335 driver finally takes an N52 E90 328xi for a spin

Originally Posted by Verts4Ever

Good review.

But... The "mushy" response of the 335i is a consequence of the electronic throttle toe-in/lag that is especially prevalent on the N55 coupled with the AT. It can be eliminated with an inline throttle pedal amplifier such as the Sprintbooster (as I've done on our E93) or via tunes such as the PPK or Cobb AP (for the N54).

A sprintbooster will help eliminate any ETC lag, but it's not going to fundamentally change the nature of the beast. A turbocharged engine just isn't going to give the nice crisp and sharp response that an NA engine will. The 328 also had toe-in lag.

Originally Posted by wyb

I'm also looking forward to driving the 328i x-drive - I tried the new 535i at the Drive for Team USA event in Boulder and it was horrible imo - how could a 2012 feel that way? I don't know but only in Sport+ was it REMOTELY interesting to drive - all the rest of it was just so "blah"...

You're not the only one that feels that way about the F10 unfortunately.

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

You have real need to upgrade your suspension.

Then, upgrade to JB4. The big power upgrade with ability to put it to the ground delivers confidence you didn't know existed in a 3. When ready, add Terry's meth kit - much higher octane + advance creates a superlative experience.

You'll instantly find what you're missing - the E93 is far more capable than supposed. You'll regret nothing other than not having done it sooner, and handling will be so much better that the stock configs discussed here will be, gratefully, relegated to memory.

I kid you not! Top down driving like this shouldn't be missed.

how about you just move here and do my suspension ;p

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

It does give you more torque at a lower RPM, but the N52 is more responsive. The crisp NA snap your head back response, that the N54/N55 are missing. After dropping off the 328 loaner I drove my 335 back up the same road in the exact same way and as good as it is for a turbo engine, it just didn't have that crisp naturally aspirated feel which I miss. A lot sloggier. And it does take the N54/N55 a good couple of seconds to reach full torque if you get on it hard from below 2000rpm. I like both engines quite a bit, and both perform well, but very differently and with vastly different driving characteristics.

It must be a function of the AT or one of BMW's many software changes/updates. With my MT 335, as long as you put it in the proper gear for the RPM's there is no turbo lag. I mean none at all, never has been. It pulls like a small block V8. N4S

Originally Posted by need4speed

It must be a function of the AT or one of BMW's many software changes/updates. With my MT 335, as long as you put it in the proper gear for the RPM's there is no turbo lag. I mean none at all, never has been. It pulls like a small block V8. N4S

I have an AT and have never experienced turbo lag.

CA

Originally Posted by need4speed

It must be a function of the AT or one of BMW's many software changes/updates. With my MT 335, as long as you put it in the proper gear for the RPM's there is no turbo lag. I mean none at all, never has been. It pulls like a small block V8. N4S

So you're saying that if you put it in 3rd or 4th gear at about 2000rpm and floor it, you INSTANTANELOUSLY get all 300 lb-ft of torque and your head is snapped back hard? This is a physical impossibility. The turbo does start spooling immediately so there's no lag in that sense, but you absolutely do not get full torque immediately. The turbo has to spool first. It's reactive. The difference in response characteristics between the two engines is plain as day obvious to me. I loved the instantaneous neck-snapping response of the NA 328i with the N52. It felt zippier and more agile in traffic as it would do what you wanted it to do without any delay at all. Gave me a bit more confidence while maneuvering.

Edit: I've gone for a ride in my buddy's Camaro SS and the N54/N55 response characteristics simply is not the same thing. Not even close. His is an automatic, too.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I have an AT and have never experienced turbo lag.

CA

Define what you mean by turbo lag if you could? Everybody seems to have slightly different definitions of it.

Good stuff!
I'm completely satisfied with the power and performance from my RWD 328i 6MT. It puts a smile on my face everyday of my 70 mile commute. 96k miles and still drives as great as the day she drove off the boat in '08.
Pampering her now at the stealership and taking advantage of that extended service by getting an oil change, front brakes, spark plugs, filter change and car wash all for free.

