Wait 4 320d vs 328i worthwhile?

Wait 4 320d vs 328i worthwhile?

What would be the PROS and CONS of this besides the time frame ?

Appreciate the input and discussion in advance

if I was getting (and buying, not leasing) a 328i auto i would wait for the 320d, especially if both BMW and the government gives some breaks on them.. The 320d has gotten some great reviews, performace wise I think you may be giving a second or so to 60 but then again if you 328i buyers cared much about this you would be going for the 335i.

Well from all the reviews to a BMW novice like myself, it seems like the 328i might actually be a better driver in "MOST" situations, or very close to the 335i.

Having said that the pricing comparison between the 328i, 335i, and the 320d might sway people one way or another, specially first time buyers.

If like Windsor pointed out there r some rebates, and the pricing is comparable to the 328i, and if it leaves performance as the deciding criteria, than a 320d might be a better choice, plus the mileage, is there as an added bonus.

Am i making any sense ?

I am going to wait for the arrival of 320d (and other 20d's). Have read great things about that particular engine.

But overall, you also have to consider your general driving habitat - the 2.0 Turbo in the 328 itself has a lot of torque, and drives more like a diesel than the naturally aspirated (as in, more of the power is accessible lower down the rev range, so the rewards of revving the engine are limited). Unless you do a lot of highway driving - or cross country road trips, the benefits of the 320d may be limited.

Although it would be perfectly reasonable to assume there will be a 320d in the US, just be aware that BMW hasn't said this will happen. All we know is that there will be two diesel engines coming but we don't know in which cars they will be paired.

Originally Posted by BMW WISH

Wait 4 320d vs 328i worthwhile?

What would be the PROS and CONS of this besides the time frame ?

Appreciate the input and discussion in advance

Originally Posted by Robert A

Although it would be perfectly reasonable to assume there will be a 320d in the US, just be aware that BMW hasn't said this will happen. All we know is that there will be two diesel engines coming but we don't know in which cars they will be paired.

Knowing BMW's history on screwing the US market, they'll probably put the 20d in the X5, and the 30d in the 3 Series and charge $8K more than a 335!

I have an F30 320d (6 speed manual transmission), which has been available here in the UK from launch. I've now racked up 7000 miles, and here are my thoughts on the engine:

The engine is not short of performance at all, and really gets going between 2000 and 4000 RPM. Mine is the EfficientDynamics model which is basically a company car tax special - 109g/km CO2 output (saving me about GBP70 a month in company car tax over the standard 320d), and a 20 horsepower haircut at the top end (163PS instead of 181). The torque figure is identical to the full fat 320d, with the only difference being the standard engine pulls a little harder for a little longer up top. Even with 163PS it's good for 0-62 mph in 8.0 seconds, and 140 mph. Not fast, but like most diesels, feels a lot quicker than the 0-60 time suggests. Cruises at 90 mph on the motorway with no effort at all, and will pull past 100 mph both convincingly, and with no drama.

It's not a quiet diesel engine by modern standards. It's quite clattery on idle, and the deep growl at higher revs could only come from an oil burner. In between these extremes, it's refined enough, and very smooth. The manual shift quality is good too. Like many modern common rail engines, it suffers from a definite "boost threshold" below which the engine simply will not pull at all - about 1400 RPM in this case. It also makes the car quite easy to stall until you get used to it.

I'm averaging about 55 mpg (UK gallons) in real world driving. Some way off the claimed Euro official 69 mpg, but then no car ever meets these figures. I can get well over 60 mpg on a gentle cruise.

Servicing is interesting. According to the computer forecast, it won't need its first oil change until somewhere between 19,000 and 20,000 miles.

Originally Posted by BMW WISH

Wait 4 320d vs 328i worthwhile?

What would be the PROS and CONS of this besides the time frame ?

Appreciate the input and discussion in advance

No manual transmission for the diesels, if that's a consideration.

To me, the benefit of the diesel would primarily be seen if you do a lot of highway driving or road trips. The diesel does not appear to offer substantially better economy in city driving.

Also, remember that in the US diesel is as expensive (or more expensive) than the premium fuel that the 2.0T engine takes, so not a huge advantage. It's also going to be a little bit slower. I believe that in the UK tests 0-60 was in the 6.5 to 7.0 second range... which is noticeably slower than the 2.0T.

The 320d 0-62 time is 7.5 seconds for the standard model, and 8 seconds for the EfficientDynamics. Add a tenth for the auto versions.

0-60 is a very poor measure of performance in a diesel though, and tells you very little about how they feel and perform in the real world.

Originally Posted by Limpet

The 320d 0-62 time is 7.5 seconds for the standard model, and 8 seconds for the EfficientDynamics. Add a tenth for the auto versions.

0-60 is a very poor measure of performance in a diesel though, and tells you very little about how they feel and perform in the real world.

