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BMW Diesel Owners / Enthusiasts
Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #1  
Old 07-18-2012, 05:09 PM
NewBMW335d NewBMW335d is offline
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Demo sold as new

Hello everyone,

I brought a 335d from a dealer who told me car is brand new and not a demo as I specifically asked for it. Credit had 33 miles in it when I took delivery so I never suspected that it's a demo.

Few days back I called BMW customer service and they told me that my car warranty is expiring 9 months before it should. When I asked for reason he said that it's a demo car and not a new one.

When I told him that it was sold to me as brand new, he said that I should resolve it with the dealer and bmw cannot do anything.

My S.A. at dealership hasn't come back to me in more than a week. In case he doesn't do anything , what do you guys think are my options.


Thanks in advance.


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  #2  
Old 07-18-2012, 05:40 PM
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Flyingman Flyingman is offline
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The vehicle had a total of 33 miles on the odometer, correct?

Although that may be a called "demo", it is certainly nothing significant.

I tried to buy a VW Touareg back in 2006 and the dealer told me it was a new one, when I arrived for test drive it had about 6k miles on it. I was pissed. Obviously I did not buy it, but did do a test drive.

Did they "reset" the miles? That would be totally illegal.

Your warranty is as of when you bought it, so the dealer has to remedy this. They can't sell you a new car at new car price and then short change you on the warranty, period.
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Last edited by Flyingman; 07-18-2012 at 05:43 PM.
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  #3  
Old 07-18-2012, 05:59 PM
NewBMW335d NewBMW335d is offline
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Yes car had 33 miles. I part which makes me unhappy is that warranty on car is less by 9 months and they lied to me.

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  #4  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:56 PM
ericwarren ericwarren is offline
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i passed up a car for the same reason.
basically, to lock in certain incentives from BMW they need to "activate" the ownership.
on yours they did so 9 months ago probably to lock in an eco credit or some incentive. they didnt drive it but the clock was running.
the sad part is the dealer has to disclose this (bmw wont if you call them before you buy).
i'd go right to the GM of the dealership and to BMW corporate in NJ.
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  #5  
Old 07-19-2012, 05:10 AM
GreekboyD GreekboyD is offline
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Wouldn't the warranty start from the day the car hits the road? For example, if a 2009 335d has 33 miles on it and the in service date of it is July 31, 2008 then that means the 4 year warranty is up in less than two weeks from today.

What would I do? I'd drive back to the dealership and confront the SA in person, cause a scene and easily get my 9 months back.

Last thing any BMW dealership wants is a potential loose cannon causing a scene.

Last edited by GreekboyD; 07-19-2012 at 05:11 AM.
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  #6  
Old 07-19-2012, 05:33 AM
NewBMW335d NewBMW335d is offline
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In my case it started about 9 months ago.

My S.A. is helpful guy but thought forum will be best place to get independent opinion.

I will call him again and let everyone know how it goes.

Thanks

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  #7  
Old 07-19-2012, 07:01 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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I thought with demo vehicles the warranties did not start until the car was sold to a customer. Matter of fact I looked recently at a 2011 C63 demo car out of state and I think it had 2800 miles on the clock and warranty was not going to start until the car was sold. I know I ran into a similar thing when I was shopping E63 and Panamera cars last fall.
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  #8  
Old 07-19-2012, 08:04 AM
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TXPearl TXPearl is offline
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The car is not a demo, but ericwarren is correct - it was already "punched" as sold nine months ago. They probably thought they had it sold and punched it to hit a monthly sales threshold or lock an incentive but then the deal fell through.

I did one of these deals about ten years ago. Didn't care since I was leasing but it was clearly disclosed by the dealer. It should have been disclosed to you as well so you could have decided up front if it matters to you or what it's worth to give up some warranty time.

How many miles/yr do you drive? Maybe it's a moot point if over 15k per year.
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:27 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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+1 that sounds like it was the case here.
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  #10  
Old 07-19-2012, 10:39 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXPearl View Post
The car is not a demo, but ericwarren is correct - it was already "punched" as sold nine months ago. They probably thought they had it sold and punched it to hit a monthly sales threshold or lock an incentive but then the deal fell through.

I did one of these deals about ten years ago. Didn't care since I was leasing but it was clearly disclosed by the dealer. It should have been disclosed to you as well so you could have decided up front if it matters to you or what it's worth to give up some warranty time.

How many miles/yr do you drive? Maybe it's a moot point if over 15k per year.
Yep..this is it. It was punched as sold so the warranty started running the day they punched it. My current 535i was the same way...I did not care because I will retire the warranty on mileage rather than time.
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  #11  
Old 07-20-2012, 11:24 PM
boooomer boooomer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewBMW335d View Post
Hello everyone,

I brought a 335d from a dealer who told me car is brand new and not a demo as I specifically asked for it. Credit had 33 miles in it when I took delivery so I never suspected that it's a demo.

