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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 09-28-2012, 11:53 AM
elistan elistan is offline
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Some background - I'm an S2000 owner. I like fun, engaging cars. But it was time to get a sedan with AT. So I went searching (and it needed to be something fun to drive.)

I drove a E90 328i last year and thought it, well, sucked. It was used, which may have had something to do with the impression, and I don't recall which options it had. Anyway it felt very cheap - a sea of interior plastic in an off-putting layout. And painfully slow, both the engine and the transmission. Nothing special in the steering department. I concluded the BMW hype was pure hype. At that point, the Audi A4 and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart were my top choices depending on what I wanted to prioritze, but neither really caught my fancy.

Then I drove an F30 328i earlier this year - wow, what an improvement. Much more acceleration, the ZF 8AT is a huge improvement, and the interior looks great. Nicely weighted steering, well controlled handling...

So what'd I do? Well, my 2013 328i is currently on a boat on the way over from Germany...

Regarding the ATS - never drove the CTS because it's too big, too expensive, and never liked the interior (sat in a few at auto shows.) I might have checked out an ATS if they had been available at the time.

Edit - just wanted to add that this isn't intended to belittle anybody who perfers the E90 (heck, I prefer the AP1 S2000 when the majority of folk say the AP2 is superior. ) But I felt like adding in my opinion as somebody new to the BMW world, without any prior prefernces. Sorry I don't have much about the ATS to add.

Last edited by elistan; 09-28-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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  #52  
Old 09-28-2012, 11:54 AM
clippernation clippernation is offline
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Wow, this is a far cry from the civility and sense of the diesel forum. I'm all for discussions on disagreements, but this is madness. Let's try to get back on topic shall we? Anyone ever take a spin in both the f30 and ATS? Impressions? I thought long and hard about getting a ATS before I got a great deal on my F30.
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  #53  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:11 PM
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justinnum1 justinnum1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elistan View Post
Some background - I'm an S2000 owner. I like fun, engaging cars. But it was time to get a sedan with AT. So I went searching (and it needed to be something fun to drive.)

I drove a E90 328i last year and thought it, well, sucked. It was used, which may have had something to do with the impression, and I don't recall which options it had. Anyway it felt very cheap - a sea of interior plastic in an off-putting layout. And painfully slow, both the engine and the transmission. Nothing special in the steering department. I concluded the BMW hype was pure hype. At that point, the Audi A4 and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart were my top choices depending on what I wanted to prioritze, but neither really caught my fancy.

Then I drove an F30 328i earlier this year - wow, what an improvement. Much more acceleration, the ZF 8AT is a huge improvement, and the interior looks great. Nicely weighted steering, well controlled handling...

So what'd I do? Well, my 2013 328i is currently on a boat on the way over from Germany...

Regarding the ATS - never drove the CTS because it's too big, too expensive, and never liked the interior (sat in a few at auto shows.) I might have checked out an ATS if they had been available at the time.
No. The e90 base 328 does suck. The N52 seriously lacks power.
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  #54  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:19 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
This game has become so predictable.

If you don't like the latest BMW being discussed, you are one or more of the following:

A. Can't afford the latest/greatest.
B. Just unhappy because your car got replace by a "better" and newer model.
C. Paid shill for Audi, Lexus, Porsche, etc.
D. Just a plain idiot and can't appreciate all the "improvements" for lack of knowledge and/or good taste.

I can appreciate both sides of arguments, and we are here because we are supposedly BMW, and more importantly, car "enthusiasts". Exchanging our ideas, opinions and POVs is what the forum is all about.

But, I see a bunch of bullies who want nothing but like-minded people hi-fiving and padding each other's back for singing praises of the latest BMW.
Some people are not used to others disagreeing with them, they conclude it must be something wrong with those others if they disagree.

When they realize that wasn't helping, they go to support groups. When you are used to going to support groups and pad each other's back, then you come back to the real world, get even more pissed.

Ok, the last part was joking.

