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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #76  
Old 09-26-2012, 08:50 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
Audi MotherShip sells more cars globally, beacuse they have a bunch of divisions Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and of course Volkswagen.

As for US sales, since I do not think MackMan cares what the price is in China (correct me if i am wrong here) BMW and MB are WAY ahead of Audi in sales. Actually in the US they sell 2X the number of vehicles as Audi. In the US, they are trying to be like BMW and Mercedes.

Take a look - data via the WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
We are not talking about VW, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT or Škoda. We are talking about Audi only, also, we are talking about global sales, not US sales. Here are the numbers as of Aug 2012, Audi and BMW is neck and neck:

Audi increased its sales by 13 percent to 961,000 units, while BMW rose only by 7.8 percent to 963,110 cars.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11209114...m-sales-ending
  #77  
Old 09-26-2012, 09:36 AM
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The question was about price and the US market. No One said anything about global sales and I am not sure why anyone buy a car in country A, cares what is sells for in country B or how many they sell in that country.

My point was specific -

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
my 2 cents.. Because Audi is trying to become BMW. The only way to pull people away is to offer what seems like the exact same car for less money. Although when you get to a negotiation standpoint I find that the selling price on each of these cars come in line with each other since BMW sells well below MSRP.
I guess I should have been clearer and said Audi is trying to be BMW is the US market since it sells half as many cars in the US market. and barely outsells BMW worldwide.

BTW - for the record there is nothing wrong with striding to be better than you are - similar to BMW striding Mercedes, etc.
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  #78  
Old 09-26-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
We are not talking about VW, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT or Škoda. We are talking about Audi only, also, we are talking about global sales, not US sales. Here are the numbers as of Aug 2012, Audi and BMW is neck and neck:

Audi increased its sales by 13 percent to 961,000 units, while BMW rose only by 7.8 percent to 963,110 cars.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11209114...m-sales-ending
Ok I think you are getting your numbers from a bad source. Here are 2011 numbers from IHS, and while they are only until November I think we can assume they did not sell 500,000 units in the month of December. BMW way outsells Audi worldwide and in the US.

"Audi to a year-to-date (YTD) sales total of 1,193,100 units for the first 11 months of the year, an 18.8% y/y increase on last year's 1,003,905 units."

"BMW has also enjoyed robust sales rises in November and for the YTD. In Group terms it sold 138,878 units during November, which …which propelled the firm's overall sales for the period to 1,510,862 units."

In the US 272,873 units. In Europe 775,834 units. These two regions alone almost match the worldwide Audi numbers for 2011.

http://www.ihs.com/products/global-i...?id=1065931941

Let me know if you can find a morre credible source to refute - I would be interested to see it.
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  #79  
Old 09-26-2012, 10:01 AM
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similar to BMW striding Mercedes, etc.
what an insult!
  #80  
Old 09-26-2012, 10:04 AM
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what an insult!
Just referring to price tags and how they overcharge :-) Not in quality I am a BMW over Mercedes - I drive a manual
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  #81  
Old 09-26-2012, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
Ok I think you are getting your numbers from a bad source. Here are 2011 numbers from IHS, and while they are only until November I think we can assume they did not sell 500,000 units in the month of December. BMW way outsells Audi worldwide and in the US.

"Audi to a year-to-date (YTD) sales total of 1,193,100 units for the first 11 months of the year, an 18.8% y/y increase on last year's 1,003,905 units."

"BMW has also enjoyed robust sales rises in November and for the YTD. In Group terms it sold 138,878 units during November, which …which propelled the firm's overall sales for the period to 1,510,862 units."

In the US 272,873 units. In Europe 775,834 units. These two regions alone almost match the worldwide Audi numbers for 2011.

http://www.ihs.com/products/global-i...?id=1065931941

Let me know if you can find a morre credible source to refute - I would be interested to see it.
I guess math was not your favorite subject in school
  #82  
Old 09-26-2012, 11:34 AM
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I guess math was not your favorite subject in school
That's it? nothing that points to what mean? Are you inferring their is an error? Point it out.
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  #83  
Old 09-26-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
Ok I think you are getting your numbers from a bad source. Here are 2011 numbers from IHS, and while they are only until November I think we can assume they did not sell 500,000 units in the month of December. BMW way outsells Audi worldwide and in the US.