I have never owned a diesel so I'm certainly not in a position to argue that point. I will however say that acceleration capability is quite important to me as a driver, not so much 0-60 times, but particularly things like 40mph to 80mph time for things like quick overtake of a slower vehicle on a 2 lane road.

I'm willing to bet that in nearly all acceleration venues the 328i walks away from the 320d handily.

Don't get me wrong, I think diesels are cool, primarily because they can generate monster amounts of torque at very low RPM and also because they get great economy. There is a reason though that they have been very slow to become popular in the US.

All I know is my buddy in England has had a company A4 for the last couple years and everytime he fills up the tank and the computer shows miles remaining it would show 750ish. Thats almost double the A4 in non-diesel form and the gas tanks are pretty close to the same size the American version is. I have never found the midrange acceleration to be a problem when we are driving up to Manchester. My only complaint with diesels in the US is finding a gas station with it. It seems the more central you are the fewer they are. The outskirts of cities and near highways you can find a pump, but otherwise they are still rare.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

To me, the benefit of the diesel would primarily be seen if you do a lot of highway driving or road trips. The diesel does not appear to offer substantially better economy in city driving.
....

328i uses 50% more fuel in the city than the 320d
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...i&model_2=320d

The 320d would be considerably cheaper to operate.

Originally Posted by d geek

328i uses 50% more fuel in the city than the 320d
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...i&model_2=320d

The 320d would be considerably cheaper to operate.

Do drivers realistically get the quoted fuel economy? I have seen a lot of criticism of the european cycle MPG which apparently is rarely achieved in real world driving.

I'm sure that the 320d returns better fuel economy than the 328i. 50% better? That I doubt. Before revising numbers, BMW was claiming that the 328i returned 36mpg on the US highway MPG course. For the diesel to return 50% better economy it would have to return 54 mpg on the highway, I am extremely skeptical of that.

I would imagine that now that the 328i and 320d have been on the market for a while in Europe that there are some good data points on real world economy between the two cars.

Also worth considering is that BMW has a habit of charging considerable markup on the diesel engines in the US, to the point that even if the fuel economy would save an owner $500-$800 a year it might be a tough pill to swallow if the up front cost of the car is $5K more.

Originally Posted by BMW WISH

Wait 4 320d vs 328i worthwhile?

What would be the PROS and CONS of this besides the time frame ?

Appreciate the input and discussion in advance

I would have waited had 1) I known they would announce it was coming before I ordered, and 2) it would be released within the next couple of months. As it seems there are alot of unknowns still out there about timing and other details, I figure in a couple of years everything will be figured out, the LCI will be out, and I'll be ready to get into whatever exciting spec 3-series is available at that time. In the meantime, the 328i is awesome and I haven't had a situation yet where I thought, "jeez, I wish it just had a little more power"...

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Do drivers realistically get the quoted fuel economy? I have seen a lot of criticism of the european cycle MPG which apparently is rarely achieved in real world driving.

I'm sure that the 320d returns better fuel economy than the 328i. 50% better? That I doubt. Before revising numbers, BMW was claiming that the 328i returned 36mpg on the US highway MPG course. For the diesel to return 50% better economy it would have to return 54 mpg on the highway, I am extremely skeptical of that....

You were referring to city driving. Per the ECE city test data, the 320d consumes 5.4lL/100km while the 328i uses 8.1L over the same distance. I agree the ECE numbers are very optimistic but its a standardized test, so you're seeing the basic difference between the drivetrains at any given setting.

The 328i is rated at 23mpg city on the EPA test cycle. 50% better would be aroudn 34mpg. I think this is doable with the 320d.

On the highway the 328i uses 33% more fuel in the ECE test than the 320d. The 328i with 8spd is rated at 33mpg hwy on the EPA cycle. I certainly think the 320d is capable of 44mpg hwy.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

...Also worth considering is that BMW has a habit of charging considerable markup on the diesel engines in the US, to the point that even if the fuel economy would save an owner $500-$800 a year it might be a tough pill to swallow if the up front cost of the car is $5K more.

You pay extra for diesel engine in most places. It costs more to manufacture.

In the UK, the 320d with blueperformance (urea SCR system) costs the same as the 328i. In Germany the 320d is a bit less than the 328i.

It will be interesting to see how they price the 320d over here and whether an EcoCredit is available.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Do drivers realistically get the quoted fuel economy? I have seen a lot of criticism of the european cycle MPG which apparently is rarely achieved in real world driving.

I'm sure that the 320d returns better fuel economy than the 328i. 50% better? That I doubt. Before revising numbers, BMW was claiming that the 328i returned 36mpg on the US highway MPG course. For the diesel to return 50% better economy it would have to return 54 mpg on the highway, I am extremely skeptical of that.

The EU figures quoted by all manufacturers here in Europe are very unrealistic, but as was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, they do serve as a useful comparison between different engines.