Last edited by dtc100; 09-28-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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  #55  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:32 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
No. The e90 base 328 does suck. The N52 seriously lacks power.
I guess it depends on your perspective. 0-60 in about 6.0 seconds is not slow. I have a base E90 328i and have never, ever thought it lacked power. It's also plenty sporty. I just wish the seat base had more bolstering and it had a fatter steering wheel. I have no other complaints.
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  #56  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:49 PM
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justinnum1 justinnum1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I guess it depends on your perspective. 0-60 in about 6.0 seconds is not slow. I have a base E90 328i and have never, ever thought it lacked power. It's also plenty sporty. I just wish the seat base had more bolstering and it had a fatter steering wheel. I have no other complaints.
I too have a E90 328, personally i thinks it lacks a low end power, the engine is smooth i just wish it had more low end power.
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  #57  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:49 PM
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justinnum1 justinnum1 is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Some people are not used to others disagreeing with them, they conclude it must be something wrong with those others if they disagree.

When they realize that wasn't helping, they go to support groups. When you are used to going to support groups and pad each other's back, then you come back to the real world, get even more pissed.

Ok, the last part was joking.
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  #58  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:55 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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I admit it, I am not blown away by the 6mt in my F30. It's a bit rubbery, a bit vague, not very hard to trip it up on a FAST 2-3 shift. I would not go as far to as calling it BAD. I prefer the shifting in my E36/7, but it's very deliberate, very mechanical, might not be everyone's cup of tea.

Fact is, If my F30 order were to have gotten any more F-ed up I would have waited and driven an ATS 2.0T 6mt. Fact is, it is the most worthy 3 series competitor I have seen.
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  #59  
Old 09-28-2012, 12:59 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
I guess it depends on your perspective. 0-60 in about 6.0 seconds is not slow. I have a base E90 328i and have never, ever thought it lacked power. It's also plenty sporty. I just wish the seat base had more bolstering and it had a fatter steering wheel. I have no other complaints.
I am sorry, I had an E92 N52 loaner for a couple of days. The lack of tq compared to the N20 is drastic. The sound of the engine though, that is where the N52 has it over the N20.

The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
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  #60  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:05 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I am sorry, I had an E92 N52 loaner for a couple of days. The lack of tq compared to the N20 is drastic. The sound of the engine though, that is where the N52 has it over the N20.

The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
The E90 N52 as well as the 1 series N52 are very similar in terms of specs to the E36 M3, at least on paper. The N20 is actually quicker and makes more power to the wheels.
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  #61  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:08 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I am sorry, I had an E92 N52 loaner for a couple of days. The lack of tq compared to the N20 is drastic. The sound of the engine though, that is where the N52 has it over the N20.

The N20 performs and dynos very much like an E36 M3. To get that level of performance and near hybrid like fuel economy is an impressive thing. Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
Of course it does. It has significantly less HP and torque than the N20. I was not comparing the N52 to the N20. Also, I'm sure your E92 loaner had an AT and that transmission does that engine no favors. It's a much different story with the MT.
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  #62  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Now attack the lack of sound with a proper exhaust and maybe an intake and all is well.
You can't make an N20 sound like an inline six any more than you can make a Mitsubishi Evo sound like a BMW. With an intake an exhaust, it'll just sound like a turbo four with an intake and exhaust.
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  #63  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:32 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I too have a E90 328, personally i thinks it lacks a low end power, the engine is smooth i just wish it had more low end power.
It is N/A, high revving engine.

In any case, the comparison here is F30 vs. ATS.

Last edited by dtc100; 09-28-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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  #64  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:34 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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You can't make an N20 sound like an inline six any more than you can make a Mitsubishi Evo sound like a BMW. With an intake an exhaust, it'll just sound like a turbo four with an intake and exhaust.
I think a nice exhaust will compensate for the lack of good sound of the N20.

Of course a 6 should sound better than a 4, an 8 should sound better than a 6. I am curious to see how the ATS 3.6 sounds. Those who drove it all liked the 3.6's exhaust sound, there were little comment about the engine sound.

Last edited by dtc100; 09-28-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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  #65  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:38 PM
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enigma enigma is offline
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Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
You can't make an N20 sound like an inline six any more than you can make a Mitsubishi Evo sound like a BMW. With an intake an exhaust, it'll just sound like a turbo four with an intake and exhaust.
Sure you can! That's what the speakers are for, like in the F10 M5!