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

So you're saying that if you put it in 3rd or 4th gear at about 2000rpm and floor it, you INSTANTANELOUSLY get all 300 lb-ft of torque and your head is snapped back hard? This is a physical impossibility. The turbo does start spooling immediately so there's no lag in that sense, but you absolutely do not get full torque immediately. The turbo has to spool first. It's reactive. The difference in response characteristics between the two engines is plain as day obvious to me. I loved the instantaneous neck-snapping response of the NA 328i with the N52. It felt zippier and more agile in traffic as it would do what you wanted it to do without any delay at all. Gave me a bit more confidence while maneuvering.

Edit: I've gone for a ride in my buddy's Camaro SS and the N54/N55 response characteristics simply is not the same thing. Not even close. His is an automatic, too.

Why would I want to put it in 3rd or 4th gear at 2000 rpm, if I wanted the car to move fast?
If your definition of turbo lag is that the car is slow to respond no matter what gear you are in at low rpm (ie 6th gear at 1800 rpm) then yes I guess it has that, but no one would do that. If I am at 2000 rpm and throw it into 1st or 2nd gear then yes the power is instant. And yes, it slams your head back in the seat. I don't know about your buddys Camaro, if it is a newer one with 426HP/420Tq, it likely would slam you back with even more force than the 300ish HP/Tq on an N54. I know the N54 acts just like the V8 Mustang/Corvette stick shifts I had from the early 00's. It looks like the captain reports no turbo lag either, and in an AT. Maybe it is the soft ware that is currently on a given car. N4S

I just came back from the test drives. IMO, the 328 with AT has a hard time coordinating gear and engine and making the car do what you want it to do, right now. The Mercedes was absolutely clueless, as opposed to having a hard time, but it had a better seat and ride. The 335 sportline did everything I wanted to do, when I wanted to do it.

I definitely felt that the 328 witha 6MT would have been up to the job, as would having the SAT with paddles. The MB was hopeless except for cruising down the highway, in which it was better than the 328, whose seats were inferior.

Originally Posted by Kamdog

I just came back from the test drives. IMO, the 328 with AT has a hard time coordinating gear and engine and making the car do what you want it to do, right now. The Mercedes was absolutely clueless, as opposed to having a hard time, but it had a better seat and ride. The 335 sportline did everything I wanted to do, when I wanted to do it.

I definitely felt that the 328 witha 6MT would have been up to the job, as would having the SAT with paddles. The MB was hopeless except for cruising down the highway, in which it was better than the 328, whose seats were inferior.

If you were describing the new turbo 4 328i, let me borrow BJ's famed expression: "I can't talk to you."

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

how about you just move here and do my suspension ;p

That would be fun....now refining my alignment skills....more important than I thought....

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I have an AT and have never experienced turbo lag.

CA

+1

And a couple basic technical facts: the turbo(s) in the N54/N55 are already pretty much spooled up by 2000rpm. If you look at the torque curve, it is essentially flat from about 2000 to just over 6K. That's because the turbos are already doing their job, starting to kick in around 1400.

And in 3rd or 4th gear, you're not going to feel "whip snapping" g-force, even with 400+ ft/lbs of torque (which is ~ 35% more than a stock N54/N55). It's a simple matter of gearing. It seems you're comparing high-gear feel, but a car with 200 ft/lbs of torque in a single gear (say, third) just can't physically out-pull a car with 300 ft/lbs in the same gear (say, third).

Is turbo always on then? Since even in cruising speed, mrp is alway above 2000.

