Is the new 3 series is losing US market share?

Originally Posted by The X Men

MSRP is a bit different than what one can actually buy the car for. My wife was shopping for a car about 8 months ago, we test both the E90 and the F30. Similarly equipped, the F30 cost about $8000 more when all is said and done.

I am not a statistician, but if one look at the current trend, it sure looks like the 3 series is losing market share and will continue to do so unless some changes are made by BMW or the competition. Almost all newly redesign cars enjoy a upward trend in sales numbers, some times as high as a few hundres percent compare in a year ago. I think price certianly have something to do with the sales down trend, price is always a factor.

You're comparing a brand new model to an outgoing model with heavy manufacturer incentive support.

You're perfectly entitled to think what you'd like about the sales numbers. I doubt BMW cares one iota what anyone here speculates about their sales numbers. This thread has gone way too long and I've contributed to that way too much. I'm out.

There are more factors that many are not considering. The competition, not just Audi or Mercedes but Toyota, Honda, Nissan,etc have better cars that are just as capable and have standard equipment that BMW considers options. options such as heated seats, ALARM, and Bluetooth streaming. I understand this is not a budget car but many co workers prefer to buy cheap car who have those luxury options vice BMWs. the other brands are offering a better value and equal driving experience.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You're comparing a brand new model to an outgoing model with heavy manufacturer incentive support.

A reasonable response, ultimately it is still BMW against MB, Audi or Infiniti..., not F30 vs. E90.

You're perfectly entitled to think what you'd like about the sales numbers. I doubt BMW cares one iota what anyone here speculates about their sales numbers. This thread has gone way too long and I've contributed to that way too much. I'm out.

Pointless.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Not enough F30 inventory. Check.

Not enough XDrive models. Check.

Too much pre-existing E90 inventory. Check.

A flood of used E90 inventory. Check.

Virtually no F30 advertising. Check.

E92 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

E93 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

E91 looking tired and stale, new model coming soon. Check.

A bunch of E9X owners looking for any reason to slam our cars and "send a message to BMW" invades the F30 forum. Check.

BJ

Over-zealous and over-defensive F30 owners? Check.

Potential F30 buyers asking questions and participating in debates are squashed? Check.

Anyone questioning BMW or the F30 receives a witch-hunt treatment? Check.

All I am hearing here

Originally Posted by vs123

In my opinion, the biggest issue with the 3-series is lack of prestige/status. In the past, the luxury car buyer would buy the 3-series for some sort "status" effect in addition to sport.

Now, the 3-series is too common to get much prestige and is associated as more of a fresh grad car. But with the F30, its no longer priced as a "fresh grad" car.

The typical 3 Series buyer is a 50 year old woman leasing a car she found on the lot with no sports options on it simply because it's a BMW and it makes her look socially acceptable at the nail salon.

The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I think the last "Fresh Grad" BMW may have been the 2002.

At this point in time the "enthusiast" market has aged. The Baby Boomers who were buying BMW 1600s and 2002s, and Camaro Z28s and Boss 302 Mustangs 40 years ago may be looking for something a bit more luxurious and comfortable but for the most part someone who owned a Z28 or a Boss 302 in 1969 is not interested in the 2012 version of a 1962 Coupe de Ville or Lincoln Continental. I attend a lot of automobile related events including track days, concours, car club meets, etc. and for the most part it is not a younger crowd.

That's it right there. The 3 Series rode the crest of the baby boomer era, more people in their 30's and 40's and 50's than ever before in human history these past two decades, but the boom ended in 1964, and you've got more boomers in their 70's and 60's than ever before and they need a car that's less sporty and more comfortable.

The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.

Not directed at you CA, but until then, everyone needs to live with the realization that what used to be the 3 Series isn't anymore and it's not going to change. No grass-roots discussion forum whining is going to change that. We can all talk about what the car is and what the car isn't, but to proclaim that the F30 is a bad sportscar isn't fair as it's not intended to be a sportscar anymore.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The typical 3 Series buyer is a 50 year old woman leasing a car she found on the lot with no sports options on it simply because it's a BMW and it makes her look socially acceptable at the nail salon.

The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.

That's it right there. The 3 Series rode the crest of the baby boomer era, more people in their 30's and 40's and 50's than ever before in human history these past two decades, but the boom ended in 1964, and you've got more boomers in their 70's and 60's than ever before and they need a car that's less sporty and more comfortable.

The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.

BJ

The oldest boomers have not yet hit 70 but some are getting close.