OK, I am just kidding
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  #66  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:47 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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The E90 N52 as well as the 1 series N52 are very similar in terms of specs to the E36 M3, at least on paper. The N20 is actually quicker and makes more power to the wheels.
NO.

I have Dyno'd both stock S52 and stock N20's now. I am not talking about paper. The S52 is a bit underrated, the N20 is even more so. I have not seen N52s make S52 numbers at dyno days I have been to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Of course it does. It has significantly less HP and torque than the N20. I was not comparing the N52 to the N20. Also, I'm sure your E92 loaner had an AT and that transmission does that engine no favors. It's a much different story with the MT.
I have freinds with 6mts and friends who are BMW techs. They drove my car and have had plenty of seat time in N52 manuals. Auto's are pokier of course.

But fact is there is about a full second 0-60 advantage between manual N52 and manual F30. That is huge, about twice the advantage of N20 vs N55.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
You can't make an N20 sound like an inline six any more than you can make a Mitsubishi Evo sound like a BMW. With an intake an exhaust, it'll just sound like a turbo four with an intake and exhaust.
You can't. For me, if I want that inline 6 sound(plus blower whine), I go to the other side of the garage. The other part of me has always loved small displacement FI. I had a stage 2 VW 2.0 TSI CC with a stick before getting the F30. I love the idea of a slightly more aggressive exhaust note without going overboard on this car. You can make a small 4 cylinder sound good without going overboard or sounding juvenile. I had a Borla on my CC, it sounded excellent.
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  #67  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:55 PM
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3ismagic# 3ismagic# is offline
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I personally do not care for the styling of the caddy inside or out. But styling is very subjective and no doubt many others prefer the looks of the caddy over the F30.

The performance/mechanicals/dynamic aspects of the ATS are anywhere from 95-105% of those of the F30. In other words, the Caddy either just comes up a little short or has just edged the BMW out. On the numbers they are almost indistinguishable. On the subjective aspects of performance some think the Bimmer is better others the Caddy.

At the end of the day the F30 is a really great car. The ATS is also a really great car. Which flavor of great car do you prefer? YMMV.

GM is going to sell a sh!t ton of these cars. Write it down. Anyone who doesn't think this is a worthy competitor needs to have their head examined. There may or may not be a new sheriff in town, but if BMW doesn't continue to step up their game there most assuredly will be soon enough.
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  #68  
Old 09-28-2012, 01:56 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
NO.

I have Dyno'd both stock S52 and stock N20's now. I am not talking about paper. The S52 is a bit underrated, the N20 is even more so. I have not seen N52s make S52 numbers at dyno days I have been to.



I have freinds with 6mts and friends who are BMW techs. They drove my car and have had plenty of seat time in N52 manuals. Auto's are pokier of course.

But fact is there is about a full second 0-60 advantage between manual N52 and manual F30. That is huge, about twice the advantage of N20 vs N55.



You can't. For me, if I want that inline 6 sound(plus blower whine), I go to the other side of the garage. The other part of me has always loved small displacement FI. I had a stage 2 VW 2.0 TSI CC with a stick before getting the F30. I love the idea of a slightly more aggressive exhaust note without going overboard on this car. You can make a small 4 cylinder sound good without going overboard or sounding juvenile. I had a Borla on my CC, it sounded excellent.
Different car magazines will post different results but in Car and Driver the AT F30 328i did 0-60 in 5.4 and the MT N52 328i 5.9 seconds. That's significant but your numbers are way off.

I don't know why you are on this tangent. I'm not at all claiming the N52 is as fast as the N20. Frankly I don't give a damn and am happy with the speed of my car.
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  #69  
Old 09-28-2012, 02:17 PM
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windsor027 windsor027 is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Have you driven others cars lately? Have you driven an ATS? If not, you ave less credibility trashing one who had done so, even if his comment may sound off.

Besides, he was not the only one who disliked the manual in the ATS. And he is also not the only one who disliked manual in a BMW either.
In the past year I have driven an A4, S4, Golf R, G37S, F30 328i and 335i, and as stated I just turned in a C350. No I have not driven the ATS when I made my decision it was not available and honestly I just don't like the looks of it so most likely I would not have bothered.