"Audi to a year-to-date (YTD) sales total of 1,193,100 units for the first 11 months of the year, an 18.8% y/y increase on last year's 1,003,905 units."

"BMW has also enjoyed robust sales rises in November and for the YTD. In Group terms it sold 138,878 units during November, which …which propelled the firm's overall sales for the period to 1,510,862 units."

In the US 272,873 units. In Europe 775,834 units. These two regions alone almost match the worldwide Audi numbers for 2011.

http://www.ihs.com/products/global-i...?id=1065931941

Let me know if you can find a morre credible source to refute - I would be interested to see it.
making it simpler for X men,

2011 Jan - Nov

Audi - 1,193,100
BMW - 1,510,862
  #84  
Old 09-26-2012, 12:45 PM
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^ stop quoting #s from last year.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...to-2-110-autos

Quote:
Audi AG (NSU) trimmed Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (BMW)'s lead in 2012 luxury-car sales to just 2,110 vehicles in August, threatening BMW's seven-year hold on the top position in premium auto deliveries.
and

Quote:


The Volkswagen AG (VOW) luxury brand boosted eight-month sales 13 percent to 961,000 vehicles, compared with BMW's 7.8 percent increase to 963,110 autos, according to the two companies' monthly sales reports. BMW, the world's largest-maker of luxury cars, led by 40,513 vehicles through August of last year.
This is 2012 and Audi has a chance of beating BMW worldwide.
  #85  
Old 09-26-2012, 12:46 PM
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making it simpler for X men,

2011 Jan - Nov

Audi - 1,193,100
BMW - 1,510,862

Thanks, I guess the commas threw him off...
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  #86  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
That's it? nothing that points to what mean? Are you inferring their is an error? Point it out.
If you need me to explain, then you wouldnt understand my answer anyways. The bottom line is global sales for Audi, Mercedes and BMW for 2012 is very close, is that simple enough for you? And yes there is a whole another world outside of the US
  #87  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
^ stop quoting #s from last year.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...to-2-110-autos



and



This is 2012 and Audi has a chance of beating BMW worldwide.
Oh man, they are selling upgraded VW FWD cars in big numbers.
Not big numbers on really nice Audis, they are in a minority.
The AWD sixes and fives you all are talking about in the states, are only a very small amount of sold cars and the 7 or 8 series do not add up any real numbers in world sales.
The big numbers are in A4 FWD, cars, luxurious VW Passats, if I may make it clear.
Not comparable at all with the real cars that are sold by the Bavarians.

Please stop these apples and pears comparisons, or is it oranges you are mingling up overthere?
  #88  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
Oh man, they are selling upgraded VW FWD cars in big numbers.
Not big numbers on really nice Audis, they are in a minority.
The AWD sixes and fives you all are talking about in the states, are only a very small amount of sold cars and the 7 or 8 series do not add up any real numbers in world sales.
The big numbers are in A4 FWD, cars, luxurious VW Passats, if I may make it clear.
Not comparable at all with the real cars that are sold by the Bavarians.

Please stop these apples and pears comparisons, or is it oranges you are mingling up overthere?
So which Audi is the Passat?

You act like every BMW that they sell worldwide is luxurious. They sell tons of cloth, manual AC, 6mt, stripper models in Europe. Don't come in here and try to prove that they sell tons of "premium" models, when they really don't. BMW is also going to have a FWD model as their entry level soon.
  #89  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Audi already outsells MB worldwide and sells almost as much as BMW. They aren't trying to be anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
^ stop quoting #s from last year.

This is 2012 and Audi has a chance of beating BMW worldwide.
To be fair they are exactly trying to be that - they are trying to be #1, which they are currently not in the world (although may change be end of the year) ...This is still a long way off in the US.