CA

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The typical 3 Series buyer is a 50 year old woman leasing a car she found on the lot with no sports options on it simply because it's a BMW and it makes her look socially acceptable at the nail salon.

The "fresh grad" car? Perhaps for the wealthiest 1% of America. Even the dirt-cheap $399 a month as-seen-on-TV special could qualify, but with the typical American family making $47,000 a year in income and making a $1,100 mortgage payment, they're not going to blow that kind of coin on a small people-mover.



That's it right there. The 3 Series rode the crest of the baby boomer era, more people in their 30's and 40's and 50's than ever before in human history these past two decades, but the boom ended in 1964, and you've got more boomers in their 70's and 60's than ever before and they need a car that's less sporty and more comfortable.

The whole argument is sort of silly. Once BMW releases a 1 Series Sedan, they'll have the opening pricepoint covered for a 4-door car. The 1 Sedan will be the size of the E46, the 3 Sedan the size of the E39, all problems solved, you wind up with two 3 Series Sedan sizes where there used to be just one.

Not directed at you CA, but until then, everyone needs to live with the realization that what used to be the 3 Series isn't anymore and it's not going to change. No grass-roots discussion forum whining is going to change that. We can all talk about what the car is and what the car isn't, but to proclaim that the F30 is a bad sportscar isn't fair as it's not intended to be a sportscar anymore.

BJ

I don't really agree because in a sense sportscars aren't intended to be sportscars anymore either, at least in terms of the classic definition of a sports car. The days of a car that was driven to work Monday through Friday and taken to the race track (and won races) on Saturday are long gone.

Look at the cars that Ferrari, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche or any of the companies (that are still around) and were the traditional makers of sports cars are making today. All of these cars have become much more refined, and much more comfortable. These cars have climate control systems, navigation systems, power windows and seats, power steering and brakes, etc.

Times change. I don't think that drivers who are interested in performance cars are looking for "softer" cars. They just realize that they no longer have to make the compromises in comfort and day to day drivability that they had to make in the past.








CA

I think as long as BMW continues to call the 3 series the ultimate driving machine, it is fair to argue whether the new 3 has lost some driving dynamics or not, or whether the competitions have matched or passed it in driving dynamics.

As soon as BMW starts to call the 3 series the ultimate luxury machine, BJ you can petition to have these discussions banned.

Originally Posted by enigma

Over-zealous and over-defensive F30 owners? Check.

Potential F30 buyers asking questions and participating in debates are squashed? Check.

Anyone questioning BMW or the F30 receives a witch-hunt treatment? Check.

BMW didn't make enough product? Check
BMW blew it on the "lines"? Check
BMW lack of advertising for F30? Check
Conversation in Muniich = "We're intoducing the most important model for our company.
Let's short the product, do little advertising, screw up the options. You know those American enthusiasts, they'll still buy it!" Munich blew it along with BMW USA.

The life cycle on E92 and e93 is insignicant to the sales rate. The real issue is a brand new model can't beat the end of life cycle numbers and that is something BMW should be very very concerned about.

anyone have the numbers how the e90 did when it was first introduced and compared to the last year of the e46?

Originally Posted by dtc100

I think as long as BMW continues to call the 3 series the ultimate driving machine, it is fair to argue whether the new 3 has lost some driving dynamics or not, or whether the competitions have matched or passed it in driving dynamics.

As soon as BMW starts to call the 3 series the ultimate luxury machine, BJ you can petition to have these discussions banned.

To the average 3 Series owner "driving" is defined as "getting back to forth from work, taking the kids to school, taking a weekend trip". To the average 3 Series owner "driving" is not defined as "drive aggressively on public streets to get a 10 second thrill on a windy back road".

I don't want to have these discussions censored, ultimately that's what we're here for. It's a discussion forum, not a fanclub. Just seems that every week another thread is started as one thing disguised as another. "Cadillac ATS" and "This Month's Sales Results" become code for yet another "The F30 Is Too Big, Make An E46, You Suck BMW" thread. E90 and E46 owners attack the F30, F30 owners defend the F30, everyone gets upset, not really necessary to replay that 52 times a year as it's not going to change anything.

Go to the E90 forum and create a thread called "The F30 Sucks, So What's Our Next Move After Our E90's Have To Go?" and all we F30 owners will race over there and contribute so you get some adult feedback amidst the high school rhetoric. That work for you?

BJ

Originally Posted by justinnum1

anyone have the numbers how the e90 did when it was first introduced and compared to the last year of the e46?

