No Manual Gearbox In New M3

Originally Posted by Ilovemycar

Ok, if for discussion's sake, we say that tracksters are very, very rare, then I would submit that the subset of people who also own a dedicated (possibly street-illegal) track car are ultra super duper rare.

The discussion may have gotten a bit of course but I still hold that the vast majorty of Ferrari owners who buy them with paddle shifters do not do so because they do not know how to drive an MT.

CA

Originally Posted by beden1

You have more control with a manual driving in the snow and icy conditions.

Traffic in my area that is stop and go, drivers around me who cannot drive properly in winter, hilly areas? rather not have a manual RWD in Canadian winters. Control sure, but convenience and ease of driving? not so much.

Originally Posted by EddieB

Acura lost me as a customer when it came time to replace my 5sp MT Vigor. Toyota lost my buddy after owning 3, 4Runners to Nissan Xterra when Toyota went all slush box.

I've never owned an automatic in my life--first car 1969 VW Bug. I remember somebody asking me one time after seeing my 530i 5sp MT: "did you actually want a stick in this car"?

Eddie I am with you. Every single car I have ever owned, starting with my 1979 Camero was MT. Then I got the C350 MB thinking ok, its time to give an AT a try for every day driver. Well, every day I hated the fact it was not a manual.

I am not under the illusion I can shift faster than an DCT or the new transmissions, but I am not planning to race either. A huge part of driving enjoyment for me shifting myself instead of a computer doing it for me. I want to be in a gear I want to be in, downshift when I want for a corner etc. No AT can read my mind and that is what you lose with an AT.

Originally Posted by windsor027

Eddie I am with you. Every single car I have ever owned, starting with my 1979 Camero was MT. Then I got the C350 MB thinking ok, its time to give an AT a try for every day driver. Well, every day I hated the fact it was not a manual.

I am not under the illusion I can shift faster than an DCT or the new transmissions, but I am not planning to race either. A huge part of driving enjoyment for me shifting myself instead of a computer doing it for me. I want to be in a gear I want to be in, downshift when I want for a corner etc. No AT can read my mind and that is what you lose with an AT.

The DCT has a manual mode which puts the selection of the gears completely under the control of the driver.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The DCT has a manual mode which puts the selection of the gears completely under the control of the driver.

CA

That's entirely correct; I like manual transmissions, but I'm a numbers guy and in my car the DCT is significantly quicker. Nowadays, I get my MT fix in my Honda S2000.

In practice, I find that I rarely use the paddles in my 335is - mid corner they're out of position to easily reach. However, I find that by blipping the throttle in those decelerative situations, the transmission achieves a pretty nice rev-matching downshift all by itself.

Originally Posted by GVFlyer

In practice, I find that I rarely use the paddles in my 335is - mid corner they're out of position to easily reach. However, I find that by blipping the throttle in those decelerative situations, the transmission achieves a pretty nice rev-matching downshift all by itself.

Blipping the throttle? How can you blip the throttle without a clutch? If you are decelerating and add throttle with a DCT or other auto you are accelerating again.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The DCT has a manual mode which puts the selection of the gears completely under the control of the driver.

CA

yea but they don't offer that in the 335i do they Captain. Plus I don't know its almost unnatural with the paddles also. Point taken however I am going to try the DCT transmission one of these days and those days maybe be right after this F30 I am getting because in 3 years I doubt the manual will be around.

Originally Posted by windsor027

yea but they don't offer that in the 335i do they Captain. Plus I don't know its almost unnatural with the paddles also. Point taken however I am going to try the DCT transmission one of these days and those days maybe be right after this F30 I am getting because in 3 years I doubt the manual will be around.

I believe the title of the thread is "No Manual Gearbox in the New M3"

CA

I'm sorry for those car buyers that want to buy manuals and the rumors that DCT will be standard..

After driving manuals for over 35 years...I'm extremely impressed with the dual clutch technology.

I want this technology in mynext sports car.

JB

A DCT is one thing but an auto with torque converter is another. The latter seems to be taking over as BMWs U.S. market bread and butter and the company seems to be pushing it. It's pretty hard to find an F30 with MT on dealer inventory or order.

Originally Posted by nkeen

A DCT is one thing but an auto with torque converter is another. The latter seems to be taking over as BMWs U.S. market bread and butter and the company seems to be pushing it. It's pretty hard to find an F30 with MT on dealer inventory or order.

Autos with torque converters have made tremendous strides in the last few years and the best of them rival
DCTs in terms of shift times and performance. The torque converters are locked up out of the picture once the car is going a few miles an hour and some of the newer designs have replaced the torque converters with clutch packs.

Last fall I drove a Jaguar XKR-s with a "conventional" planetary geared auto with paddle shifters and an M3 with DCT back to back on the same roads and then on a track. There was not a significant difference and other drivers who did the same test felt the same way. As a matter of fact several of the drivers thought the Jag had a DCT until they were told otherwise. I have not driven the new BMW 8 speed automatic but I have heard very good reports on it.

CA

Originally Posted by 6spdg37s

I was under the impression they are still available just like the new M5 and that the one after this one will be no more manual.

"The one after this one" is I think next year? Considering the small volume sales of these types of cars, it is not surprising at all.

Incidentally, I find it kind of funny that some folks are talking about how any alleged performance edge with a manual doesn't matter on the streets, but then they go on and on about how much technically superior the latest autos are. No one needs to justify why they prefer a manual (or an auto). We prefer what we prefer.