Either way, I still hold to my statement - Audi is trying to be like BMW the number 1 in the German Lux sales per units!
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Last edited by miamiboyca; 09-26-2012 at 01:18 PM.
  #90  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
Oh man, they are selling upgraded VW FWD cars in big numbers.
Not big numbers on really nice Audis, they are in a minority.
The AWD sixes and fives you all are talking about in the states, are only a very small amount of sold cars and the 7 or 8 series do not add up any real numbers in world sales.
The big numbers are in A4 FWD, cars, luxurious VW Passats, if I may make it clear.
Not comparable at all with the real cars that are sold by the Bavarians.

Please stop these apples and pears comparisons, or is it oranges you are mingling up overthere?
This is where the action is and where it likely will be for a very long time taken the current and potential growth. And it's not A4s and Passats, it's A6L.
( In here you can also find the explanation to why we now get such a pure luxury, isolated, huge non sporty five compared to earlier iterations. The target has shifted east where the owner enjoys his funfer from the back seat )

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-throttle.html

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2012 at 01:25 PM.
  #91  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:18 PM
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Either way, I still hold to my statement - Audi is trying to be like BMW in the US and become the number 2 in the German Lux sales per units in the US!
No, they're not. They have made it clear that in the US, they are not going for pure volume like MB and BMW are. Supply is limited and demand is high. They simply can't sell as many as Lexus, Acura, Mercedes, and BMW because they don't have North American factories to support them. Lexus makes the RX here. Acura makes most models here. Mercedes makes the ML and GL here, and BMW makes the X3, X5, X6 here. And these are their most popular models. Until the Mexican factory is built (years from now), Audi will never match them in US numbers, but they will continue to beat MB worldwide though.

Audi has the right formula, not BMW. BMW brings too many cars here and populates lots. And look what happens with that. Poor resale value, cheap lease deals, and tons of subsidizing to get them off lots.

Try to get a discount on a Q5 or Q7 these days. And try the same thing on the X5.

Last edited by AutoUnion; 09-26-2012 at 01:20 PM.
  #92  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
If you need me to explain, then you wouldnt understand my answer anyways.
Right.... yeah ... sure... sounds like you realized your math was off... but nice try.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
The bottom line is global sales for Audi, Mercedes and BMW for 2012 is very close, is that simple enough for you? And yes there is a whole another world outside of the US
That is true, since the biggest reason they are coming up on BMW numbers is because of sales in China.

And to be clear I have stated several times I was talking about the US car market.
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  #93  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:25 PM
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No, they're not. They have made it clear that in the US, they are not going for pure volume like MB and BMW are.
volume - those are really sour grapes.
  #94  
Old 09-26-2012, 02:06 PM
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Audi has the right formula, not BMW. BMW brings too many cars here and populates lots. And look what happens with that. Poor resale value, cheap lease deals, and tons of subsidizing to get them off lots.
I'm feeling like these sorts of comments are rather anecdotal. So I therefore feel the desire to respond anecdotally.

Where I live (in Utah, where we only have two BMW dealerships), the Audi lot is stocked full of current MY cars. Whereas the BMW lots have only a handful of current MY vehicles. I would say the two BMW lots combined have fewer cars on them than the single Audi lot closest to my house.

The cheap lease deals and tons of subsidizing to which people on these boards keep referring generally only apply to the MY cut-over time-period. The BMW dealership nearest to me had perhaps only a few 2012 5'ers left they sold off on the cheap (one of my friends picked up one of them, a 535i xDrive with M sport and the usual on-the-lot bells and whistles for $900/month on a 3 year lease).

The 2013's can be had on-order for maybe 1K over invoice. I don't regard that as "tons of subsidizing."

Regarding what Audi has or hasn't said or who they are or aren't gunning for:

"It is not about overtaking BMW tomorrow or the day after, but to seize and secure the top position,” -- CEO (of Audi) Rupert Stadler

This was said in context of him declaring that by 2020, Audi will be the world's leading luxury brand. Previously, he had said by 2015.

