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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #76  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:42 PM
Whippa Whippa is offline
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Making a point that the Touareg is very similar to a Cayenne shows how clueless you really are. Porsche employs the use of much more aluminum to cut down weight and the engines aren't just the same as the VW equivalent. The base V6 has been upgraded to put down more power in the Porsche and the TDI is also slightly diff't than the Treg version.
Road and track suffers from the Clueless conclusion:

The Cayenne borrows its 3.0-liter turbo-diesel V-6 and eight-speed automatic transmission from the diesel versions of the Audi Q7 and Volkswagen Touareg. For the Porsche, though, power is upped from 225 hp to 240-torque is the same in all three vehicles at an ample 406 lb-ft. All-wheel drive is standard. We quite liked this powertrain as installed in our long-term Audi Q7 TDI, so with the added power, lower weight, and Porsche-tuned chassis, this Cayenne should be even more pleasant. Porsche pegs the diesel Cayenne's 0-to-60-mph time at 7.2 seconds, a number we expect to improve on somewhat; when we last tested the slightly heavier Touareg TDI, the sprint took just 6.9 seconds.


Quote:
You really think Porsche just keeps the basic Touareg suspension in the Cayenne? Let's be real here.
Look up the specs : both are front double wishbone front and multilink rear on both base models , Now the Cayenne does have the "PASM" option much like the BMW AD , but my friend the base suspension is the same.

Quote:
Porsche employs the use of much more aluminum to cut down weight
The curb on the Diesel Cayenne is 4795# The curb on the TDI Toureg is 4795# so yes that is 179# ....not too much aluminum...none mentioned in thier specs by the way.

I am not saying they are exact units , but I do say they are very similiar in base units by Porsche own specs...........not to see that is to just have that badge too close to your eye ....(:

Oh by the way ....Thanks for the welcome...
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  #77  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:43 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Making a point that the Touareg is very similar to a Cayenne shows how clueless you really are. Porsche employs the use of much more aluminum to cut down weight and the engines aren't just the same as the VW equivalent. The base V6 has been upgraded to put down more power in the Porsche and the TDI is also slightly diff't than the Treg version.

The Porsche Cayenne is available with significantly more advanced chassis technology than either BMW or VW. PASM, PTV, PCCB, among other things.
I don't like the word "clueless" but the truth is that the Touareg and Cayenne are VERY different vehicles, although each share the "basic" platform and engine (only in the V6 and Hybrid).

The curb weight alone tells a big story:

Porsche Cayenne Diesel = 4,795 lbs
Volkswagen Touareg TDI = 4,974 lbs (+179 lbs)
BMW X5 35d = 5,192 lbs (+397 lbs)

In addition to lower mass (more aluminum in the Porsche), all of the powertrain software is unique, suspension tuning is unique, as is the steering and braking feel. They drive completely different to each other.

- Mike
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  #78  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Whippa View Post
Road and track suffers from the Clueless conclusion:

The Cayenne borrows its 3.0-liter turbo-diesel V-6 and eight-speed automatic transmission from the diesel versions of the Audi Q7 and Volkswagen Touareg. For the Porsche, though, power is upped from 225 hp to 240-torque is the same in all three vehicles at an ample 406 lb-ft. All-wheel drive is standard. We quite liked this powertrain as installed in our long-term Audi Q7 TDI, so with the added power, lower weight, and Porsche-tuned chassis, this Cayenne should be even more pleasant. Porsche pegs the diesel Cayenne's 0-to-60-mph time at 7.2 seconds, a number we expect to improve on somewhat; when we last tested the slightly heavier Touareg TDI, the sprint took just 6.9 seconds.




Look up the specs : both are front double wishbone front and multilink rear on both base models , Now the Cayenne does have the "PASM" option much like the BMW AD , but my friend the base suspension is the same.



The curb on the Diesel Cayenne is 4795# The curb on the TDI Toureg is 4795# so yes that is 179# ....not too much aluminum...none mentioned in thier specs by the way.

I am not saying they are exact units , but I do say they are very similiar in base units by Porsche own specs...........not to see that is to just have that badge too close to your eye ....(:

Oh by the way ....Thanks for the welcome...
Read Mike's reply above. He works for Autoblog and clearly knows what he's talking about.
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  #79  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Whippa View Post
Road and track suffers from the Clueless conclusion...


The curb on the Diesel Cayenne is 4795# The curb on the TDI Toureg is 4795# so yes that is 179# ....not too much aluminum...none mentioned in thier specs by the way.

I am not saying they are exact units , but I do say they are very similiar in base units by Porsche own specs...........not to see that is to just have that badge too close to your eye ....(:

Oh by the way ....Thanks for the welcome...
I know all the guys at R&T. Cool team, but they also make mistakes. We all do.