Few days back I called BMW customer service and they told me that my car warranty is expiring 9 months before it should. When I asked for reason he said that it's a demo car and not a new one.

When I told him that it was sold to me as brand new, he said that I should resolve it with the dealer and bmw cannot do anything.

My S.A. at dealership hasn't come back to me in more than a week. In case he doesn't do anything , what do you guys think are my options.


Thanks in advance.
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Unfortunately this is becoming more common. There is no way for a consumer to know when the dealer records a fictitious sale with the mfg to gain an advantage with quotas. and if they don't disclose to the buyer that there is less warranty than what's indicated in the purchase documents i.e. the warranty book, then I think you're entitled to the full mfg.'s warranty.

Apparently my Audi A3 was in the same situation. When I took the car in for service for what I thought was work that would have been covered just before the expiration of the warranty, I was told by the dealer in Palm Beach (not the one I bought it from in NY) that the warranty had expired 2 months earlier. I showed them the sales document indicating that it was sold as a new car just 46 months earlier.
The dealer in Palm Beach explained that the selling dealer listed a fictitious sale to Audi to make a quota, but never actually sold the car until I purchased it two months later. I was never informed that the car only had a 46 month warranty instead of the usual 48 months.
I was ready to contact Audi directly, but the Palm Beach Audi dealer said, that after consultation with Audi America, the work would be covered - so I never had to pursue the issue. (the work was worth about $500).

I would take this issue "up the food chain" to a person who has the authority to make it right - both at the selling dealer and BMW. I would not let BMW off the hook on this. While the GM at the dealer might say that they will warrant the car for the 9 months in question, you might find yourself in my situation, having moved out of the area where I purchased the car. I needed the backing of Audi to cover the repairs. Even if the NY dealer said they would have performed the work at their expense, I wasn't about to travel 1400 miles to get the work done.

Do you have a document that indicates that the car is sold to you as new?
Do you have the New car warranty from BMW?
If you have both, then you bought a car with a new car warranty from BMW for 48 months. Unless the dealer can prove otherwise - this is fraud. And BMW has skin in this as they license the dealer and issue the new car warranty.

In order to effectively "negotiate" this, I would find out what steps are required to register a complaint of fraud with your state's Attorney General. I would have that in your back pocket if discussions don't go the way you want them to.

Conversely how does a consumer protect themselves from this. I think It's impossible. The consumer has no access to the sales arrangements between the dealer and BMW.

I would suspect that the leftover 2011 335Ds still sitting in the dealers lots are at risk for this sort of BS. But how does a consumer safeguard against this? In the case of my A3 every service work order for my Audi, had the in-service date as the date of sale to me - not the date that the Audi had actually recorded the sale some two months earlier. So this was really concealed.

Good luck with this and pls keep us posted.
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  #12  
Old 07-21-2012, 05:32 AM
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AutoUnion AutoUnion is offline
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This happens all the time

I bought an Audi couple years ago and it had around 100 miles on it, but the dealer marked it as sold like four months before to get the incentives. Dealer manager just drafted me an official letter stating that the dealer will take of anything for that extra period, if Audi didn't.
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  #13  
Old 07-21-2012, 07:57 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boooomer View Post
Unfortunately this is becoming more common. There is no way for a consumer to know when the dealer records a fictitious sale with the mfg to gain an advantage with quotas. and if they don't disclose to the buyer that there is less warranty than what's indicated in the purchase documents i.e. the warranty book, then I think you're entitled to the full mfg.'s warranty.

Apparently my Audi A3 was in the same situation. When I took the car in for service for what I thought was work that would have been covered just before the expiration of the warranty, I was told by the dealer in Palm Beach (not the one I bought it from in NY) that the warranty had expired 2 months earlier. I showed them the sales document indicating that it was sold as a new car just 46 months earlier.
The dealer in Palm Beach explained that the selling dealer listed a fictitious sale to Audi to make a quota, but never actually sold the car until I purchased it two months later. I was never informed that the car only had a 46 month warranty instead of the usual 48 months.
I was ready to contact Audi directly, but the Palm Beach Audi dealer said, that after consultation with Audi America, the work would be covered - so I never had to pursue the issue. (the work was worth about $500).

I would take this issue "up the food chain" to a person who has the authority to make it right - both at the selling dealer and BMW. I would not let BMW off the hook on this. While the GM at the dealer might say that they will warrant the car for the 9 months in question, you might find yourself in my situation, having moved out of the area where I purchased the car. I needed the backing of Audi to cover the repairs. Even if the NY dealer said they would have performed the work at their expense, I wasn't about to travel 1400 miles to get the work done.