Originally Posted by need4speed

Why would I want to put it in 3rd or 4th gear at 2000 rpm, if I wanted the car to move fast?
If your definition of turbo lag is that the car is slow to respond no matter what gear you are in at low rpm (ie 6th gear at 1800 rpm) then yes I guess it has that, but no one would do that. If I am at 2000 rpm and throw it into 1st or 2nd gear then yes the power is instant. And yes, it slams your head back in the seat. I don't know about your buddys Camaro, if it is a newer one with 426HP/420Tq, it likely would slam you back with even more force than the 300ish HP/Tq on an N54. I know the N54 acts just like the V8 Mustang/Corvette stick shifts I had from the early 00's. It looks like the captain reports no turbo lag either, and in an AT. Maybe it is the soft ware that is currently on a given car. N4S

It's a test that deliberately stresses and exaggerates engine response characteristics.

Anyways I guess what this shows is that BMW product and marketing managers were completely justified in the removal of the NA I-6 engines from the U.S. market, because even a fair number of enthusiasts either don't know, can't tell, or otherwise don't care about the different response characteristics between the two types of engines and are perfectly happy with the turbos and their mushier characteristics. I spent 6 years driving a '99 Nissan Maxima with the much heralded VQ30DE engine and a 5MT, so I know full well what a super crisp and sharply responding powertrain feels like and the N54/N55 ain't it. About as good as it gets for turbo engines yes, but still not NA. Sorry. Even accounting for power differences, there's a huge difference between a GM LSx V8 powered car and the N55 also. I'm talking about impulse response.

Originally Posted by andrew b

+1

And a couple basic technical facts: the turbo(s) in the N54/N55 are already pretty much spooled up by 2000rpm. If you look at the torque curve, it is essentially flat from about 2000 to just over 6K. That's because the turbos are already doing their job, starting to kick in around 1400.

And in 3rd or 4th gear, you're not going to feel "whip snapping" g-force, even with 400+ ft/lbs of torque (which is ~ 35% more than a stock N54/N55). It's a simple matter of gearing. It seems you're comparing high-gear feel, but a car with 200 ft/lbs of torque in a single gear (say, third) just can't physically out-pull a car with 300 ft/lbs in the same gear (say, third).



http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno...-335i-Dyno.jpg

If I'm cruising or coasting down the road at 2000-3000rpm, no the turbo is not spooled.

Impulse response is what I'm talking about.

The NA engines respond more sharply but yes have less pull.
The turbo engines have more pull but are slower to respond.

Drive a 328i down the road in 3rd gear and repeatedly get on and off the throttle hard, and I got quite satisfying impulse response neck snap action. Sure the 335i will pull harder, but the impulse response of the power coming on is much duller and more gradual in comparison. Not as much neck snap. Sustained g-force your neck will be enduring with the 335i is no doubt higher though. It has more power. Duh. The response of the NA engine is just plain sharper though. The turbo is more gradual. And that sharper response is what I miss in turbo engines and is what I wish they had.

Dead stop, 1st gear, traction control full off, no brake-torquing. With a high-powered NA car you'll light the tires up right off the line if you give it heavy throttle. In the 335 it doesn't start spinning the wheels until you're midway through 1st gear. Yes part of that is throttle tip-in/delay, but after that you get the initial NA response of the engine which isn't quite strong enough to break the tires loose. After the turbo spools and yes I can hear it spooling, THEN you get all the power and the tires breaking loose.

If there's no turbo lag at all, then why has there been all this chatter and rumors about some sort of electric turbo setup, especially on the next M3? The rumored triple turbo I-6 with one of them being electric? The whole point of that is to eliminate lag and to help restore some of that crisp NA response to turbo engines.

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

If I'm cruising or coasting down the road at 2000-3000rpm, no the turbo is not spooled.

If there's no turbo lag at all, then why has there been all this chatter and rumors about some sort of electric turbo setup, especially on the next M3? The rumored triple turbo I-6 with one of them being electric? The whole point of that is to eliminate lag and to help restore some of that crisp NA response to turbo engines.

BMW eliminated lag by having the turbo a little on the vane all of the time.

Have found having my foot flat on the go pedal totally elimnates lag. Response is pronounced and immediate. There's something about our pedal...if foot off axis/not flat on, acts like turbo lag in a big way. Evidently a pedal travel design issue.