Preference wise
335i
328i
S4
G37S
Golf R
A4

I would not consider any Mercedes because they don't offer a MT this model year. If price was an issue hands down the winner would have been the G37S Sedan, is that good so If they improve the ride and come up with something similar to the F30 DHP this is the car that would challenge the F30 IMO.

Now does that make me an authority to criticize the caddy? no, and I never cut the car down. All I said when this journalist called the BMW MT average or something like it, that raised a HUGE red flag for me. Its a great box, you just need to know how to drive it correctly and obviously this guy didn't. I have had plenty of BMW manuals to know what they are, feel like and how they interact with the car and driver.
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Last edited by windsor027; 09-28-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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  #70  
Old 09-28-2012, 02:47 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post
I personally do not care for the styling of the caddy inside or out. But styling is very subjective and no doubt many others prefer the looks of the caddy over the F30.

The performance/mechanicals/dynamic aspects of the ATS are anywhere from 95-105% of those of the F30. In other words, the Caddy either just comes up a little short or has just edged the BMW out. On the numbers they are almost indistinguishable. On the subjective aspects of performance some think the Bimmer is better others the Caddy.

At the end of the day the F30 is a really great car. The ATS is also a really great car. Which flavor of great car do you prefer? YMMV.

GM is going to sell a sh!t ton of these cars. Write it down. Anyone who doesn't think this is a worthy competitor needs to have their head examined. There may or may not be a new sheriff in town, but if BMW doesn't continue to step up their game there most assuredly will be soon enough.
Agree 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Different car magazines will post different results but in Car and Driver the AT F30 328i did 0-60 in 5.4 and the MT N52 328i 5.9 seconds. That's significant but your numbers are way off.

I don't know why you are on this tangent. I'm not at all claiming the N52 is as fast as the N20. Frankly I don't give a damn and am happy with the speed of my car.
Hmm, I had never seen an N52 crack 6 seconds. My bad!

I don't know what tangent you speak of. I am one of the few speaking level headed-ly round these parts.
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  #71  
Old 09-28-2012, 04:20 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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C&D's comparison is in:



The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.

The field is narrowing fast. Someone pick up a 3.6 auto soon.

Last edited by dtc100; 09-28-2012 at 04:25 PM.
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  #72  
Old 09-28-2012, 05:19 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
C&D's comparison is in:

The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.

The field is narrowing fast. Someone pick up a 3.6 auto soon.
You don't care about the ATS. You have an agenda to bend BMW's ear so they build you an E46. You admitted this earlier today.

Stop pretending, stop bumping threads, take your secret mission to the E46 or E90 forums where they'll show you some sympathy. All you're doing here is aggravating new F30 owners. We would like it to stop.

BJ
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  #73  
Old 09-28-2012, 05:31 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You don't care about the ATS. You have an agenda to bend BMW's ear so they build you an E46. You admitted this earlier today.

Stop pretending, stop bumping threads, take your secret mission to the E46 or E90 forums where they'll show you some sympathy. All you're doing here is aggravating new F30 owners. We would like it to stop.

BJ
I am not alone, the C&D guy said even though the F30 328i is a better car than the ATS 2.0T, he liked the fun driving part of the ATS and believe BMW should put more fun back into the 3.

You might like to make fun of old drivers, but I have to say you are sounding more and more like a grandpa yourself.
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  #74  
Old 09-28-2012, 05:57 PM
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Chris90 Chris90 is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
C&D's comparison is in:



The 2:0T ATS is probably out for me. I didn't like the sound of N20 already, but the ATS 2.0T seemed much worse.

The field is narrowing fast. Someone pick up a 3.6 auto soon.
They said the Caddy is more fun to drive. Has Hell frozen over? WTF, BMW, do we have to spend $70k to have a fun BMW?
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:16 PM
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windsor027 windsor027 is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I am not alone, the C&D guy said even though the F30 328i is a better car than the ATS 2.0T, he liked the fun driving part of the ATS and believe BMW should put more fun back into the 3.

You might like to make fun of old drivers, but I have to say you are sounding more and more like a grandpa yourself.
He should have tested and F30 with the adaptive suspension. he would have had a lot of fun.
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