Do you have a document that indicates that the car is sold to you as new?
Do you have the New car warranty from BMW?
If you have both, then you bought a car with a new car warranty from BMW for 48 months. Unless the dealer can prove otherwise - this is fraud. And BMW has skin in this as they license the dealer and issue the new car warranty.

In order to effectively "negotiate" this, I would find out what steps are required to register a complaint of fraud with your state's Attorney General. I would have that in your back pocket if discussions don't go the way you want them to.

Conversely how does a consumer protect themselves from this. I think It's impossible. The consumer has no access to the sales arrangements between the dealer and BMW.

I would suspect that the leftover 2011 335Ds still sitting in the dealers lots are at risk for this sort of BS. But how does a consumer safeguard against this? In the case of my A3 every service work order for my Audi, had the in-service date as the date of sale to me - not the date that the Audi had actually recorded the sale some two months earlier. So this was really concealed.

Good luck with this and pls keep us posted.
I agree that this should have been disclosed to you prior to the sale. This is probably why Audi agreed to cover the work. I have purchased a few punched cars in my lifetime, but I always asked because I knew how the system worked. I bet many dealers try to hide this because they are afraid the buyer will decline the car if they knew it had less warranty. The best thing one can do is ask if the car has been reported to the manufacturer as sold. If they tell you no and it has it is clearly fraud. If they tell you it has then you can find out the punch date and determine if that is a problem for you and/or use that to negotiate the price lower. Glad to hear Audi stepped up to bat for you because Audi rarely does. I suspect that it was covered because Braman went to bat for you to resolve the issue. I have been buying from Braman for years and they have always done right by me.
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:59 AM
boooomer boooomer is offline
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Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Glad to hear Audi stepped up to bat for you because Audi rarely does. I suspect that it was covered because Braman went to bat for you to resolve the issue. I have been buying from Braman for years and they have always done right by me.
I think that is exactly why Audi did it. I think Braman Audi is an outstanding dealer - not only because of the way they handled Audi, but also because their SA's really know their cars, and they are empowered. I did not have to go past the SA to get this resolved. And this effort was on a car that they did not sell. In fact this was the first time I walked into their shop! I think that's remarkable. And their service on the car has been excellent as well. The SA even reminded that even though my new car warranty was expiring, there is an extended warranty on the HPFP for the 2T.

And, so far, I am receiving the same quality from Braman BMW.:thumb up:

My hat goes off to the OP for posting this as I did not know this is as commonplace as it is. I thought my situation was an unusual one. I truly hope you are able to get this resolved to your satisfaction. And assuming that you are successful, how you were abel accomplished this. 9 months is a long time and given the cost to repair our Ds that could be worth a lot of money.

But as i reflect on the OP's original question, how does one protect themselves from a less than scrupulous dealer who doesn't disclose that the car was "punched" earlier? And I think the mfg.'s are allowing this to happen because it's less months of warranty. How would anyone know that their BMW wasn't "punched" earlier?
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:29 AM
Maybe335d Maybe335d is offline
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Does CarFax do anything in circumstances like this? Would it even "see" car like this, that have never been registered? Does it show the date the car was "punched"?
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  #16  
Old 07-21-2012, 12:11 PM
NewBMW335d NewBMW335d is offline
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Sorry guys I was out of town for couple of days and couldn't reply. My S.A. will call me today evening to go over what can be done.

But main thing which got me pissed was BMW customer service. Guy I talked to said I have to resolve it with dealer and they can't do anything from their side.

BMW wants to sell luxury cars without luxury aftersales service. Feel like I should go back to many old non luxury car company. May be last BMW in this life.



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  #17  
Old 07-21-2012, 12:14 PM
NewBMW335d NewBMW335d is offline
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BTW car was punched as new in all documents, not add demo or used.

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  #18  
Old 07-21-2012, 02:00 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewBMW335d View Post
But main thing which got me pissed was BMW customer service. Guy I talked to said I have to resolve it with dealer and they can't do anything from their side.

BMW wants to sell luxury cars without luxury aftersales service. Feel like I should go back to many old non luxury car company. May be last BMW in this life.
Yeah, BMWNA is a freakin joke. When I was having my issues early on in ownership I contacted them and they basically kept telling me the same line you got. I have had random issues over the years with some other make cars and the response I got from the "corporate" entities was light years better than BMW. To me it almost seems like BMWNA was to take absolutely zero stance on anything that way they can't be held accountable for it either way.
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  #19  
Old 07-21-2012, 10:45 PM
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1. This IS DISCLOSED to the buyer...99% of people just sign where they are told to sign and don't understand what they are signing. Compounding this error, they ASK the finance manager or flunk 'what does this mean?'..crazy. You want to look at the sales contract where it has inservice date and warranty end date.

