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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 02-13-2011, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franka View Post
Then their is 'force balancing'. Sorta gimmicky too.
"Sorta" gimmicky. Have you had one done? One of the things it does, is it automatically turn/slide the tire on the rim to match the tire heavy point to the rim light point. It will therefore use the least amount of weights for the final balance. Kinda like matching the dot on the rim to the dots on the tire, but calculating it on its own. (or something like that).

I have done it only once when the tires were brand new. Then I didn't care to pay the extra money for it.

None of the stores in my area heard about on the car balance. Not even big "hi-end" tire shops. It is very difficult to find a tire shop or tech who will know or even care enough to do a good mounting and balancing job. Most to all of them just want to mount the tire, do a sorta ok balance, and send you on your way. They have no pride in their work and they have no understanding that some cars, like the BMW, need the best balance possible because it is so prone to vibrations if the balance is not 100%.

mw
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  #27  
Old 02-13-2011, 06:56 PM
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My grandfather was a heavy equipment mechanic, he worked with on the car balancing years ago. Says that unless Hunter has picked up their game they're the best off the car but can't match on the car Let's get back on topic?
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  #28  
Old 02-13-2011, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatWiz View Post
"Sorta" gimmicky. Have you had one done? One of the things it does, is it automatically turn/slide the tire on the rim to match the tire heavy point to the rim light point. It will therefore use the least amount of weights for the final balance. Kinda like matching the dot on the rim to the dots on the tire, but calculating it on its own. (or something like that).
I think you have that confused with something else. Sliding or turning or rotating the tire on the rim or wheel is not force balancing, per se. Though that could be included if new or old tires are mounted.
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  #29  
Old 02-13-2011, 08:12 PM
franka franka is offline
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[QUOTE=MatWiz;5846347 It is very difficult to find a tire shop or tech who will know or even care enough to do a good mounting and balancing job. Most to all of them just want to mount the tire, do a sorta ok balance, and send you on your way. mw[/QUOTE]

So, so true. And such a sad situation.
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  #30  
Old 02-14-2011, 05:37 AM
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I used to have my wheels balanced "on the car" every time. The guy sits on a machine and pushes it up to touch your tyre. The machine has a wheel which turns the car's wheel and spins it to quite high revs. At the end of the test the machine tells the guy where to put the weights, just like a regular wheel balancer. It's very accurate. Sadly, nobody here seems to have the machine any more.

With regard to the black dot on wheels, where is the black dot in relation to the valve hole? Oposite? Or does it vary?
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  #31  
Old 02-14-2011, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franka View Post
I think you have that confused with something else. Sliding or turning or rotating the tire on the rim or wheel is not force balancing, per se. Though that could be included if new or old tires are mounted.
I'm not saying that sliding/rotating is a force balance. I am saying that it is part of the procedure that the Hunter Force Balance machine is doing. BTW, have you seen one in action? It goes through some lengthy procedure there. Quite cool to watch.

mw
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  #32  
Old 09-25-2012, 06:03 PM
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Somewhat related is this post today about E39 wheel specs being different than most:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > will e46 rims fit e39?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo12 View Post
Dennis and Qsilver make some very good points. But if for some reason you do really want to run e46 rims it may be possible. You need to address two things, the hub bores and the offset of the e46 wheels.
  1. Bore: either elarge the 72.56mm e46 wheel bore to 74.1mm (at a machine shop) or use something like spacer adapters.
  2. Offset: Make sure you can get the wheels and tires into e39 spec with spacers






lovemy 98 528i is correct they absolutley make adapters spacers that allow you to run 72.56mm wheels on 74.1mm hubs. H&R make some in 15mm and 20mm. I know Turner and ECS sell them and I am sure there are other sources as well. I think there was another company that used to make them too ARD maybe?

Here is what the H&R adapters look like


Turner
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-86...-5-series.aspx

ECS
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E39-530...eels/Adapters/

Adapters that convert e39 wheels (74.1 mm) to rest of the world bmw spec (72.56mm) also may exist.