Originally Posted by beden1

Sorry to burst your bubble, but my 335is with DCT gets worse gas mileage than does my son's M3 with a manual transmission

A number of folks on this forum have stated how the latest autos provide better fuel efficiency. But despite the autos having two extra gears, the manual versions of both the A4 and 328i offer slightly better mpgs on the highway. Nothing earth shattering, but let's keep things accurate.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Yeah, the phase-out is beginning. Food for thought... the 2013 S4 refresh has dropped the manual transmission for Europe... yes, you read that right, one of the sportiest mass produced sedans out there will not be offered in Europe, home of millions of die-hard manual transmission fans, with a manual tranny.

I think the very few people who can afford buying and operating cars like the M3 and S/RS Audis in Europe are either too old or too fat to bother (no offense to anyone, just a joke).

Originally Posted by Elk

Blipping the throttle? How can you blip the throttle without a clutch? If you are decelerating and add throttle with a DCT or other auto you are accelerating again.

I'm not sure as to what he was referring to either, but the DCT rev matches on it's own in either standard or sport settings. It does so more aggressively in sport mode and also includes burble and pops on deceleration.

It's a capable system for sure and it also selects the right gear 95% of the time in sport auto when I'm on back hilly roads with lots of twists and turns. But, in sport manual, it is hard to use the paddle shifters when in turns because they turn with the wheel and can't be reached unless you free a hand to do so (and, they are usually in an awkward position to reach). I also don't like the paddle shifters because they are not intuitive for me and I sometimes forget to shift. It's like your mind is saying you're driving an auto trans when in fact you are in manual mode. It's kind of a disconnect.

It's not the same when driving a manual trans. Your hand and feet seem to do the thinking for you.

Yes, now that the auto 328i's figures have been revised downward.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

A number of folks on this forum have stated how the latest autos provide better fuel efficiency. But despite the autos having two extra gears, the manual versions of both the A4 and 328i offer slightly better mpgs on the highway. Nothing earth shattering, but let's keep things accurate.

The last car I drove with DCT was a VW GTi. I have driven the F30 328i with auto. It is much improved over the old GM 6 speed in the E90, which I always thought did not work well in in the E90s I had as day loaners -- just not suited to a low torque application, and fussy and "elastic bandy" off the line. There is a distinctly different feel between the DCT and the torque converter transmissions I have driven in auto mode. But I'd much sooner have a manual than the 8-speed auto.

The one E90 that that I have driven that did work well with an auto was the 335d -- much more like the thump you'd get from a traditional OHV V8, and without the fussiness. As far as the E90 328i is concerned, the torque characteristics of our 2003 Malibu work better with an auto.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Autos with torque converters have made tremendous strides in the last few years and the best of them rival
DCTs in terms of shift times and performance. The torque converters are locked up out of the picture once the car is going a few miles an hour and some of the newer designs have replaced the torque converters with clutch packs.

Last fall I drove a Jaguar XKR-s with a "conventional" planetary geared auto with paddle shifters and an M3 with DCT back to back on the same roads and then on a track. There was not a significant difference and other drivers who did the same test felt the same way. As a matter of fact several of the drivers thought the Jag had a DCT until they were told otherwise. I have not driven the new BMW 8 speed automatic but I have heard very good reports on it.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I believe the title of the thread is "No Manual Gearbox in the New M3"

CA

I stand corrected. It is and yes if I had to go without a manual the DCT is the next best thing.

Originally Posted by beden1

But, in sport manual, it is hard to use the paddle shifters when in turns because they turn with the wheel and can't be reached unless you free a hand to do so (and, they are usually in an awkward position to reach). I also don't like the paddle shifters because they are not intuitive for me and I sometimes forget to shift. It's like your mind is saying you're driving an auto trans when in fact you are in manual mode. It's kind of a disconnect.

It's not the same when driving a manual trans. Your hand and feet seem to do the thinking for you.

Precisely my experience.

The mental disconnect continues to surprise me. Part of this may be that with an MT you always know by physical cues what gear you are in. The paddle sequential forces one to keep track, which I find less intuitive. I would like a HUD display of gear selection.

Originally Posted by Elk

Precisely my experience.

The mental disconnect continues to surprise me. Part of this may be that with an MT you always know by physical cues what gear you are in. The paddle sequential forces one to keep track, which I find less intuitive. I would like a HUD display of gear selection.

A HUD may help, but shifting a manual is more listening and feel than sight.

The demand for manual tranny is lower than you think and one day it will be a cost upgrade if available at all.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I spoke to the head of McLaren USA a while back and he said that they were not offering an MT in the MP4-12C because there was no demand for it from their customers.
Ferrari has said the same thing. They were selling so few MTs they stopped offering them in many models.

CA

Just out of curiosity, is Mansour Ojjeh still the principal owner of McLaren? I know he and his rocking brother Aziz have been shedding assets - like primary ownership of Tag-Heuer.

Originally Posted by 6spdg37s

I was under the impression they are still available just like the new M5 and that the one after this one will be no more manual. I refuse to buy a sports car with an automanual, DCT, F1, PDK , ETC;

Indeed.

You want Old School...consider the excellence of SMG

Originally Posted by Elk

I would like a HUD display of gear selection.

Ditto.

Howsabout the windshield as transparent display? A la Samsung.

Think of the possibilities....start w/Nav. Add head & eye tracking. Gestures.

But scratch telecomm - don't like monitoring.

Originally Posted by dalekressin

The demand for manual tranny is lower than you think and one day it will be a cost upgrade if available at all.

This. I bet 3 series manual transmissions are less than 5% of US sales now. For M3 probably less than 20%. At some point there is no cost justification for the manufacturers to keep offering them.

Whether that is a bad thing or not is in the eyes of the individual.