Electrically driven compressor, actually a supercharger as it's not driven by exhaust gas, should fatten low end response in a NA kind o'way. We'll see!

Imagine JB5/'lectric charger/meth pkg....

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

It's a test that deliberately stresses and exaggerates engine response characteristics.

Anyways I guess what this shows is that BMW product and marketing managers were completely justified in the removal of the NA I-6 engines from the U.S. market, because even a fair number of enthusiasts either don't know, can't tell, or otherwise don't care about the different response characteristics between the two types of engines and are perfectly happy with the turbos and their mushier characteristics. I spent 6 years driving a '99 Nissan Maxima with the much heralded VQ30DE engine and a 5MT, so I know full well what a super crisp and sharply responding powertrain feels like and the N54/N55 ain't it. About as good as it gets for turbo engines yes, but still not NA. Sorry. Even accounting for power differences, there's a huge difference between a GM LSx V8 powered car and the N55 also. I'm talking about impulse response.

Sorry, have to disagee with all this position. For 8 years I owned - and drove as I drive now - a 1998 Maxima with that great engine. And is was great. But it had nowhere near the responsiveness of my N54. My car's power/torque responsiveness is not "mushy" in any sense of the word, and I drive enough high end sports cars - turbo and NA - to be able to tell the difference.

I still think your 335i has either learned it's sluggish response from adaptations or there is something off in the programming. In MY N54, if you're in 3rd you can instantaneously get pushed back in your seat. Hmm, maybe a run up from the palisades in only 3rd gear with the GoPro recording is in order....

Auto or manual 98 Maxima?

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

Auto or manual 98 Maxima?

5 speed manual. SE, dark green (forget what that color was called). Tan leather, moonroof. Fun sedan.

Your knock sensor must have been broken.

In 3rd gear in mine, I get pushed back "instantly" also. But first there's the NA response of the engine followed by the turbo response. The overall response curve (talking slope of the curve if you were to actually plot the impulse response) just isn't as sharp as the NA engines. That's all I'm saying. And that I miss that from the NA cars.

Originally Posted by andrew b

sorry, have to disagee with all this position. For 8 years i owned - and drove as i drive now - a 1998 maxima with that great engine. And is was great. But it had nowhere near the responsiveness of my n54. My car's power/torque responsiveness is not "mushy" in any sense of the word, and i drive enough high end sports cars - turbo and na - to be able to tell the difference.

I still think your 335i has either learned it's sluggish response from adaptations or there is something off in the programming. In my n54, if you're in 3rd you can instantaneously get pushed back in your seat. Hmm, maybe a run up from the palisades in only 3rd gear with the gopro recording is in order....

+1 n4s

If you guys are so convinced... Which software update do I need or control loop do you think needs to be modified that will keep the turbo spooled up and running so that I get an instantaneous neck-snapping 300 lb-ft of torque the absolute instant I put my foot down, assuming I was sitting at idle at a light or coasting or cruising very lightly for 15-30 seconds or more beforehand?

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

If you guys are so convinced... Which software update do I need or control loop do you think needs to be modified that will keep the turbo spooled up and running so that I get an instantaneous neck-snapping 300 lb-ft of torque the absolute instant I put my foot down, assuming I was sitting at idle at a light or coasting or cruising very lightly for 15-30 seconds or more beforehand?

DTC/DSC off.

However, you stand a good chance of swervey low control op. Do you enjoy odeur de caoutchouc?

What have you tried to eliminate lag?

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

If you guys are so convinced... Which software update do I need or control loop do you think needs to be modified that will keep the turbo spooled up and running so that I get an instantaneous neck-snapping 300 lb-ft of torque the absolute instant I put my foot down, assuming I was sitting at idle at a light or coasting or cruising very lightly for 15-30 seconds or more beforehand?

I remember reading about how to reset the adaptations the trans has made to stock, but I dont' remember how to do it. A search should pull it up.

Dealer could also reset it - it's not a software upgrade, just reset it to stock and then drive it the way you want for a month or so, so it learns "proper" behaviour.