Keep in mind that the change from steel to aluminum isn't just a direct subtraction. Aluminum is about 50 percent lighter, so to save 179 lbs you need to replace about 360 pounds of steel with the alloy! That is a boatload... very expensive.

- Mike
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  #80  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Read Mike's reply above. He works for Autoblog and clearly knows what he's talking about.
Thanks... I've got tons of insight and inside information, but I do make mistakes (feel free to correct me, as I enjoy learning).

I've driven both the VW TDI and Cayenne Diesel — very different animals, regardless of the shared powerplant.

- Mike
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  #81  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Thanks... I've got tons of insight and inside information, but I do make mistakes (feel free to correct me, as I enjoy learning).

I've driven both the VW TDI and Cayenne Diesel — very different animals, regardless of the shared powerplant.

- Mike
As have I (petrol models) though. Even in a quick 5 minute drive, it's easy to tell that they are different in every way.

It's pretty interesting that so many E70s owners on here rave about the PC
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  #82  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Apples to apples? or AD to whatever P offers? just curious.

A
The one I drove in Europe felt less springy off the line... but again, it was a Euro-only model (while they are both 3.0-liter engines, I think the Euro-only model has a completely different injection/intake, to meet Euro emissions regulations). I had a long talk with the Porsche engineer over it earlier this year... too many beers.

- Mike
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  #83  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:53 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by Whippa View Post
I have been trolling this forum for a while as I contemplate buying a X5 latter this year...to be honest this thread has caused me to lose some confidence in the opinions of some of the frequent posters. I read all the trash put on the VW Toureg as a bad handler
and weak engine...but bring up the Porche Cayenne Diesel and presto ..."wunderlust" I know all of you here know that they share the same engine, transmission and chasis... so tell me how does the handling go from below BMW standard in a Toureg to worth 15K more when your change the sheetmetal shape and put on that badge ? I did test the TouregTDI, X5-35d and the Cayenne (Hybrid) , since the Cayenne was the Hybrid I could not relate to the performance..but for those that raved about the interior of the Cayenne ,, I assume you ignored the most important part of the interior ...."The Seats" You cant tell me the Cayenne seats get close to the 20 pos "multicontour" The other issue is interior room... I really felt "crampted" in the Cayenne , but I am a wide body 6'3.

I do realize that the look and badge issue is obviously a big deal for many here , but when it comes to functionallity of the engine , transmission and suspention, I would expect some consistancy when comparing the Toureg and Cayenne , particularly when the Loaded Toureg TDI is less than $60 K. The one very valid point made here that led me away from the Toureg was that the service dept of most VW dealerships were not prepared for the demands of the "high-end" consumer.
You might be surprised how little the Cayenne and Touareg actually share. It's largely the chassis. The performance parts are pretty much all Porsche. Slightly different with the V6 models as the engines are derived from an Audi unit, but above that it's all unique to Porsche You also underestimate Porsche's suspension engineers at your peril. These guys are about the best in the business. Either way, Porsche does require an ability to pony up if you want in. It's easily worth the premium, you get what you pay for, but as always your mileage may vary.
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  #84  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
As have I (petrol models) though. Even in a quick 5 minute drive, it's easy to tell that they are different in every way.

It's pretty interesting that so many E70s owners on here rave about the PC
For now, the PC is the benchmark.

I drive the GTS model in Austria last month. I was drooling (nevermind fuel economy).

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/05/2...-review-video/

Watch my (lame) video and you can hear the exhaust note as one pulls away at the end.

I really, really, really want the next-gen X5 to take back the podium

- Mike
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  #85  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Emission View Post
For now, the PC is the benchmark.

I drive the GTS model in Austria last month. I was drooling (nevermind fuel economy).

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/05/2...-review-video/
What an awesome looking car. I love the Turbo wheels. It's ridiculous just how good Porsche engineer's were able to tune the chassis on the PC



Quote:

Watch my (lame) video and you can hear the exhaust note as one pulls away at the end.

Even the last GTS was a fantastic SUV. I was able to drive one years ago. The N/A V8 is an awesome powerplant.

I really, really, really want the next-gen X5 to take back the podium

- Mike
Unfortunately, if it gains weight, then it definitely won't
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  #86  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:37 PM
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serge1 serge1 is offline
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I honestly don't understand all the rave about Cayenne Diesel. The numbers are not impressive at all, but all the articles scream like it's the best thing since sliced bread.
Look at this:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/03/2...ue-28-mpg-hwy/
2013 Porsche Cayenne Diesel offers monster torque, 28 MPG HWY
"That's enough power to propel the super-SUV to 60 in 7.2 seconds and 135 miles per hour on the track"

Have they heard of X5 40d/35d? Are they aware of specs of x5m 50d?
That's a standard now, so you can't apply words like "monster" to anything below that.

