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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #76  
Old 11-10-2009, 03:09 PM
wit3356 wit3356 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHW View Post
There is no 'car' from this perspective. There are multiple independent subsystems with built-in-test and self-monitoring functions.

It's clear you've experienced an event which was disturbing to you; and you're looking for an explanation - but it's not reasonable to argue these points as if an expert without actually educating yourself.
Sorry if I sounded like an expert. I just described the plain common sense.
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  #77  
Old 11-10-2009, 03:14 PM
neapolitan neapolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by xrated335 View Post
But not totally, as this thread is destined to prove.

I would also take the time to look up 'reliability' and apply that definition to your third sentence. It sounds like you failed, and you failed miserably.

To be honest, I am more disappointed in myself for following this drivel than you for propagating it.
That's a bit harsh, xrated... I think there is nuance lost in the translation (I'm guessing wit3356 is not a native speaker.)

My understanding is that the ECU on almost all manufacturers has data that could implicate you for certain things (INT_MAX_SPEED) and has precedent for admission in courts... It won't be long.

http://www.computer.org/portal/web/c.../ISITC.2007.68

I'd MUCH rather have a car black box (forensic data, used POST-crash, very clear use in understanding safety design and factors regarding in loss of life) than, say, auto speed-enforcing cameras...
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  #78  
Old 11-10-2009, 03:19 PM
wit3356 wit3356 is offline
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Originally Posted by xrated335 View Post
But not totally, as this thread is destined to prove.

I would also take the time to look up 'reliability' and apply that definition to your third sentence. It sounds like you failed, and you failed miserably.

To be honest, I am more disappointed in myself for following this drivel than you for propagating it.
I agree. The message was not properly phrased.
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  #79  
Old 11-10-2009, 04:15 PM
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  #80  
Old 11-10-2009, 04:23 PM
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Wit, please do the Audi 5000 research I suggested. Hundreds of cases PROVING there had to be a problem. Victims crying into the camera SWEARING that they did not hit the accelerator. Journalists earnestly writing editorials, and staring out of the television PLEADING with Audi to take the car off the market before more innocents die! So much anecdotal evidence IT HAD TO BE TRUE!

But it wasn't. Not a SINGLE case of runaway acceleration was due to a malfunctioning system. Driver error in every single case. The only way the attorneys and armchair experts could make the car run away was to drop a brick on the accelerator.

This is going to be the same thing all over again. It's like having to prove you're not a witch in Olde Salem.
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  #81  
Old 11-10-2009, 05:58 PM
wit3356 wit3356 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Wit, please do the Audi 5000 research I suggested. Hundreds of cases PROVING there had to be a problem. Victims crying into the camera SWEARING that they did not hit the accelerator. Journalists earnestly writing editorials, and staring out of the television PLEADING with Audi to take the car off the market before more innocents die! So much anecdotal evidence IT HAD TO BE TRUE!

But it wasn't. Not a SINGLE case of runaway acceleration was due to a malfunctioning system. Driver error in every single case. The only way the attorneys and armchair experts could make the car run away was to drop a brick on the accelerator.

This is going to be the same thing all over again. It's like having to prove you're not a witch in Olde Salem.
DSX, I do honor your opinion. I read about the Audi case, and I understood your point clearly.

IMHO, this Toyota case is quite different from the old Audi case. It is typical of the faults all modern cars with computer brains may have. It is difficult to piece together any human errors plus the floor mat to make up the story. Computers cannot tell right or wrong. They just execute the commands. I agree that people may lie for some benefits, but still it is not possible to exclude computer faults from the 2000 complaints. I knew this kind of problems will come out some day. After I experienced one personally, I just became a more concerned driver. I don't blame cars, and I don't claim to be a perfect driver, either. I became far more attentive now while driving and think continuously about what to do assuming something can happen. I drive the current state-of-the-art car as is. My intention was to learn more wisdom from experienced drivers like you for everyone to get prepared. It is like the earthquake. You don't know when it will strike.
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  #82  
Old 11-10-2009, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wit3356 View Post
DSX, I do honor your opinion. I read about the Audi case, and I understood your point clearly.

IMHO, this Toyota case is quite different from the old Audi case. It is typical of the faults all modern cars with computer brains may have. It is difficult to piece together any human errors plus the floor mat to make up the story. Computers cannot tell right or wrong. They just execute the commands. I agree that people may lie for some benefits, but still it is not possible to exclude computer faults from the 2000 complaints. I knew this kind of problems will come out some day. After I experienced one personally, I just became a more concerned driver. I don't blame cars, and I don't claim to be a perfect driver, either. I became far more attentive now while driving and think continuously about what to do assuming something can happen. I drive the current state-of-the-art car as is. My intention was to learn more wisdom from experienced drivers like you for everyone to get prepared. It is like the earthquake. You don't know when it will strike.
OK wit, fair enough. We'll wait and see how it all shakes out.