Third Option
There is also the option of swapping in e60 wheel bearings/hubs and that will give you the more standard 72.56mm hubs. But in the case of e46 wheels you would still need to run spacers to get them to fit. I don't know much about this and whether it is a good idea or not, but someone did do it and write it up.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...hlight=e60+hub


Here are some references:
- BMW wheel specs (1) & BMW & replica wheel styles (1) (2) (3) (4) & the difference between cast vs forged wheels (1) & where to find the wheel markings for proper match mounting (1) & how to choose the right size wheel spacers (1) (2)

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See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need

Last edited by bluebee; 09-25-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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  #33  
Old 02-17-2013, 07:16 AM
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For the crosslinked record, this related thread was opened today:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > How do you PROPERLY mount tires and balance wheels (can it possibly be done as a dIy)

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  #34  
Old 03-29-2013, 09:30 AM
4thBMW 4thBMW is offline
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Road force balancing

road force balancing simulated the force of the road on the tire while spinning. if you have wide rims and thin sidewalls, get road-force balanced. The BMW dealer doing an alignment (for the 5th attempt) said it couldn't guarantee no shake on wheels with out it ( for $400!!!!). I had just purchased new rubber and balanced...was in for alignment. Told them to wait, I'd be right over. Drove the car to see if alignment and steering was strait. OK after 6th attempt. Took the car to one of 5 road force balances withing 5 miles of the BMW dealer and for $15/ wheel did RF balancing. They wanted to charge me 400 dollars. Wheel balancing! After not noticing my car was a S227A for the alignment settings. Anyway, everyone has those machines now with all the crazy wide wheels and skinny rubber.
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  #35  
Old 07-12-2013, 05:00 PM
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For the record, this post in another thread is apropos:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Heh heh ... I just helped get MIDAS booted off the TireRack web site for the "recommended installer" program.

At least all the MIDAS shops owned by the large corporation that owned the one I had my tires shipped to are no longer visible when I search the San Jose zip codes on Tire Rack.

Since MIDAS has been booted from TireRack yesterday, I had to call the guy in charge of the recommended-installer program to send me the pricing that was on the Tirerack web site up until yesterday.

Here's what they were telling TireRack they would charge us:
55 series tire = $11.25 mounting + $1.99 valve + $2 disposal + tax

But, they lied. A friend of mine had gone to them just two weeks ago, and I knew that they charged a higher price than they reported on TireRack. So, I, on purpose, told TireRack to send my tires to them and, guess what, they tried to charge me that higher price. Heh heh. They probably shouldn't have!

When I reported it, TireRack said it was the third complaint for them, and their policy is to remove a company if three people complain about them not honoring their pricing agreement with Tire Rack.

So, they booted (at least this) MIDAS from the Recommended Installer program (and all the ones under that large corporation).
Caveat emptor

Anyway, here are the prices. Now I have to find another installer (no big deal) because I also complained that they:
a) Overcharge their customers daily (millions of dollars in overcharges given the number of tires they install)
a) Do not torque the lug bolts properly (they use 100 foot pounds for ALL cars!)
b) Do not pressurize the tires properly (they use the same psi for both axles!)
c) Do not mount the heavy spot properly (they don't follow the dots nor spin the wheels prior to mounting as per this Tire Rack article:
- Match Mounting to Enhance Tire & Wheel Uniformity

See also:
- Where to find the wheel markings on our BMW E39 wheels for proper match mounting (1)

I also wrote to Consumer Reports (customerservice at cr.consumer.org) saying a study of how many tire installers improperly install tires would make a nice exposť!



One question:
Q: While it's clearly WRONG for a tire professional to make all the mistakes above, what safety implications do you think result from millions upon millions of tires and wheels mounted improperly so?
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Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need
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  #36  
Old 07-14-2013, 07:53 PM
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I'm confused - but I have an appointment tomorrow for my tires to be mounted - and - I'm confused where the dots should line up - so I reread the PDF in the first post -
and I read the Tire Rack PDF blow - and - well - I'm still confused!
- http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=17
- http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

According to the PDF in the first post of this thread, wheel manufacturers are required to mark the "low spot" and tire manufacturers are required to mark the "high spot" (usually as a red dot).

On the back of the stock 16" BMW (BBS) rims, is this nick painted white, which I presume is the marked "low spot" (which, you may notice, is not at the valve stem):


Yet, on the tires, I see both a red dot and a yellow dot!

  • RED = high point of radial runout on the tire
  • YELLOW = light point (with respect to weight balance) on the tire
So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the tire:
  1. Wheel valve stem
  2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot
  3. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot)
  4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point)
OK. Now what?
Q1: What two spots (of those four) should I tell the tire installer to line up?
Q2: Should they remove all these weights first?

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File Type: pdf tire_rack_match_mounting.pdf (141.1 KB, 37 views)
File Type: pdf match_mounting.pdf (365.3 KB, 19 views)
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Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need

Last edited by bluebee; 07-14-2013 at 08:27 PM.
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  #37  
Old 07-14-2013, 10:52 PM
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I think I just found a much clearer answer on the Yokohama web site:
http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires_10...atch_mounting/

This seems to be the algorithm from the Yokohama TSB on match mounting:
- http://www.yokohamatire.com/assets/d...ting_12803.pdf

UNIFORMITY METHOD:
Q: Does the wheel have a match-mounting notch?
A: If yes, then match that wheel notch to the red dot on the tire.