I have read similar descriptions about Infinity FX30d. Posting numbers (torque, hp) average or below in class, then calling them "class leading", etc.
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  #87  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:50 PM
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kanar200 kanar200 is offline
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I do not understand it either, but I am happy that some of the BMW owners are ready to pay the premium for Porsche. The competition is a good thing.
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  #88  
Old 07-23-2012, 11:12 PM
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I do not understand it either, but I am happy that some of the BMW owners are ready to pay the premium for Porsche. The competition is a good thing.
I have spent hours upon hours with the engineers from both companies. In that time, I have never heard the Porsche team discuss "cost cutting" or "savings" or even mention something is done "this way" or "that way" to keep the price down... with the exception of the VW-sourced engine in the Cayenne V6 (that one vehicle is priced just to bait X5 and ML-Class owners away from their brands). They honestly don't have any direct competitors. Porsche engineers can do just about anything they want, and they now have very deep pockets and a huge bucket of parts to pull from (VW Group).

BMW, on the other hand, is very price sensitive. They are always talking about the competition from Mercedes-Benz and Audi... no getting around it. Does BMW build a damn good car? Of course they do... but they are apples to oranges when compared to a Porsche.

Go drive the hell out of a Cayenne, then do the same in the Touareg... night and day.

The competition is a very good thing!

- Mike
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  #89  
Old 07-24-2012, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Whippa View Post
Road and track suffers from the Clueless conclusion:
Look up the specs : both are front double wishbone front and multilink rear on both base models , Now the Cayenne does have the "PASM" option much like the BMW AD , but my friend the base suspension is the same.
The simple answer is not all double wishbone and multilink rear suspension are the same (e.g., my 99 E50 had the same setup); not all adaptive drive systems are the same, not to mention the number of diving combinations when coupled with air suspension and how the active stabilization can be completely disengaged during offroading. Hence, the price difference. I think if your local Porsche dealers offer tech sessions, hosted by Porsche USA, they can better clarify your questions and provide very knowledgeable explanations (e.g., VW suspension vs VW-based Porsche suspension; VW V6 vs VW-sourced V6 in the base model; why pick Cayenne when you can have a touareg for 10k-15k cheaper). Even without AD, the Cayenne's handling is reminiscent of the E60 - tossable, light, and agile - for a SUV that's the same size as an X5. Is it worth the 10k-15k premium? Similar analogy can also be drawn from the example of Rolex Daytona. Why would a consumer be willing to purchase a Daytona at MSRP, while one could have a comparable brand and model at half the price and three times the accuracy? Again, why would one pay a premium (or mark up) for a zenith-sourced el primero (4080) Daytona when one could have a Zenith watch that uses the similar movement, which has even higher bit rate per second and a date indicator, at the fraction cost of the Daytona? Call them fools if you will.

Last edited by zero4588; 07-24-2012 at 03:52 AM.
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  #90  
Old 07-24-2012, 04:47 AM
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TDI engine same in Cayenne and Touareg

Based on the numbers, it sure looks like the Cayenne diesel engine is the exactly same as in Touareg:

2013 Cayenne diesel: 3.0 l - 240 hp - 406 lb/ft
2013 Touareg diesel: 3.0 l - 240 hp - 406 lb/ft
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  #91  
Old 07-24-2012, 09:10 AM
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I have no doubts that PC is a very good car. Here we are talking about diesel version…. I have no doubts that BMW diesel is much better than Audi/VW/Skoda/Porsche diesel. I have driven many diesels from this group. They are a few years behind BMW with diesel technology (they switched to common rail technology relatively not a long time ago).

My X5 is without AD (which I regret very much), but I can't imagine that X5 with AD handles $15-20k worse than PC

Design is a subjective thing – even if X5 and PC were priced at the same level, I would not go for PC because of the design.
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  #92  
Old 07-24-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by kanar200 View Post
I have no doubts that PC is a very good car. Here we are talking about diesel version…. I have no doubts that BMW diesel is much better than Audi/VW/Skoda/Porsche diesel. I have driven many diesels from this group. They are a few years behind BMW with diesel technology (they switched to common rail technology relatively not a long time ago).

