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  #1  
Old 10-04-2012, 08:24 AM
FluTricolor FluTricolor is offline
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Leasing '13 328i, selling trade-in

Hello everyone from rainy Florida. Finally pulling the trigger this weekend and getting a 2013 328i sedan 30K/36 mo lease. We haven't worked on pricing negotiations yet - my patient sales advisor has spent all of his time so far searching for the right options/color/price combo. After reading through this forum the past few days (and months ago before) I'm far better prepared than being blind. BMWConfig helped with the invoice price and payment scenarios, however, this is my first lease, so I am still nervous about the "sale" meeting.

We are trading my fiancee's car, 2011 Mazda 3, 8,000 miles, bought as a purchase. She owes $3,500 on the loan, and the dealer already offered to take the trade and cut a check for the value. We haven't discussed trade values yet. This dealer is not owned/tied with any mainstream dealers (Mazda, Toyota, GM, etc.) so I am afraid they may not offer anything close to the $13,000 NADA says it's worth. I don't expect that honestly, but $8,000 won't do it. Any thoughts on this? Work with the dealer or drive down to Carmax? I know it's hard to judge without having numbers already, but I'm curious if anyone has experiences or advice to share. On a related note, if we go through the dealer, given the loan on the trade, will they apply the trade value straight away, and cut a check the same day, or will we have to wait for any of this?

As I've said, we haven't worked out any lease numbers, but the sticky on "New To Leasing" is committed to memory. The new 328i will be in my name only, though I understand she can have her name on the paperwork as well, with the higher-credit person used for financing rates. What can I expect for a MF being a new BMW customer with an average credit score of 805?

The plan is to do max MSD, little or no down payment (CCR) as possible. Any (hopefully) extra difference between funds required for purchase and her trade are going to our wedding fund.

I haven't bought a car in six years, and that was from a Chevrolet dealer my family knows better than they know me...(I used to work there, everything sold to us was well under invoice). My fiancee had a yo-yo scam pulled on her when she bought the Mazda last year (her first purchase and I was traveling on business, should never have happened). This BMW dealer has been great so far, but we're still cautious given our history of the first two sentences. We're both looking forward to finally having a good car, but before rushing into the deal, any opinions you have would be appreciated. Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2012, 08:27 AM
thegandalf thegandalf is offline
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I think you should go to a carmax and get their appraisal no matter what. You can then work with the dealer to get them to do better or at least match that. If they won't you can go back to carmax and sell them the car.
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2012, 05:45 PM
rs328 rs328 is offline
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I'm also trading in my 2010 truck and leasing 328. The (only) BMW dealer in town looked over the truck the day I put down the deposit on the car and offered within $100 of what KBB quoted for it.

We don't have a Carmax anywhere near here, but my attempt at selling the truck outright on Craigslist & cars.com certainly wasn't worth the time and aggravation... and that's considering the estimated $4k difference between selling & trading.
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:35 PM
FluTricolor FluTricolor is offline
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Thanks guys. Tried to make it to Carmax today but ran out of time. Will try again tomorrow morning. I think the dealer will offer a fair price, though one can never be sure. Living in South Florida is also unique, as, like some other areas of the country, many customers are not concerned with any "deal"...a few thousand here or there is pocket change. When the dealer cannot keep X6s or 7s on the lot due to high sales, it makes me cautious.

rs328 - When you note placing a deposit, did that mean you ordered your car? I'm curious how it works with a trade and ordering and that one-two month delay between deposit and delivery. A trade value for future trade based on X amount of maximum miles and same condition? Next year when we trade my truck (scheduling for May or June delivery) we may not have the luxury of trading (giving) the truck straight away and being a one car household for two months... I'm still using the truck for some remodeling projects here at home, and we're making a vacation of ED (possible honeymoon...kill two birds with one stone, if you will) so that's another thing on my mind.
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:52 PM
rs328 rs328 is offline
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Yes, I did order the car and honestly, I'm curious to see how that works out myself. I can understand adjusting for mileage, but don't expect it to change much. It's about 3 weeks shy of 3 yrs old and has less than 25k miles on it.
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2012, 08:46 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluTricolor View Post
haven't worked on pricing negotiations yet - my patient sales advisor has spent all of his time so far searching for the right options/color/price combo. s!
You do realize that you have given them HUGE leverage .... THEY now have THE car you want!