While looking for the answer to your question, I came across this thread from May 2006 with E46 owners giving their first impressions on the E90. Might as well have been a thread from yesterday on the E90 vs. F30. An example:

Originally Posted by Colin 06-02-2006, 05:04 AM

Hi, all,

It's been some time since I last posted, but the ongoing E90 better/worse than E46 debate really captures my fancy.

Drawbacks of the new models are, however, too many for it to make it an unqualified success. Please bear with me if this sounds repetitious either because earlier posters have already brought them up or because I've posted these opinions before:

a) Dash is plain ugly. This could be subjective, but I still do not warm to the plank straight, minimalist look of the new design w/o i-Drive, while the twin cowl version with i-Drive is shades worse.

b) Unergonomic details - stop/start button with cartridge key, electronic turn signals, obscured cruise control, fiddly i-Drive, rear seat that has less headroom and outer edges that are so uncomfortably hard that the added width and leg/knee room are wasted, boot access still as bad as ever, particularly so if the optional computer tray is ordered.

c) Not driver/passenger focused - no temperature gauge but a pointmess vacuum gauge, no dipstick, poor ergonomics (as above), flimsy cup holders, courtesy light goes out the minute you slip the cartridge key into its slot so you cannot belt up and do any adjustments while there is light.

d) Deterioration of cabin plastic quality - door trims feel especially hard after the E46.

e) Styling not to everyone's taste - to me the E90 has presence only because it is UGLY!

f) The car feels limp and flaccid in tight, urban situations, unlike the E46, which was more easily manoeuvred and did not feel at all out of its depth on backroad blasts.

Compared to the E90, the E46 may be more cramped in the back, less refined on the move and not as sharp in handling, but for me (and I guess many on this forum), a much better balance of qualities and attributes.

I suspect that the E90 sells more on its image and brand desirability than on pure merit/talent, even though it is hardly the class dunce. Some would say this was already so of the E46, but at least the old model was not so compromised and diluted to appeal to the masses. It appealed to those who put driving pleasure ahead of all other considerations and could deliver without adopting useless gimmicks.

Colin

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=149364

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

While looking for the answer to your question, I came across this thread from May 2006 with E46 owners giving their first impressions on the E90. Might as well have been a thread from yesterday on the E90 vs. F30. An example:

BJ

What ever happened to Colin? I wonder if he is now driving a Cadillac?

Never mind, I see he listed his car as an '02 330d T M Sport Auto. I bet he's still driving it.

BJ your fatal mistake is, you think these threads are attack of E90 drivers against F30, when in fact for the most part, they are discussions about F30 against its competitors, not E90.

You hold on to this straw dog that for the most part does not exist. The recent sales reports do not have the E90 in them, the comparison tests by various mags also did not look at E90.

You need to understand BMW drivers are not two year olds, just because you don't like the discussions, does not mean people will start to discuss the F30 in the E90 forums.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

anyone have the numbers how the e90 did when it was first introduced and compared to the last year of the e46?

Okay, got ahold of the BMW investor reports from back around the time of the E90 transition, below is the relevant information.

Summarized, BMW had a staggered launch of the E90 where it was available in Europe prior to the US by a period of 3 months and they used to break out Sedan vs. other styles which they don't do anymore, so the data is a bit dicey to interpret. Big picture, the E90 saw dips in sales vs. the E46 for the first 6-12 months of its life. The Coupes and Convertibles particularly were hit hard once the Sedan launched. For the first three periods BMW reported the E90 on which are somewhat congruent to the first two periods BMW reported the F30 on, the E90 dipped 3 Series sales (19%) and (11%) then (3%) below E46 levels.

2005 Quarterly Report (June 2005) E90 is 1 month old (worldwide):

The new model of the BMW 3 Series Sedan
has been particularly well received on the market.
Since market introduction in March 2005 (Europe),
April 2005 (Asia) and May 2005 (USA), 69,385 units
had been sold to customers by the end of June –
more than a third of the total unit sales of the
BMW 3 Series during the period. Including sales of
the predecessor model, 127,951 units of the BMW 3
Series Sedan were sold during the first half of 2005,
6.1% more than in the corresponding period last
year. As expected, the sales volume of the BMW 3
Series has fallen in connection with the model
change; 195,693 units were sold during the first
half of 2005, (19.1)% fewer than in the corresponding
period last year.
The new BMW 3 Series Touring model will be
introduced onto the markets from September 2005
onwards. 27,465 units (–33.4%) of the present
model were sold during the first half of 2005.
In addition, 17,642 (– 45.5%) BMW 3 Series
Coupé and 17,900 (–28.7%) BMW 3 Series Convertible
were delivered to customers between January
and June 2005.

