 06:11 PM
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The 6 series Gran Coupe was designed to take a bite out of Mercedes CLS sales numbers, it being a very succesful model in the Mercedes line-up now. It is a competitor of the CLS, and was designed for this very niche.

The 6 is not an E class competitor, but a CLS competitor. The E is tied to the 5 Series. And just about every Mercedes can be tied to a BMW, with very few exceptions. Germans.

If you have something to the contrary, post it up.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/12/11/ph...edes-benz-cls/

http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/...px?mmysid=4155
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2012, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 View Post
The 6 series Gran Coupe was designed to take a bite out of Mercedes CLS sales numbers, it being a very succesful model in the Mercedes line-up now. It is a competitor of the CLS, and was designed for this very niche.

The 6 is not an E class competitor, but a CLS competitor. The E is tied to the 5 Series. And just about every Mercedes can be tied to a BMW, with very few exceptions. Germans.

If you have something to the contrary, post it up.
I read your articles and I see that BMW also considers the Gran Coupe to be a Panamera & Rapide competitor, so the pricing may not be all that out of line since this 4dr/5dr coupe segment is somewhat ill-defined, especially since the 5GT also fits in this category.

Again I will ask, which MB models are direct competitors to the 6 Series coupe and convertible? Your answer may help clarify where you think the Gran Coupe really fits.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:30 PM
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650i, maybe a competitor, maybe.

As far as a mid-sized convertible from mercedes, they decided to let the SL be their stable mate. I don't believe you'll see another convertible from them, in the six series line, per say. Where's BMW's SLR? "few exceptions".

Their main horse are the 3, 5, 6, 7. The six is a relatively newcomer, too.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:04 AM
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The 6 GC is not a direct competitor to the CLS just how the 6 coupe isn't a direct competitor to the CL. The CLS is an overstylized E class and the 6 GC is a streched 6er so that's why it's more expensive than the CLS just how is the CL more expensive than the 6 coupe. Just because they share the 4 door coupe concept doesn't mean they have to compete directly with each other.
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:31 PM
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Are you serious? I disagree, and the CLS has nothing to do with the CL. The CLS is not an overstyled E class--they are built on different frames and are completely different cars.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you really don't know what you're talking about at all. In fact, you're completely clueless on the cars.
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  #8  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 View Post
Are you serious? I disagree, and the CLS has nothing to do with the CL. The CLS is not an overstyled E class--they are built on different frames and are completely different cars.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you really don't know what you're talking about at all. In fact, you're completely clueless on the cars.
Sorry, but WhyGeeGee is spot on correct. The fact you think the sixer convertible is a direct competitor to the SL is laughable. The 6 Convertible is placed equidistant between the E Class convertible and the SL in terms of price, but it is much closer to the E Class coupe in terms specs. Sorry to burst your bubble.

And yes, the CLS is built on the E platform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autozine
The new car follows the formula set by the old car. It is again built on the E-class platform, though this time the latest W212 E-class. It shares the E-class' 2874 mm wheelbase in order to accommodate four adults comfortably. Compare with the sedan, its overall length is increased by 70 mm for styling purpose. Front and rear tracks are widened by 10 mm and 20 mm respectively to improve cornering stability. Overall height is lowered by 55 mm, benefiting both styling and center of gravity. Furthermore, the driver sits 18 mm lower than in the sedan to give a sportier feel. All powertrains come straight from the E-class. Suspensions and steering are also borrowed from the sedan, though they get sportier tuning. In particular, the geometry of its 3-link strut front suspensions owes more to the AMG E63. Anyway, if you are familiar with the old CLS, you won't be surprised by the concept and execution of the new car.
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  #9  
Old 05-27-2012, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 View Post
Are you serious? I disagree, and the CLS has nothing to do with the CL. The CLS is not an overstyled E class--they are built on different frames and are completely different cars.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you really don't know what you're talking about at all. In fact, you're completely clueless on the cars.
You clearly have some reading comprehension issues as I haven't compared the CLS with the CL what I mentioned is that the 6er coupe isn't a direct compitetor to the CL even though both of them are coupes with 4 seats and please are you that blind to not know that the CLS is based on the E-Class?

