Uh-Oh...First 3 Series versus ATS Comparison Test

Originally Posted by dtc100

That's right. BJ disagrees with pretty much all the BMW owner's diverse opinions here, except his own. That does not support his claim that he represents 90% of the BMW owner's, because if he were correct, we would have certainly had read one or two other opinions that he could relate to. Yet he is so alone

No BMW owner in this forum will ever own a Cadillac. The agenda is quite humorous though. Part of GM's strategy to "get younger" and "be more sporty" seems to include guerrilla marketing campaigns in discussion forums apparently.

BJ

Originally Posted by dtc100

That's right. BJ disagrees with pretty much all the BMW owner's diverse opinions here, except his own. That does not support his claim that he represents 90% of the BMW owner's, because if he were correct, we would have certainly had read one or two other opinions that he could relate to. Yet he is so alone.

And as he has continually demonstrated he changes his tune more often than an iPod in shuffle mode, so credibility is not one of his main attibutes. So accept his posts as what they are, entertainment from a rich guy wannabe who likes to ridicule race car driver wannabes. It's all rather harmless and a lot of people here, including the ones who run the site, seem to enjoy his antics.

Originally Posted by m8o

So I'll ask anyone considering a Cadillac ... "How long do you think it will be until parts start falling off of it?"

Not saying JD Power is right about quality but there's a big gap between Caddy and BMW and BMW's not winning in this statistical heat:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/20/j...inment-woes-p/

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

August 2007 and had to give it back in November 2009 for an E90 because it was too small for my growing kids and their football equipment. Was a great car, don't regret it at all, but it just didn't work for me.

BJ

BJ, I think you got confused. You mean their golf clubs, right? Bubba's boy plays football.

I don't usually peruse these threads, but I would like to comment by saying that there is no comparing a Cadillac to a BMW. I know people have bought CTS-V, and the new ATS is being hyped by many, but there is no way that I personally would ever place a Caddy in the same league with a Bimmer...



Just last week I had yet another CTS-V malcontent wanting to trade (read: un-burry himself) and get back into a BMW, complaining about all of the annoying little squeaks and rattles.

Granted, GM has made significant strides in the last decade, but (to me) there is simply no comparison. This is most obvious to those of us in the car business. Two more words: Resale Value.

Originally Posted by Jon Shafer

I don't usually peruse these threads, but I would like to comment by saying that there is no comparing a Cadillac to a BMW. I know people have bought CTS-V, and the new ATS is being hyped by many, but there is no way that I personally would ever place a Caddy in the same league with a Bimmer...



Just last week I had yet another CTS-V malcontent wanting to trade (read: un-burry himself) and get back into a BMW, complaining about all of the annoying little squeaks and rattles.

Granted, GM has made significant strides in the last decade, but (to me) there is simply no comparison. This is most obvious to those of us in the car business. Two more words: Resale Value.

Regarding resale value, it seems true GM does not give high residuals to the CTS leases, but their incentives and low lease rates make the CTS leases a lot less than even the 3 series.

If the ATS is as good as the initial reviews, I will consider leasing one, but only if they offer very competitive lease programs. You are right I don't want to deal with long term ownership of an ATS yet.

I am still hoping BMW steps up and address some of the complaints of the F30 so I can look forward to the improved F30. I don't think it is too much to tune the EPS to have a tighter feel in sport mode. They can leave the soft steering in the ECO mode to keep BJ happy.

And give the 328i a more lively exhaust, make the sport mode more aggressive like in the E90, best of both worlds.

Originally Posted by Jon Shafer

I don't usually peruse these threads, but I would like to comment by saying that there is no comparing a Cadillac to a BMW. I know people have bought CTS-V, and the new ATS is being hyped by many, but there is no way that I personally would ever place a Caddy in the same league with a Bimmer...



Just last week I had yet another CTS-V malcontent wanting to trade (read: un-burry himself) and get back into a BMW, complaining about all of the annoying little squeaks and rattles.