You can do all the research in the world, but it doesn't help if they know you will be saying yes eventually...

Get a number from carmax

Also find the car you want elsewhere, you need another option

My2 cents
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  #7  
Old 10-05-2012, 05:31 AM
FluTricolor FluTricolor is offline
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ard - I kept thinking that when we were at the salesman's desk, searching through their database of all cars in Florida or in transit from Germany, narrowing down options. They sent us home with a few cut sheets of 328i's and X1's either in stock, in transit, or in production. We never said a definitive "yes, this is the one" about any while at the dealership.

I didn't see the point of discussing pricing if we were unable to find a vehicle that fits our checklist. They do know I am not keen on ordering a specific, spec'd car, but will do it if necessary to get what we want. Nothing against ordering (we intend on doing such next year), but right now it would not work well with our schedule. Of course we did our own research and viewed inventory of other local BMW dealers, but nothing matched close enough to consider (looking beyond the wrong color and other basic items). Even this one isn't perfect, but the small details which we do not prefer can be overlooked. Using that to our advantage during negotiations, naturally.

Going to Carmax today. One more piece of paper to add to the folder, but likely time well spent.
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  #8  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:17 PM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluTricolor View Post
ard - I kept thinking that when we were at the salesman's desk, searching through their database of all cars in Florida or in transit from Germany, narrowing down options. They sent us home with a few cut sheets of 328i's and X1's either in stock, in transit, or in production. We never said a definitive "yes, this is the one" about any while at the dealership.

I didn't see the point of discussing pricing if we were unable to find a vehicle that fits our checklist. They do know I am not keen on ordering a specific, spec'd car, but will do it if necessary to get what we want. Nothing against ordering (we intend on doing such next year), but right now it would not work well with our schedule. Of course we did our own research and viewed inventory of other local BMW dealers, but nothing matched close enough to consider (looking beyond the wrong color and other basic items). Even this one isn't perfect, but the small details which we do not prefer can be overlooked. Using that to our advantage during negotiations, naturally.

Going to Carmax today. One more piece of paper to add to the folder, but likely time well spent.

Then why did you give them a deposit? I know the area quite well (not the name) Negotiate the price even if you have to order it. Do it up front. if they're not willing to quote you a price, then just tell them they are not serious about turning your business and go with another dealer. Just because you're in South Florida doesn't mean you have to buy from a dealer in South Florida

Also contact the SE bimmerfest sponsor, and get him to quote the car. Don't do anything until you know exactly what they wants to sell you the car for and you have done your research on whether or not it's a good deal.

By the way, your deposit is fully refundable. Don't let them tell you otherwise.
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2012, 06:19 AM
FluTricolor FluTricolor is offline
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We actually did not place a deposit on any car. Went to the dealer yesterday and worked on pricing. Still not in agreement, but we left off yesterday at $1000 over invoice, $0 down/CCR, plus their insistent $599 "doc fees" and $799 "prep fees". They wouldn't let me leave with a deal sheet because we haven't agreed on final numbers yet. I'm told the $599 doc fee is non-negotiable and is charged to every person at every dealer of every manufacturer, at least in South Florida. Not sure how much I believe that, but I've never bought anything down here.

Went to Carmax and got an estimate...BMW dealer was $500 less and they won't go up. Since the trade has a lien, carmax will not issue a check for purchase until they have a clear title, 3-4 weeks after the sale. In the meantime, assuming we waited for this check before leasing new, we wouldn't have a car, so that wouldn't work out so well. The trade isn't critical to the deal...the remaining amount after loan payoff will offset the cash due on delivery (basically MSD, 1st payment, taxes/fees). We have the cash to cover this, but prefer to use the trade allowance for simplicity. Not to mention, unless I am wrong (very likely), if we sell the car to dealer A, then get a new car at dealer B, we would have to pay for new tags instead of just transferring the tags, no?