In the end why are you mad that the GC is more expensive than the CLS? if you want the CLS then go for it.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:00 PM
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I'm not mad, more disappointed. I'm too big for the CLS, and I suspect I may have the same problem with the GC. I can fit, but I feel cramped in the car. As much as I like the car, until I sit in it I can't make a decision as to whether I will buy one. At 6'3'' 230 I need a wide upper seat for my shoulders. Fortunately I'm not a fat-ass so the seat pan can be small without consequence.

However, having just seen the new 7, I am really impressed with the upgrade in the engine and electronics on the car. Yeah the cosmetic upgrades are very minor, I am really impressed with what they've done with the interior. And while the 2013, pricing isn't out yet, I have a feeling it's not far off the GC loaded.

I have seen the numbers for sizing, but until you sit in the cars, it's too hard to guess.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:05 PM
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Dunder, your bubble is full of hot air.

And you are sadly misinformed. The CLS and GC are direct competitors. It's not what platform it's built on, but what market it has been designed to satifsfy. I can assure you the GC is not hunting for MB E class owners.

The only thing laughable is your inability to follow the initial posting, bubble head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Sorry, but WhyGeeGee is spot on correct. The fact you think the sixer convertible is a direct competitor to the SL is laughable. The 6 Convertible is placed equidistant between the E Class convertible and the SL in terms of price, but it is much closer to the E Class coupe in terms specs. Sorry to burst your bubble.

And yes, the CLS is built on the E platform.
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  #12  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:26 PM
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The 6 and the CLS definitely compete. Just as the the 5, 6, and Gran Coupe share a platform, so do the W212 E Class and CLS share a platform - these are cars which cross-compete and where there are direct model parallels.

I've posted before that GC pricing is insane. That a reasonably optioned 640i GC prices within spitting distance of the CLS63 is crazy. As for which cars BMW itself thinks compete with the GC - BMWUSA actually preselects the base 911 and the E Class coupe as the first two comparable vehicles.
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  #13  
Old 06-01-2012, 05:29 PM
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You seem to have problems follow your statements when they are pointed out to you using quotes, so I'll summarze them for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 Post 1
If this is to be a competitor of the MB, CLS...
It looks like you are unsure if they are competitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 Post 3
It is a competitor of the CLS
Okay, now it looks like you made up your mind and quite quickly too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 Post 3
The 6 is not an E class competitor, but a CLS competitor
The CLS is the E GC. Well they left out the "Gran" part to aim for a lower price point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 Post 5
they decided to let the SL be their stable mate


2012 MB SL Class Roadster: 2 seats, hard top, 3935lbs, 429hp V8TT, 0-60 4.5s, $125k well equipped

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 Post 5
I don't believe you'll see another convertible from them, in the six series line, per say
2012 MB E Class Convertible: 4 seats, soft top, 4048lbs, 402hp V8TT, 0-60 5.0s, $83k well equipped
2012 BMW 6 Series Convertible: 4 seats, soft top, 4531lbs, 400hp V8TT, 0-60 4.9s, $102k well equipped

Hmm, kind of like the price difference between the CLS & the GC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 Post 7
The CLS is not an overstyled E class--they are built on different frames and are completely different cars
Clearly proven wrong by Autozine's technical data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 Post 10
I'm too big for the CLS...
Since the CLS is too small for you, if you sit in the GC and find out it is spacious, are they still direct competitors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR2009 Post 11 View Post
It's not what platform it's built on, but what market it has been designed to satifsfy.
First, please reread post 7. The CLS definitely has a much lower class interior/electronics when compared to the GC and its price reflects those short-cuts. The GC was clearly designed and priced to appeal to a higher class market. If BMW named the 6 GC the 8 Series Gran Coupe instead, would you expect the car to be any different than it is today? Would you still think it was overpriced?

If you are willing to cease your personal attacks/insults, we can have an adult conversation, but I will warn you, I like to rely on facts, not feelings/impressions.
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  #14  
Old 06-02-2012, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
The CLS definitely has a much lower class interior/electronics when compared to the GC and its price reflects those short-cuts. The GC was clearly designed and priced to appeal to a higher class market. If BMW named the 6 GC the 8 Series Gran Coupe instead, would you expect the car to be any different than it is today? Would you still think it was overpriced?
I think while it is true that BMW upgraded the 6GC interior to a level above the CLS, the upgrade in the mechanical technology has not been upgraded substantially over the 5 series. Especially when one considers that the N63TU engine is being offered in the 5GT too.