WEIGHT METHOD:
Q: Does the wheel have a match-mounting notch?
A: If no, then match the wheel stem hole to the yellow dot on the tire.

So, I'll try to remember that once I'm at the tire shop, with the simple mnemonic of the Gangham Style singer "Mr. Psy" (i.e., metal-to-red, pneumatic stem-to-yellow).

However, the answer to the yes/no question above depends a LOT on whether that white notch in the back of my stock BBS 16 inch wheels actually does correspond to the wheel assembly's point of minimum radial run-out.


EDIT: See also this Bridgestone article: "Why do the dots go where they do?"
- http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...0ask%20doc.pdf

In that PDF, they go further to refine the Mr Psy algorithm, by saying that red has preference over yellow (just like at a stoplight):
Specifically:
a) If there is a match mounting mark on the wheel, match to the red dot.
b) If there is no match mounting mark on the wheel, match the valve stem to the red dot.
c) Only if there is no match mounting mark on the wheel, and, if there is no red dot, then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.

EDIT: I'm perusing these RMA (Rubber Manufacturers Association) articles for hints on Match Mounting procedures:
http://www.rma.org/tire_care_info/index.cfm
See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting" in the attached "care and service manual" document from:
http://www.rma.org/tire_care_info/ti...nual/index.cfm


This is the Bridgestone algorithm:
1. If you have steel wheels with match mounting marks, and red dots on the tires, mount the match mounting mark to the red dot.
2. If you have steel wheels without match mounting marks, and red dots on the tires, mount the valve stem to the red dot.
3. If you have steel wheels without match mounting dots, and no red dots on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.
4. However, if you have aluminum wheels, and red dots on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the red dot.
5. Likewise, if you have aluminum wheels, and no red dots on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.


EDIT: Notice the Bridgestone explaination says that only steel wheels have match mounting marks!
If that's the case, why does my aluminum wheel have a notch painted wihte on the back?
__________________
Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need

Last edited by bluebee; 07-15-2013 at 12:25 AM.
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  #38  
Old 07-15-2013, 06:03 AM
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Here's another description, different still, yet which again implies aluminum wheels don't have low-spot dimples:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...ue2/Doctor.asp
800-847-3272

UNIFORMITY METHOD:
1. If the wheel is steel, and if it has a low-point dimple, match it to the tire high spot red dot:

2. If the wheel is steel, but has no low-point dimple, match the red dot to the valve stem. Note that they assume there is no dimple on aluminum wheels:


WEIGHT METHOD:
3. They say to match the wheel valve stem to the yellow dot, whether or not the wheel is aluminum or steel (and they don't mention the low-point dimple):


So, the two bits of confusion which remain are the two separate questions:
Q1: Does all this only apply to new wheels?
Q2: What do we do if our aluminum wheels actually do have a match-mounting notch?
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__________________
Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need

Last edited by bluebee; 07-15-2013 at 06:23 AM.
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  #39  
Old 07-15-2013, 01:36 PM
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Sloppiness, incompetence, and fraud at the recommended tire shop!
I filed a formal complaint to Tire Rack.
I had to stop them halfway through, after 2.5 hours of my car on the lift, and now I have four unbalanced (but new) tires, and a bare spare rim with no valve stem.

It was miserable, by any
0. They committed fraud (by claiming a higher Tire Rack price)
1. They pried off the BBS BMW hubcaps with a screwdriver
2. They dropped 1/3 of the the lug bolts on the ground
3. The did not bother to match mount the red to the valve stem
4. They had to ask ME what the torque should be (when I told them to remove the wheels and re-torque them)
5. They had to deflate and then re-inflate the tires (when I told them they didn't even look at the tire placard in the door jamb)
6. They left the old wheel weights on the tire (until I told them to remove them)
7. And, worst of all, I think they damaged two of my wheels

It got so bad, that I told them three times that I wanted my car back, and only after the third time, did they stop. Then they wanted to charge me the full (fraudulent) price, and I insisted they only charge me for the work they did.

In the end, they charged me $8 to mount the four tires with four new stems, no balance, and, they didn't put back the spare tire on the wheel rim nor put the Schrader valve back into the spare tire stem.

And, then they hand me a pretty envelope, with the receipt, where it says "Trust the Midas touch."

Pictures later ... as I only had a crummy cell phone ... and it's hard to get the photos off of it.
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