My 320d ED is supposed to do 68.9 mpg on the combined cycle, according to the EU figures. In reality, it does between 53 and 60 depending on road conditions and driving style. Certainly 60 is easily achievable on a steady cruise at 65-70 mph, but throw in traffic and city driving, and this drops to low 50's. For what it's worth, I have never had less than 50 mpg out of it over a full tank.

The trap to avoid of course in all this is that the UK gallon is 4.5 litres, and the US gallon is 3.78, so I would say you could reasonably expect a genuine 50 mpg (US) from the 320d on the highway if you weren't too heavy on the right foot. The 328i if you are lucky, might manage 35 in the same circumstances.

I know one of the issues in the US is the availability of diesel. Here in the UK it is sold in every filling station in the country, and is no more difficult find than gas. But if I had to hunt it down every time I needed it, I would probably feel differently.

I believe the reluctance in the US to take up diesel is down to this, and the emissions focus on particulates and smog, instead of CO2 as per Europe. In the UK, everything from the annual road tax to company car tax and private fuel benefit is based on the CO2 figure. Diesel CO2 figures cannot be touched by an equivalent output gas engine, hence why half of all cars sold in the UK now are diesel, and that "gas guzzling" petrol cars have next to no resale value on the used market.

Oh, and the small matter that we pay the equivalent of almost $8 a gallon for fuel!

Originally Posted by Limpet

I have an F30 320d (6 speed manual transmission), which has been available here in the UK from launch. I've now racked up 7000 miles, and here are my thoughts on the engine: ...

Limpet, your first post higher up was one of the best orientations to the diesel variant of the F30 I've read. Thank you.

This BTW, came as a complete shock to me:

Originally Posted by Limpet

...Like many modern common rail engines, it suffers from a definite "boost threshold" below which the engine simply will not pull at all - about 1400 RPM in this case. It also makes the car quite easy to stall until you get used to it....

What comes to mind is in comparison to my 1.6L 4-banger in my JCW ... While I'm very used to the "makes the car quite easy to stall" if I don't press the 'Sport' button in the way the engine/ECU operates by default, when underway (sans Sport button) I commonly climb up 5'ish or more degree grade hills near my house @ 30mph in 6th gear, which has the engine turning just a bit over idle and 1000 rpm. That my little 1.6L petrol burner would offer me more torque just above idle than the diesel is what I find shocking.

Limpet, great information.

Honestly to me though performance, including acceleration is a key reason to own a BMW over other brands. My Audi right now is pretty quick but feels slow compared to the new 3 with the N20 motor. I don't think I could spend a boatload on a new car and have it return worse acceleration than the "old car" that it is replacing.

It's the in gear acceleration that is the diesel's best feature. As in you're doing 50 and want to be doing 70. Put your foot down and it just goes thanks to the massive torque at low to medium revs.

The auto transmission is an 8 speeder and it's very good according to my colleagues who have them.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Bimmer App

Originally Posted by d geek

in the uk, the 320d with blueperformance (urea scr system) costs the same as the 328i. In germany the 320d is a bit less than the 328i.

It will be interesting to see how they price the 320d over here and whether an ecocredit is available.

+1

- j

Thanks for all the great information

To be honest buying a 335 for me is debatable to just get a more basic 5 series

if you get 320D just get a 5

I have a diesel (truck), and I love it, but I also had the...opportunity...to drive a 1981 Buick LeSabre itch the 350 diesel....it is that engine alone that killed diesels in the US outside of trucks. The engine was absolutely HORRID, the transmission was unable to handle the torque, and it was slow, smokey, and smelly. In the Midwest, the diesel would gel up quickly during our winters, and 0-60 times were listed as eventually...not in seconds. That said, after replacing the trans with a beefier one, it did last over 200k miles..and the only reason it didn't last longer was because the body rusted out.

As the owner of a turbo diesel truck that weighs in at four tons..empty, it moves the truck with authority. I get decent mileage...17 or so combined, and I can tow anything I throw behind it? Fuel is not a big issue, just look for where the trucks fill up and go there (better fuel quality and less likely to have water in it)

I will consider a diesel if one is available whe I buy my next car. If they had the 550d..or even a 535d available this year,I would have considered it for this car.

Good luck with your decision making.

Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo

My only complaint with diesels in the US is finding a gas station with it. It seems the more central you are the fewer they are. The outskirts of cities and near highways you can find a pump, but otherwise they are still rare.

Rare? Hmmm. I would say more like "not on every corner."

I have put 120K miles on my Jetta TDI in the SF Bay Area and found that you can always find a station with diesel. If you are traveling in an unfamiliar area it may take a few failed attempts but I've never had a real problem.

We just added a '13 Passat TDI to our stable and I am very interested in the 320d. It's so nice to go 500-600 miles on a tank of fuel...