If BMW named this car an 8 series, I would expect some differences:
1) Air Suspension
2) Active Limited Slip Differential (like the CLS) or even a simple mechanical one like Jag XF
3) Dual Clutch Transmission (like the CLS)
4) Bigger brake rotors which require at minimum 19" wheels, with potentially a ceramic option
5) More piston calipers in the rear
6) HUD which provides RPM and Gear info (not mechanical but the 6 is supposed to be a sports car so all 6 models should have this).

Basically what I am getting at is that for a $30k price premium over a 550i, the 650GC has to have some meaningful mechanical upgrades.
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I think while it is true that BMW upgraded the 6GC interior to a level above the CLS, the upgrade in the mechanical technology has not been upgraded substantially over the 5 series. Especially when one considers that the N63TU engine is being offered in the 5GT too.

If BMW named this car an 8 series, I would expect some differences:
1) Air Suspension
2) Active Limited Slip Differential (like the CLS) or even a simple mechanical one like Jag XF
3) Dual Clutch Transmission (like the CLS)
4) Bigger brake rotors which require at minimum 19" wheels, with potentially a ceramic option
5) More piston calipers in the rear
6) HUD which provides RPM and Gear info (not mechanical but the 6 is supposed to be a sports car so all 6 models should have this).

Basically what I am getting at is that for a $30k price premium over a 550i, the 650GC has to have some meaningful mechanical upgrades.
I think the problem here is that the 550i is very well equipped compared to the E550 which pales in comparison towards the 550i which is why when the E550 is compared to the CLS550 you see that the price increase is justified.

If you look at the 650GC and the 550i besides the exterior and the enterior you can equip your 5er with the same options as the 6er so I see your point and I kinda agree but then the new 5 is so damn good that I think BMW didn't know how good it will be.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I think while it is true that BMW upgraded the 6GC interior to a level above the CLS, the upgrade in the mechanical technology has not been upgraded substantially over the 5 series. Especially when one considers that the N63TU engine is being offered in the 5GT too.

If BMW named this car an 8 series, I would expect some differences:
1) Air Suspension
2) Active Limited Slip Differential (like the CLS) or even a simple mechanical one like Jag XF
3) Dual Clutch Transmission (like the CLS)
4) Bigger brake rotors which require at minimum 19" wheels, with potentially a ceramic option
5) More piston calipers in the rear
6) HUD which provides RPM and Gear info (not mechanical but the 6 is supposed to be a sports car so all 6 models should have this).

Basically what I am getting at is that for a $30k price premium over a 550i, the 650GC has to have some meaningful mechanical upgrades.
Aside from the air suspension, it looks like you wanted the Gran Coupe to be an M car. I wouldn't be eager to see a DCT in the Gran Coupe, but in the M6 GC would be a different story.

I did some equivalent builds at bmwusa.com for the 535i, 640i Coupe, and the 640i Gran Coupe and they had the following prices: $69k, $86k, and $89k. The $3k premium over the 6 Series Coupe doesn't look to be all that out of line with the other 6 Series models. The $20k premium over the 5 Series makes the 5 Series a relative bargain, but the 5 isn't a 6.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:59 PM
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Aside from the air suspension, it looks like you wanted the Gran Coupe to be an M car. I wouldn't be eager to see a DCT in the Gran Coupe, but in the M6 GC would be a different story.

I did some equivalent builds at bmwusa.com for the 535i, 640i Coupe, and the 640i Gran Coupe and they had the following prices: $69k, $86k, and $89k. The $3k premium over the 6 Series Coupe doesn't look to be all that out of line with the other 6 Series models. The $20k premium over the 5 Series makes the 5 Series a relative bargain, but the 5 isn't a 6.
I don't think that is right. For instance, the CLS550 has a limited slip diff and gets power down better than a 6 series. The Audi S7 has a DCT. I don't think these are necessarily BMW M or AMG or RS technologies.

What i am getting at is that if you are pricing against a Panamera S then you have to have better technology than a 5 series. The Panamera S has a DCT without stealing sales from a Panamera Turbo S.