2005 Quarterly Report (September 2005) E90 is 5 months old:

The sales volume of the BMW 3 Series declined
overall as a result of the model change. 311,324 units
were sold in the period from January to September
2005 (–10.9 %). The first new 3 Series model is
the BMW 3 Series Sedan, which was introduced
onto the market in March 2005; 148,818 units had
already been delivered to customers by the end
of September 2005. For the nine-month period,
the sales volume of the BMW 3 Series Sedan and
its predecessor model totalled 215,032 units, an
increase of 20.4% compared to the previous year.
Favourable customer acceptance of the new BMW
3 Series Sedan is also reflected in the sales volume
figures for this model in the third quarter 2005:
87,078 units were delivered to customers, 50.0%
more than in the same quarter last year. The new
BMW 3 SeriesTouring came onto the market in September
2005. The total sales volume of the BMW
3 Series Touring in the first three quarters of 2005
was 39,329 units (–33.7%). In the same period,
25,425 units of the BMW 3 Series Coupé (–45.3%)
and 25,987 units of the BMW 3 Series Convertible
(–22.3%) were sold

2005 Annual Report (Dec 2005) E90 is 8 months old:

Despite the BMW 3 Series Sedan model change,
the BMW 3 Series remains the world's best-selling
model series in the segment for premium middle
class cars; 434,342 units of the BMW 3 Series were
delivered to customers in 2005 (– 3.4%). The new
BMW 3 Series Sedan is the best-selling car of the
BMW Group: having sold 229,932 units since its market
launch in March 2005, it accounted for 17.3%
of the total sales volume of the BMW Group in 2005.

2006 First Quarter Report (March 2006) E90 is 10 months old:

122,691 BMW 3 Series vehicles were delivered
to customers worldwide in the period from January
to March 2006, 54.3% more than in the previous
year. This strong growth was attributable to particularly
strong demand for the BMW 3 Series Sedan
and for the BMW 3 Series Touring following the
model change. Both models were introduced to the
markets during the course of 2005 and are now
available to customers worldwide. 84,739 BMW 3
Series Sedans (+88.2%) and 26,096 BMW 3 Series
Touring cars (+72.2%) were sold during the first
quarter 2006, of which 954 and 943 respectively
were predecessor models. During the same period,
5,785 BMW 3 Series Coupés (–33.4%) and 5,951
BMW 3 Series Convertibles (–19.4%) were delivered
to customers.

2006 Second Quarter Report (June 2006) E90 is 13 months old:

In April, international automotive journalists
voted the BMW 3 Series as the "World Car of the
Year". The popularity of the 3 Series is also reflected
in the sales volume achieved: 254,338 units were
sold during the six-month period, giving a particularly
strong growth rate of 30.0%. More than
400,000 units of the BMW 3 Series Sedan have been
delivered to customers since the model change in
spring 2005. The sales volume for the first half of
2006 was 175,141 units, 36.9% more than one year
earlier. During the same period, 53,728 BMW 3
Series Touring (introduced in September 2005) were
handed over to customers, representing a 95.6%
increase over the previous year. The sales volume
figures for the BMW 3 Series Coupé and of the
BMW 3 Series Convertible were lower than in the
previous year as a result of life-cycle factors. 11,401
units of the BMW 3 Series Coupé were sold, (35.4)%
fewer than in the same period last year. The BMW 3
Series Coupé model change will take place in September
2006. With 13,838 units sold, the sales volume
of the BMW 3 Series Convertible was (22.7)%
lower than one year earlier

=========================================

2012 Quarterly Report (March 2012) F30 is 1 month old:

The BMW 3 Series also performed well,
with the market launch of the new Sedan in February
(+ 13.6 %) already having a positive impact. In total,
91,189 units of the BMW 3 Series were handed over to
customers during the quarter under report (+ 3.9 %).

2012 Quarterly Report (June 2012) F30 is 4 months old:

Sales of the BMW 3 Series,
at 193,989 units, were slightly up on the previous year
(+ 0.6 %). The four-wheel-drive system (xDrive) for the
Sedan as well as the launches of the new Touring and extended
wheelbase version for China will also revitalise
demand in the second half of the year.

Source:

http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/nav/index....sbericht.shtml

BJ

^^ Do you mean to say the BMW sky is not, in fact, falling? Can it be?

Originally Posted by tturedraider

^^ Do you mean to say the BMW sky is not, in fact, falling? Can it be?

Big picture, it certainly looks like history is repeating itself.