Granted, GM has made significant strides in the last decade, but (to me) there is simply no comparison. This is most obvious to those of us in the car business. Two more words: Resale Value.

I drove a CTS-V coupe with the magnetic shocks and was very pressed. BMW should license that technology,

I'm not rushing out to buy a Cadillac but if I was on the market for a small sport sedan I would definitely consider the ATS and test drive it against the F30.

CA

Cadillac has one advantage no one has mentioned. It's American, which appeals to some patriotic types.

Cadillac's aren't just popular with old people, they're also popular with professional athletes, gang bangers, and Japanese mafia. It's a pretty diverse customer base actually.

Originally Posted by brkf

Karl Brauer founded it a couple years ago. He was the editor at Edmunds' Insideline for many years and editor at a bunch of car mags before that. He had a vision for a different kind of online car resource with TotalScore. It's kind of a car review aggregator.

As for his own "car-guy" credentials, the dude's owned a serious array of awesome cars/motorcycles, including currently having a Ford GT in his garage.

Thanks. That's all I was asking.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Let's face it there are always going to be some here who would rather have a diaper pail with a BMW roundel on it than a Ming vase with a Cadillac crest.

Maybe I'm just exhausted, but this still has me laughing 5 mins after I first read it.

Originally Posted by brkf

Not saying JD Power is right about quality but there's a big gap between Caddy and BMW and BMW's not winning in this statistical heat:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/20/j...inment-woes-p/

I am wondering if the high performance fuel pump issues are still skewing the numbers? Anyway competition is good so bring it on.

Originally Posted by dtc100

So if you are a betting man, what is it, ATS likely catching up to BMW, or BMW likely pulling away?

Depends on the model. The 335i right now can be made to pump another 30 HP and 50 lbs or torque without sweat. The engine is only boosted to 8.9 psi so no issues that I can see and we have all seen after market tuners reliably getting huge amount of power bumps. Hell IMO if they throw in free BMW road assist and go with high performance non RFT's the car would incredible. For what other reviewers said about the Cadillac 3.6 engine is not as refined as the the N55 so unless they go turbo I just don't know what can be done with that engine.

For the 4 banger I think BMW has very much max out the psi the engine can handle reliably for a mass produced car. So improvement I think will come with what is offered standard. I see BMW in the near future throwing in a few of the over priced options for no extra cost.

I am telling you guys the car to watch in the next year or so is the G37S next model. We know what Nissan is capable of doing with cars like the GTR. If the next Infiniti G loses some weight, refines the 3.6L engine in the upper rev band (and increases the MPG by a couple of miles) and a few other things while keeping the price down, then people would be saying 328i what?

Windsor, again, I agree with you a 100%.
Imagine a new G with GTR guts, minus some bells and whistles and expensive body.
335 would be in trouble, let alone 328

Originally Posted by panerai7

Windsor, again, I agree with you a 100%.
Imagine a new G with GTR guts, minus some bells and whistles and expensive body.
335 would be in trouble, let alone 328

Totally agree penarai. it really comes down to the engineers and the bean counters. The problem with GM for the longest time the bean counters were winning that argument, maybe just maybe that is changing. However there is no question about it Infiniti/Nissan. They are on a mission to go back to the producing some very solid driver's cars and they got the technology to make some noise in this market segment.

Originally Posted by windsor027

I am telling you guys the car to watch in the next year or so is the G37S next model. We know what Nissan is capable of doing with cars like the GTR. If the next Infiniti G loses some weight, refines the 3.6L engine in the upper rev band (and increases the MPG by a couple of miles) and a few other things while keeping the price down, then people would be saying 328i what?

When do Nissans ever lose weight? They get fatter and more complex with each generation. The next G will be no different. I also don't think Infiniti has much of a name - people buy them cause they're good value for the money, rather than for the prestige or outright performance.

Aren't they killing off the GTR too? Maybe it just got too fat, they can't make it bigger without pulling small satellites out of orbit.