(BTW, I'll be in LaJolla from the 14th to the 21st, I'll keep an eye peeled for your 335, just in case.)

Last edited by DSXMachina; 11-10-2009 at 06:33 PM.
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  #83  
Old 11-10-2009, 06:39 PM
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DSX - there are just some itches you cannot scratch!
Is that Damon Hill in your avatar? He's holding up well...

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  #84  
Old 11-10-2009, 07:07 PM
wit3356 wit3356 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
OK wit, fair enough. We'll wait and see how it all shakes out.

(BTW, I'll be in LaJolla from the 14th to the 21st, I'll keep an eye peeled for your 335, just in case.)
DSX, My 335i is in the body shop until maybe after Thanskgivings. The estimate is over $11k. The towing guy messed it up with new scratches on the rear-wheel. But they will replace everything scratched under the body and the front bumper. Great insurance coverage, but the bill will be on me eventually. It is my first collision claim over 30 years of driving.

Have a good time in La Jolla. I live up on the hill on the ocean, that is where my car almost rolled over a slope.
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  #85  
Old 11-10-2009, 07:33 PM
wit3356 wit3356 is offline
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DSX, My 335i is in the body shop until maybe after Thanskgivings. The estimate is over $11k. The towing guy messed it up with new scratches on the rear-wheel. But they will replace everything scratched under the body and the front bumper. Great insurance coverage, but the bill will be on me eventually. It is my first collision claim over 30 years of driving.

Have a good time in La Jolla. I live up on the hill on the ocean, that is where my car almost rolled over a slope.

Oh, I forgot to mention. Don't speed in San Diego. There are so many radar checks.
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  #86  
Old 11-10-2009, 07:46 PM
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Oh, I forgot to mention. Don't speed in San Diego. There are so many radar checks.
That'll be hard for me to do, I'm going to be sporting a Hertz Nissan Altima Hybrid. A customer is picking up the bill so I'm not arguing. It's not a bad car, not as smooth in drivetrain management as the Prius but more trunk and interior room. I drove one all
over Virginia and DC three weeks ago and was very impressed.
As for having a good time in La Jolla, I've never had a bad one!
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  #87  
Old 11-10-2009, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
That'll be hard for me to do, I'm going to be sporting a Hertz Nissan Altima Hybrid. A customer is picking up the bill so I'm not arguing. It's not a bad car, not as smooth in drivetrain management as the Prius but more trunk and interior room. I drove one all
over Virginia and DC three weeks ago and was very impressed.
As for having a good time in La Jolla, I've never had a bad one!
Are you taking Bronson, the magic wheel cleaning dog????

Can I respectfully suggest that you debate the rental car clerk over the safety of the electric system in the hybrid? This is just in case the battery system was built by the same summer intern who built the throttle system in BMWs.
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  #88  
Old 11-10-2009, 09:05 PM
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Is that Damon Hill in your avatar? He's holding up well...

It could be. You know, there have been so many British F1 World Champions, it is quite difficult to keep track of all of them...
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  #89  
Old 11-12-2009, 09:55 AM
wit3356 wit3356 is offline
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Did anyone see this strange video of X5? Is it brake/accel mix-up? or unintended accel? I don't know whether this was already discussed in X5 threads.

http://throttleblips.dailyradar.com/...y-car-crashes/
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  #90  
Old 11-12-2009, 01:07 PM
GerWil GerWil is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
I recently attended a school on the "drive by wire" throttle control systems on all cars sold in the US. As you can imagine the main concern on everyone's mind, right after how we can make money on these things, was reliability and liability.
There are so many redundant (dual or triple) systems at both the signal and receiver end that runaway acceleration is theoretically impossible. At least two signals are generated at the pedal, one high voltage, one low voltage. These are carried by separate wires and the voltage decoded at the throttle. If the signal is whacky the system goes limp home. The throttle is also heavily safeguarded. It has a stepper motor which generates a signal every time it moves. A minicomputer compares that signal, coming from two separate sources within the throttle, with the pedal signal. Any mismatches? Limp home.
Even if all these signal matching safeguards fail, the throttle motor itself is set to fail in a closed position. Limp home. No, the motor does not have to close the throttle! If it doesn't, a spring does. Limp home.
I cut my teeth on this kind of scenario back in the runaway Audi days (simply put, drivers were hitting the accelerator and not the brake, but that almost put Audi out of business). I'm not naive, and have some ability to imagine how things can go bad. I cannot think of any possible way the current dbw systems can make a car take off when the throttle isn't pushed.