BJ

The above sources indicated in 2005 during the E90 launch, except the first month or two (when the E46 and E90 were sold together), the 3 series was up by 20% to 54%.

In the same period this year during the F30 launch, other than the first few months (when E90 and F30 were sold together) up by 14%, it flattened out in June, and has been down in the recent months.

Can we draw any conclusions? Not really, we don't know if 2004 was a particularly good year or bad year, we also know 2011 was a very good year for the E90 in its final MY sales.

We do know the competition is much more fierce now than 2005.

Originally Posted by The X Men

I agree, E92 and E93 are at the end of their design cycle, but so are the competitions. I also did not include the sales numbers for the Audi A5, which is technically a A4 coupe. The A5 's sales numbers went up 25.6% last month compare to Sep 2011 and year to date compare to last year went up 10.9%. What is this shortage that everyone is talking about, there are plenty of F30 in dealer lots here in the Northeast. My guess is that F30 sales might be better in a year or two, but thats not due to stock or full line, it will be due to pricing structure. Unfortunately, both the A4 and the C class are due for redesign for the MY 2014 and the 3 series will have stiffer competition.

The A4 just had an LCI for 2013. The C also saw some minor updates. Are you sure they will be redesigned for 2014?

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Big picture, it certainly looks like history is repeating itself.

BJ

BJ, good points ! Especially from the E46 owner , and the sales figures from 2005 and 2006. Our first BMW was a new 2006 loaded 330i which we did a 3 year lease in March of 2006. The reason we came over to BMW was the Susan G Komen test Drives BMW did in the Summer of 2005. We had 2003 Acura TLs which was coming up for its 3 year lease in March. The Test drive compared the new 330i to the Audi and the Lexus. We were sold , and the rest is History. Of course , we then leased the 2009 335i and now we will be getting the new F30 335i Sport Line Soon in a PCD set up . We loved each of our BMWs , and can not wait to jump into our new One Soon. As the 3 year leases come due over the next few years , this model will do as well as the previous ones. Like you, our third one in Six years.

ng

Originally Posted by dtc100

The above sources indicated in 2005 during the E90 launch, except the first month or two (when the E46 and E90 were sold together), the 3 series was up by 20% to 54%.

In the same period this year during the F30 launch, other than the first few months (when E90 and F30 were sold together) up by 14%, it flattened out in June, and has been down in the recent months.

Can we draw any conclusions? Not really, we don't know if 2004 was a particularly good year or bad year, we also know 2011 was a very good year for the E90 in its final MY sales.

We do know the competition is much more fierce now than 2005.

How is the competition more fierce now than then? That's a total fabrication. The 3 series, A4 and C series were positioned just as they were back then. In fact in 2002 when I leased an A4 I really wanted a 3 series but the Audi lease at that time worked out better for me. Now we have the ATS but it's effect on 3 series sales has not yet been felt.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

How is the competition more fierce now than then? That's a total fabrication. The 3 series, A4 and C series were positioned just as they were back then. In fact in 2002 when I leased an A4 I really wanted a 3 series but the Audi lease at that time worked out better for me. Now we have the ATS but it's effect on 3 series sales has not yet been felt.

How many A4s, Cs and Gs did they sell compared to 3 back in 2002 or 2005?

If I am in the market today, there is no way I can justify the F30 328i lease over the G37 lease to the SO, when comparable G37 is easily $150/mo. less. In fact last year, after trying for a few months, I could not convince the SO to accept an X3 over an GLK, because the payment was about $150/mo. higher.

For an extra $150, the car better have something very special more than the badge within this segment.

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

The A4 just had an LCI for 2013. The C also saw some minor updates. Are you sure they will be redesigned for 2014?

Yes for both. The competition are more active in refreshing their models within the design cycles.

Originally Posted by dtc100

How many A4s, Cs and Gs did they sell compared to 3 back in 2002 or 2005?

If I am in the market today, there is no way I can justify the F30 328i lease over the G37 lease to the SO, when comparable G37 is easily $150/mo. less. In fact last year, after trying for a few months, I could not convince the SO to accept an X3 over an GLK, because the payment was about $150/mo. higher.

For an extra $150, the car better have something very special more than the badge in this segment.

I pay $160 a month to the guy who cuts my lawn. No way anyone is putting themselves in a step-down semi-luxury car like an Infiniti for a measly $150.

The proper way to look at this is that a $500 a month lease is the expectation for a luxury car in this segment. Any brand offering something similar for $350 isn't offering a true luxury car. Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, not in the same league as a BMW, silly to keep bringing them up.

BJ