Originally Posted by Pele96

They should have test the 335i with the 8 speed auto. I am sure it would have a quicker 0-60 time ( 4.7)!

They are just taking the 0-60 time given by the manufacture. Many other reviews testing manual 335's have gotten less than 5.4 seconds.

Originally Posted by panerai7

Windsor, again, I agree with you a 100%.
Imagine a new G with GTR guts, minus some bells and whistles and expensive body.
335 would be in trouble, let alone 328

No Infiniti can cause BMW any trouble. If 10% of the enthusiasts jumped ship, you're talking like 50 cars a year. BMW can do no wrong with the 3 Series, and the only way the 328i could ever see trouble is if the roundel machine breaks at the factory.

It's good to see you back, but this is the new 3 Series forum and there isn't any need for performance conversation here. The Luxury line will outsell the Sport line 10:1, the Modern line will outsell the Sport line 2:1.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No Infiniti can cause BMW any trouble. If 10% of the enthusiasts jumped ship, you're talking like 50 cars a year. BMW can do no wrong with the 3 Series, and the only way the 328i could ever see trouble is if the roundel machine breaks at the factory.

It's good to see you back, but this is the new 3 Series forum and there isn't any need for performance conversation here. The Luxury line will outsell the Sport line 10:1, the Modern line will outsell the Sport line 2:1.

BJ

Judging from the people that are posting pictures of their new F30s BJ in here you and the rest of the luxury line cheerleaders are in a very small minority. Just go check out the Alpine White picture thread, almost all cars in there are Sport Line models. So I don't know what the numbers will be out there but in here you can bet the Sport Line is the most popular choice.

For the other folks I just read the review this guy just made about the 335i, ATS and G37S. I found it very interesting that he praises the hell out of the automatic transmission on the ATS when the other two are manual. You would think if you are doing a comparison test you need to have as many features the same as possible. I don't care who this guy is he get zero respect from me because he made the worse mistake for a car comparison you could make. Engine/transmission combo you should all agree is paramount when testing cars so since ATS comes with auto only then the 335i and the G37s should have also had their auto transmission equivalent. We get it dude you are old and don't like to shift, so do us a favor next time, test all 3 cars with the same type transmission and you will probably find the 8-speed BMW auto as good if not better than the ATS.

Its like that other comparison with the 335i and the S4, the S4 having the extra cost (to the tune of over 3k) differential while they didn't even bother to test the 335i with the adaptive suspension and summer tires which now are standard on the Sport Line 335i. And please don't come back and say that is what the 2012 335i came with. It also had an option for the 19 in summer tires, all told adaptive suspension, variable steering and 19 in tires less than the cost for the S4 differential. So zero credibility to that reviewer from me.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No Infiniti can cause BMW any trouble. If 10% of the enthusiasts jumped ship, you're talking like 50 cars a year. BMW can do no wrong with the 3 Series, and the only way the 328i could ever see trouble is if the roundel machine breaks at the factory.

It's good to see you back, but this is the new 3 Series forum and there isn't any need for performance conversation here. The Luxury line will outsell the Sport line 10:1, the Modern line will outsell the Sport line 2:1.

BJ

BJ, you've been here long enough to know that nothing is changed.
A stripper 3-er have always otsold a sport package car, its been like that since I can remember, e36, e46, e9x and now f3x.
It's also been the same case that those 30-something chicks that bought their 328 with 16" rims and vinyl seats as soon as they started making 50k don't come on this type forums.
So nothing's changed, I don't care if you now call it a luxury line or modern line or iPhone line.

Originally Posted by windsor027

Depends on the model.
I am telling you guys the car to watch in the next year or so is the G37S next model. We know what Nissan is capable of doing with cars like the GTR. If the next Infiniti G loses some weight, refines the 3.6L engine in the upper rev band (and increases the MPG by a couple of miles) and a few other things while keeping the price down, then people would be saying 328i what?