2. People fail to understand that BMWNA is one company, and the dealership is AN ENTIRELY SEPARATE COMPANY. The dealer buys the car from BMW and sells it to you. How does the original wholesaler (BMW) reach into a deal between you and the dealer? yes, it would be nice if BMW could hold some power over dealers to make you happy, but the truth is YOU failed to read and understand the closing documents. (The historical reason for this situation is that back in the early days, BMW was just a funky, great handling car and BMW dealer got to call the shots..BMWAG was forced to let dealers do what they wanted...now, BMWAG and NA have a tough time reeling in dealers...)

3. A demo can be a 'new' car. New simply means 'never titled'... in this case, as has been discussed, the DEALER told BMWNA, 'this is the inservice date' (ie punched it). So from BMW's viewpoint- why is BMWNA responsible for trying to figure out the mess?

Having said this, DO review every document with a fine tooth comb. Any errors or misrepresentations, TALK TO A LAWYER.

As far as what the dealer will do, UNLESS you find they have a legal exposure, they will do nothing. Maybe offer an insulting discount on an extended warranty, or an empty assurnace if anyuthing happens at the end of the warranty, they'll look out for you. You need to realize the SA's job is to manage you and shut you up- make you FELL like they give a crap- but the management and finance guy are telling him "make him go away"

Ever the pessimist-

GL

A
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:51 PM
NewBMW335d NewBMW335d is offline
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Thanks guys for replying.

My SA came back and is putting story that they discounted the car because it was demo and had less warranty. But they never declared this to me through out the process. I even asked him on phone before buying it that if its a demo or not.

I believe I never signed a paper which had information about less warranty on the car. Do you think that its worth to talk to lawyer? Any suggestion on good lawyer in D.C. area.

Thanks again
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  #21  
Old 08-15-2012, 09:22 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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There was an article on Jalopnik about BMW selling cars to dealers for service loaners at a steep discount to run up the sales numbers. These of course would have been "punched" and been "in service" when this was done, so they would have really been used cars, but could have been sold as "new".
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:03 PM
ard ard is online now
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Originally Posted by NewBMW335d View Post

I believe I never signed a paper which had information about less warranty on the car.n
You "believe"?!?!?!?

Do you not have the ability to simply LOOK at them now???

Here, I'll save you $500:

Send me the documents, I'll look fo r the spot where it tells you when the warranty ends, and then say to you "you have no case".

Or, he'll lie and say "I can take it for a 5000 retainer".

A

PS If you are like 99% of the car buying public, you actually SPEAK to the finance person at signing and ask them to explain what yu are signing- and didnt read and understand it...
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:21 PM
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No pun intended to New BMW335d but that is why I have ordered my last two cars ('02 MCS/'11 335d) and intend to do so on my next one, lets say in the next 10 years!!
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  #24  
Old 08-15-2012, 07:05 PM
NewBMW335d NewBMW335d is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
You "believe"?!?!?!?

Do you not have the ability to simply LOOK at them now???

Here, I'll save you $500:

Send me the documents, I'll look fo r the spot where it tells you when the warranty ends, and then say to you "you have no case".

Or, he'll lie and say "I can take it for a 5000 retainer".

A

PS If you are like 99% of the car buying public, you actually SPEAK to the finance person at signing and ask them to explain what yu are signing- and didnt read and understand it...

I said I believe because document I have has car punched in new and don't contain warranty information. Way my SA was talking on me after I raised this issue made me confident that I didn't sign any doc containing less then full time warranty info.


Since I brought car in march of this year therefore didn't have opportunity to custom order it. I will stop by dealer office and ask them to show doc in case I missed something.




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  #25  
Old 08-15-2012, 11:16 PM
ard ard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewBMW335d View Post
I said I believe because document I have has car punched in new and don't contain warranty information. Way my SA was talking on me after I raised this issue made me confident that I didn't sign any doc containing less then full time warranty info.


Since I brought car in march of this year therefore didn't have opportunity to custom order it. I will stop by dealer office and ask them to show doc in case I missed something.

You should look at the documents you signed, then you dont need to 'believe' anything... if you signed stuff and didnt keep copies, relying on the dealer to give you ammunition for a claim is...well...hopeful.

The car IS NEW. Why do people get confused? You bought a NEW car that had NEVER BEEN TITLED, with 500 miles on it and an inservice date some months before...no big mystery, no 'case' here. I could look at my documents but they are CA...likely different docs for PA...I expect one of two things:

1. PA has no law that requires they disclose the warranty start date or inservice date....OR

2. There is a document with your signature that you didnt read that has this date on it.


BUT...maybe they messed up. Surely worth looking into it.
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