My X5 is without AD (which I regret very much), but I can't imagine that X5 with AD handles $15-20k worse than PC

Design is a subjective thing – even if X5 and PC were priced at the same level, I would not go for PC because of the design.
The current VAG 3.0 TDI is more advanced than the M57 in the US. It uses a newer generation of Bosch's CRD technology. Not to mention, the VAG unit is smoother, quieter, and yields better fuel economy than the M57 in the USA.
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  #93  
Old 07-24-2012, 09:23 AM
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I honestly don't understand all the rave about Cayenne Diesel. The numbers are not impressive at all, but all the articles scream like it's the best thing since sliced bread.
Look at this:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/03/2...ue-28-mpg-hwy/
2013 Porsche Cayenne Diesel offers monster torque, 28 MPG HWY
"That's enough power to propel the super-SUV to 60 in 7.2 seconds and 135 miles per hour on the track"

Have they heard of X5 40d/35d? Are they aware of specs of x5m 50d?
That's a standard now, so you can't apply words like "monster" to anything below that.

I have read similar descriptions about Infinity FX30d. Posting numbers (torque, hp) average or below in class, then calling them "class leading", etc.
BMW isn't the only one making monster diesels in Europe. Audi has a high output Bi-Turbo 3.0TDI in Europe and lets not forget that VAG also makes the 6.0 V12 TDI in the Q7 and the old V10 in the Touareg
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  #94  
Old 07-24-2012, 09:38 AM
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Let's not compare a few years old technology of M57 which is sold in the US (and only in the US!) with a "new" technology of VAG. Let's wait what BMW will bring in 2013 to the US. Regardless, I am talking about diesel technology in these two groups - IMO BMW has better diesels (quitter, more responsive, better mileage, etc.). Unfortunately, only old technology is available in the US.
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  #95  
Old 07-24-2012, 10:56 AM
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Sadly it seems as if the only "new" technology we get here is the (often problematic) urea system! Mike - enjoyed the GTS review! I have to say the best V8 sound I ever heard was on my '53 Ford with Douglass Steel-paks! Sadly no one remembers those glory days of the '50's with the blocked heat risers and straight through mufflers!

Last edited by UncleJ; 07-24-2012 at 11:03 AM.
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  #96  
Old 07-26-2012, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by finnbmw View Post
Based on the numbers, it sure looks like the Cayenne diesel engine is the exactly same as in Touareg:

2013 Cayenne diesel: 3.0 l - 240 hp - 406 lb/ft
2013 Touareg diesel: 3.0 l - 240 hp - 406 lb/ft
While output appears identical, it is a second-generation of the engine (I think VW will get the second-gen engine next year, as it does better with emissions). I did this report from New York, discussing the differences between the Euro engine and ours:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/04/2...new-york-2012/

- Mike
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  #97  
Old 08-24-2012, 01:54 PM
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I got to drive the Cayenne diesel today and thought it really rode and handled great.

The dealer said the official sell date was not even until Sept 1st. Since there are little to no discounts, I estimate that I would be paying about $10k more than a similar optioned X5 with each SUV having a few different features that the other does not.

I would be trading in a Mercedes GL350, which is great cruising car with usable third row seats and a ton of space, but definitely not sporty as the X5 or Cayenne.

Last edited by DBV; 08-24-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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  #98  
Old 08-24-2012, 02:21 PM
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I got to drive the Cayenne diesel today and thought it really rode and handled great.

The dealer said the official sell date was not even until Sept 1st. Since there are little to no discounts, I estimate that I would be paying about $10k more than a similar optioned X5 with each SUV having a few different features that the other does not.
Wow, only $10k?

I built a Cayenne TDI the other day online and it was about $20k OTD more than my X5d. Next time around, I'm down to drop the extra cash because I honestly think the Cayenne is better than the X5 in many diff't ways. Plus it's a Porsche

(disclaimer, this is if BMW messes up the next X5)
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:38 PM
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I think so - maybe $12k at the most, but the one I looked at had some options that were not in the X5 I was looking at. For example, blind spot - which worked great!

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Wow, only $10k?

I built a Cayenne TDI the other day online and it was about $20k OTD more than my X5d. Next time around, I'm down to drop the extra cash because I honestly think the Cayenne is better than the X5 in many diff't ways. Plus it's a Porsche

(disclaimer, this is if BMW messes up the next X5)
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:05 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Dang, those pictures of the GTS in the review is mouth watering and the review hits home in a bad way "most engaging" just what I love. We are pretty much set on a Cayenne V6 as our do it all, go everywhere ( well not everywhere but light off-road ) in any weather and most important dependable SUV with the style and luxury my wife deserves but after seeing and reading that I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't go for the GTS. Hmmm we are getting further and further away from the 4-Runner I voted for... I need to forget I saw that review, quickly.

Last edited by solstice; 08-24-2012 at 09:06 PM.
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