+1 to this. Nissan has an opening here. Everyone else has laid down their cards, and if Nissan gets it right, they could cause quite a stir. Truth be told, I'm just not "feelin'" the F30. The 3 is getting too big for me. And BMW's (for me) have always been about that silky I6 motor, and this just doesn't seem to be where BMW is headed in the future. At least not with cars that are priced at a level I can justify. I've been pondering a change to something like the next gen GTI, which is supposed to gain considerable HP while also losing weight. Love my E92, and don't see any reason to get rid of it for now, but it's hard to see a new BMW in my future.

Originally Posted by windsor027

Judging from the people that are posting pictures of their new F30s BJ in here you and the rest of the luxury line cheerleaders are in a very small minority. Just go check out the Alpine White picture thread, almost all cars in there are Sport Line models. So I don't know what the numbers will be out there but in here you can bet the Sport Line is the most popular choice.

For the other folks I just read the review this guy just made about the 335i, ATS and G37S. I found it very interesting that he praises the hell out of the automatic transmission on the ATS when the other two are manual. You would think if you are doing a comparison test you need to have as many features the same as possible. I don't care who this guy is he get zero respect from me because he made the worse mistake for a car comparison you could make. Engine/transmission combo you should all agree is paramount when testing cars so since ATS comes with auto only then the 335i and the G37s should have also had their auto transmission equivalent. We get it dude you are old and don't like to shift, so do us a favor next time, test all 3 cars with the same type transmission and you will probably find the 8-speed BMW auto as good if not better than the ATS.

Its like that other comparison with the 335i and the S4, the S4 having the extra cost (to the tune of over 3k) differential while they didn't even bother to test the 335i with the adaptive suspension and summer tires which now are standard on the Sport Line 335i. And please don't come back and say that is what the 2012 335i came with. It also had an option for the 19 in summer tires, all told adaptive suspension, variable steering and 19 in tires less than the cost for the S4 differential. So zero credibility to that reviewer from me.

As far as 8spd vs 6spd, everything being equal, I'd rather have a 6spd.

I agree they need to compare apple to apple. But a sport line won't be able to raise the 0.87 g to 1.1 g, if the initial ATS tests were accurate. Slalom time should be ATS's strong point. ATS should do well in braking test too with the Brembo.

What to look for are 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

At first I didn't like it, and I still haven't seen one live but I like the looks of the F30 (check out the pics the BJ posted). The styling is evolutionary so it is immediatly recognizable as a BMW 3 and it has a strong family resemblance to the 5 and the 7. I am curious about how the coupes and cabrios will look but from a sales standpoint I think the looks of the F30 will be a plus and appeal to most customers.

Originally Posted by dtc100

As far as 8spd vs 6spd, everything being equal, I'd rather have a 6spd.

I agree they need to compare apple to apple. But a sport line won't be able to raise the 0.87 g to 1.1 g, if the initial ATS tests were accurate. Slalom time should be ATS's strong point. ATS should do well in braking test too with the Brembo.

What to look for are 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

The 8 speed has been getting very good marks in the reviews of the F30.

Originally Posted by UnderSteer

The 8 speed has been getting very good marks in the reviews of the F30.

And if the ATS 6spd gets very good marks, I'd prefer the 6spd. Although this is not a deal breaker.

The F30 looking like 5 and 7 is what pissed me off. The 3 should have its very own identity. In this regard, ATS style is a strong point, it is distinctively Cadillac and ATS, love it or hate it.

All the other brands, most people will have a hard time telling them apart. That's why BJ will not be able to compete with ATS in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

Originally Posted by dtc100

And if the ATS 6spd gets very good marks, I'd prefer the 6spd. Although this is not a deal breaker.

The F30 looking like 5 and 7 is what pissed me off. The 3 should have its very own identity. In this regard, ATS style is a strong point, it is distinctively Cadillac and ATS, love it or hate it.

All the other brands, most people will have a hard time telling them apart. That's why BJ will not be able to compete with ATS in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

lol, ats looks just like the other cadillac cars





those are 3 different cadillac cars