-Corey
  #95  
Old 09-26-2012, 02:19 PM
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That is true, since the biggest reason they are coming up on BMW numbers is because of sales in China.

And to be clear I have stated several times I was talking about the US car market.
Audi's sales in China, Europe and US have been setting record pace. BMW have factories in China as well, but for some reason, they are not doing as good there.
At first you said the only reason Audi sell so well globally is because the sales number included VW, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT and Skoda. When that was proven wrong, you change the subject to US sales numbers only. US sales number is only a portion of the big picture. Just look at Lexus, they are selling great here in the US, globally, they are way behind. Also, did you know that globally, the A6 out sell the 5 series according to Edmunds. The 3 series is what keeps BMW on top by a slim margin.

http://www.autospies.com/news/2012-A...howdown-65797/

Last edited by The X Men; 09-26-2012 at 02:23 PM.
  #96  
Old 09-26-2012, 02:57 PM
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"BMW have factories in China as well, but for some reason, they are not doing as good there."
In some parts of the world BMW has a stigma of being perceived as showy, China is such a location. Audi is seen as a more understated classier executive choice. The same is true in Northern Europe where I'm originally from, Audi is often the choice of people who are looking to be seen as classy. It has little to nothing to do with how classy the cars are but the image of the brand and the stereotypes of the people buying the cars.

Here's a joke I heard this summer while in Europe. Q:"What is the difference between a snail and a BMW?" A: "The snail has it's slime on the outside". You get the picture...

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2012 at 03:06 PM.
  #97  
Old 09-26-2012, 03:22 PM
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[QUOTE=The X Men;7098311]Audi's sales in China, Europe and US have been setting record pace. BMW have factories in China as well, but for some reason, they are not doing as good there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
At first you said the only reason Audi sell so well globally is because the sales number included VW, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT and Skoda. When that was proven wrong,
Statement is fact

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
you change the subject to US sales numbers only.
Again statement is fact

Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
US sales number is only a portion of the big picture. Just look at Lexus, they are selling great here in the US, globally, they are way behind. Also, did you know that globally, the A6 out sell the 5 series according to Edmunds. The 3 series is what keeps BMW on top by a slim margin.
Duh... of course US is only a small portion. And to be clear its the US and Europe (two very profitable markets) and who who cares about Lexus? Stick to the point of Audi and BMW

BMW has never been out sold by Audi, not globally and not in the US. It MAY happen this year, but to date it has not happened. And for the record in my opinion Audi is trying to become BMW - they want to be #1, but they are NOT - at least not yet.

Point to one thing I said was incorrect? One thing?
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  #98  
Old 09-26-2012, 03:24 PM
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^ You said that Audi sales #s include all those other brands, and that is WRONG. It includes only Audi cars. So that "fact' that you said is complete BS.

What proof do you have that Audi #s include those brands? They are only counted when you look at the entire VAG numbers, not an individual brand like Audi.
  #99  
Old 09-26-2012, 04:03 PM
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The VW group delivered almost 6 million cars globally in the first 8 month of 2012, that is 6 times the number of cars BMW sold in the same time period, 963,110 units. Audi in the same time period sold 961,000 units and Mercedes sold 841,567 units.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-august-sales/

Last edited by The X Men; 09-26-2012 at 04:12 PM.
  #100  
Old 09-26-2012, 04:25 PM
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Mercedes has ended up being squeezed by BMW and Audi. I think they need to go back to their core values. Each car must be absolutely solid, like carved from one block. There should not be anything that doesn't feel like it will last forever and the cars need to be super quite and comfortable but still firm. The design should be one of timeless class and luxury. Currently they seem a bit lost with half-@ss attempts trying to be modern and sporty to entice buyers like myself who still wouldn't think of buying one. It's a strong brand with proud history and many great inventions, lets hope they get back on track.

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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