Edit: I believe that the dbw system has as many feedback loops and redundant systems at the hydraulic controls on an Airbus.
I once owned a vehicle (not BMW) with a faulty cruise control that engaged without the button being pressed. Not saying that happened here, since claim is that foot was on brake, but there can be other causes for an acceleration other than the throttle.
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  #91  
Old 07-29-2012, 02:34 PM
MSVX3 MSVX3 is offline
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Sudden unintended acceleration

Hi all,

On Friday July 27 I was slowly pulling into my driveway and suddenly my 2007 BMW X3 took off. I managed to steer all the way, missed the wall, hit a tree, drove on my neighbour's lawn and barely missed her SUV (minor scratches to the rear bumper). Finally I used the emergency brake, put it in neutral and turned the car off to stop it while the engine was still reving high. I had my foot on the brake hence the tire marks on my driveway. A simple search on internet reveals other similar incidents. I have posted a few pictures.

Best,
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  #92  
Old 07-29-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MSVX3 View Post
Hi all,

On Friday July 27 I was slowly pulling into my driveway and suddenly my 2007 BMW X3 took off. I managed to steer all the way, missed the wall, hit a tree, drove on my neighbour's lawn and barely missed her SUV (minor scratches to the rear bumper). Finally I used the emergency brake, put it in neutral and turned the car off to stop it while the engine was still reving high. I had my foot on the brake hence the tire marks on my driveway. A simple search on internet reveals other similar incidents. I have posted a few pictures.

Best,
Wow, glad you are okay and that you didn't hit the house!

Regardless of whether or not your vehicle exhibited "unintended acceleration" (a term, interestingly enough, that also fits when someone hits the incorrect pedal), the brakes on the X3 are stronger than the engine's output at the wheels something required by U.S. law.

Those tire marks in the driveway appear to be from a sharply turned wheel turning under power, not a skidding wheel (BMW's have ABS, so skids are more frequently sideways).

Did you take you BMW to the dealer? I'd have it towed immediately, so they can download the engine codes.

- Mike
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  #93  
Old 07-29-2012, 02:51 PM
MSVX3 MSVX3 is offline
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Thanks, I am glad there were no injuries. When I contacted the Police and told them what I thought happened, they towed it away to do an inspection. When I stopped the X3 and put it in Neutral and Park, the engine was still reving high so I believe it is unlikely that I had my foot on the gas pedal during the whole thing. I will post updates when I get more information. It is such a pitty, I enjoyed my X3 very much.
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  #94  
Old 07-29-2012, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MSVX3 View Post
Thanks, I am glad there were no injuries. When I contacted the Police and told them what I thought happened, they towed it away to do an inspection. When I stopped the X3 and put it in Neutral and Park, the engine was still reving high so I believe it is unlikely that I had my foot on the gas pedal during the whole thing. I will post updates when I get more information. It is such a pitty, I enjoyed my X3 very much.
I don't question your observations or what happened, but it is good that the police towed it away (on a flatbed, I hope). Please post updates!

Welcome to Bimmerfest!

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  #95  
Old 07-29-2012, 04:53 PM
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How about common sense? You can take a 650hp auto trans car to the start line of a quarter mile run push the brake then push the throttle to the floor & hold it down. The car will not move till the brake is released.

These people with unintended acceleration are pushing the gas not the brake.
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  #96  
Old 07-29-2012, 09:20 PM
mjrbimmer335i mjrbimmer335i is offline
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
These people with unintended acceleration are pushing the gas not the brake.
That's a strong accusation to make. Although I am swayed to agree, you just never know what might have happened because cars nowadays do have so much going on inside!
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  #97  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:26 AM
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Point is no current car has enough power to overcome a fully depressed brake pedal. No electronics involved - the brake pedal to master cylinder connection is a steel rod.
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  #98  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:39 AM
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Point is no current car has enough power to overcome a fully depressed brake pedal. No electronics involved - the brake pedal to master cylinder connection is a steel rod.
+1

- Mike
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Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
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  #99  
Old 07-31-2012, 06:17 PM
pony_trekker pony_trekker is offline
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
Point is no current car has enough power to overcome a fully depressed brake pedal. No electronics involved - the brake pedal to master cylinder connection is a steel rod.


Wrong
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  #100  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:10 PM
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That is a very misleading "test" (yes, I'm saying Consumer Reports screwed up).

"Driving the Avalon down our track with the accelerator floored, our driver reached 60 mph and then pushed the brake pedal to the floor and kept it there with all the force he could muster. The Avalon finally ground to a halt, after over 500 feet. A normal stop from 60 mph would take about 140 feet."

Those brakes were tasked with fighting engine power and kinetic energy - that is above and beyond the call of duty. The brakes on a Toyota will eventually overheat and fail... as they did in the test.

We are talking about a vehicle at a standstill, or going slowly...

- Mike
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'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
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