I think BMW should think that way too. The 650GC should be closer to an M5/6 than a 550i or 550GT.
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Old 06-04-2012, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I don't think that is right. For instance, the CLS550 has a limited slip diff and gets power down better than a 6 series. The Audi S7 has a DCT. I don't think these are necessarily BMW M or AMG or RS technologies.

What i am getting at is that if you are pricing against a Panamera S then you have to have better technology than a 5 series. The Panamera S has a DCT without stealing sales from a Panamera Turbo S.

I think BMW should think that way too. The 650GC should be closer to an M5/6 than a 550i or 550GT.
I think the GC is expensive because it's a hybrid of the both the 5 series and the 7 Series. Where you get the handling of the 5er and the luxury of the 7er. Even though you think that improving the interior of a car isn't much it actually what makes these cars so expensive. The reason the Panamera is expensive isn't because of all the technologies it has it's because of the high quality interior the car can offer where you pay thousands just for better leather and wood trim.
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Old 06-04-2012, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I don't think that is right. For instance, the CLS550 has a limited slip diff and gets power down better than a 6 series. The Audi S7 has a DCT. I don't think these are necessarily BMW M or AMG or RS technologies.

What i am getting at is that if you are pricing against a Panamera S then you have to have better technology than a 5 series. The Panamera S has a DCT without stealing sales from a Panamera Turbo S.

I think BMW should think that way too. The 650GC should be closer to an M5/6 than a 550i or 550GT.
I agree that the 6 Series should have been more sporting in general, but the 6 GC is basically a 4 door 6 Series, nothing more, nothing less, so it has the 6 Series capabilities, options, and pricing. I think I would like the CLS more if it were more S-Class vice E-Class. I think we are looking for different things from this emerging 4 door coupe market.

The M6 GC should be interesting and just like with the 5's and 6's, BMW is leaving a significant performance margin for the M6 GC.
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Basically what I am getting at is that for a $30k price premium over a 550i, the 650GC has to have some meaningful mechanical upgrades.
Why wouldn't you compare it with a 650i coupe? Isn't it more a 4 door 650i than coupe 550i? If it was $20K less than the 650i coupe, who would buy that?
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:52 PM
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Why wouldn't you compare it with a 650i coupe? Isn't it more a 4 door 650i than coupe 550i? If it was $20K less than the 650i coupe, who would buy that?
I think the coupe also needs to have better engineering to justify its price premium. Compared with a 911 or a Mercedes SL, the engineering content is a bit too sedan like for a sports car.

You guys are misreading my point. My point is that the car should have better more sports car like components to justify this price premium over the 5 series.

Further without these components, I am arguing it is nothing more than a coupe 550i. I am also saying that as a performance car (not as a living room,but as a driving machine) the M5 is a much better driving machine than the 650. The 650 is of course a better lounge and sculpture if that's what you want to buy.
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
You guys are misreading my point. My point is that the car should have better more sports car like components to justify this price premium over the 5 series.
OK, I understand your point. But I don't think that this is what BMW is wanting to do. I think they are expecting "style" to sell.

In this way, it's really a 4 door 650i. The 650i, as far as I know, has no significant performance, technical, mechanical and electronic differences from the 550i. And perhaps the regular 6 series buyer in some ways likes that higher price point - the last thing they want to see is as many 6 series cars as there are 5 series.

Now whether it's enough to sell just on style or not, will be answered by sales numbers. Why not let them see how they go? More power to them if they sell a boatload (or two). Do you think they'll lose many sales if you're correct?
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Last edited by chrischeung; 06-05-2012 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 06-29-2012, 02:12 AM
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Ace535i Ace535i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I don't think that is right. For instance, the CLS550 has a limited slip diff and gets power down better than a 6 series. The Audi S7 has a DCT. I don't think these are necessarily BMW M or AMG or RS technologies.

What i am getting at is that if you are pricing against a Panamera S then you have to have better technology than a 5 series. The Panamera S has a DCT without stealing sales from a Panamera Turbo S.

I think BMW should think that way too. The 650GC should be closer to an M5/6 than a 550i or 550GT.
Would you kindly provide the reference that confirms the CLS550 has a limited slip differential as an option.
I believe only the AMG CLS63 has this feature.

Last edited by Ace535i; 06-29-2012 at 02:16 AM.
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