I will take your suggestion and contact the SE Bimmerfest sponsor (Adrian in Atlanta?). To that end, my credit was already pulled and approved for this lease...would this still be valid if going to another dealer, or would they run their own paperwork through BMWFS?
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  #10  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:43 AM
thegandalf thegandalf is offline
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Definitely give Adrian a call. There's a good chance you can get a better deal. Worse (best) case scenario you will find that you already have a great one. He'll give it to you straight.
I think a different dealer will have to pull your credit again though... if this happen within 2 weeks of the preclude pull you should be ok.
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  #11  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:46 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Originally Posted by thegandalf View Post
Definitely give Adrian a call. There's a good chance you can get a better deal. Worse (best) case scenario you will find that you already have a great one. He'll give it to you straight.
I think a different dealer will have to pull your credit again though... if this happen within 2 weeks of the preclude pull you should be ok.
Actually they don't have to pull your credit again, just share the confirmation number from BMWFS. They can pull the info. Hopfeully you did it online an have that number.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:49 AM
thegandalf thegandalf is offline
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Are you sure? I thought the approval was linked to a dealership. But again I might be wrong So far your advice has been spot on.
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:54 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluTricolor View Post
We actually did not place a deposit on any car. Went to the dealer yesterday and worked on pricing. Still not in agreement, but we left off yesterday at $1000 over invoice, $0 down/CCR, plus their insistent $599 "doc fees" and $799 "prep fees". They wouldn't let me leave with a deal sheet because we haven't agreed on final numbers yet. I'm told the $599 doc fee is non-negotiable and is charged to every person at every dealer of every manufacturer, at least in South Florida.
Those fees are high, and 1k over seems high. As an example I paid 400 doc fees and no prep fees. That is a SF scam to make sure they make their money. I found out when I went through a credit union service one time and they told me that those fees were bogus.

Contact Adrian, looks like you might be saving some real cash. Don't forget to report back so we all know how you fared.
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:56 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Are you sure? I thought the approval was linked to a dealership. But again I might be wrong So far your advice has been spot on.
Yep, got approved at 1 and when research with the provided them the number and thy was sufficient. I am not sure what the info has since I did my business with the original dealer.

And thanks ;-)
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Last edited by miamiboyca; 10-06-2012 at 09:57 AM.
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2012, 11:08 AM
FluTricolor FluTricolor is offline
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Threatened dealer with walking and going elsewhere, where I was reminded the $599 doc fee applies everywhere. They looked confused when I said buying out-of-state is always an option. At least he's been honest that the $599 is a markup and profit for the dealer, but since it's applied to everyone they can't change it, to be fair. He also looked confused when I asked if MSRP/selling price is the same for everyone...you know, in order to keep it fair... I can't complain about their honesty, which has been upfront, but it's hard to swallow when you're told "this fee is high, and most of it is our markup, which is profit, but we're not supposed to tell you that. We won't reduce that fee, but here's another $200 off the sales price." I think it is fair for the dealer to make a fair profit, but not gouge their clients with bogus fees. We all need to make a living, but fortunately I haven't heard the "you're stealing from my family" line...yet.

I've also had several past auto purchase loans through my credit union - we will never use a bank because a CU is the only way to go for service, rates, and pretty much everything else. They told me when doing anything concerning hard credit pulls, whether it's an auto loan, mortgage, insurance, etc., it's better to have multiple credit inquiries within 30 days opposed to having only one. Points are deducted either way, but it's 5-10 for "rate shopping" and 10-20 for only one single hard pull.

And no, I didn't go through the BMW website for credit approval. One of my many mistakes in this ordeal. Thanks for all the advice so far! I'll keep you posted.
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  #16  
Old 10-06-2012, 11:16 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Well, actually the cb will look at it same when it comes to dings. The idea being to affect the score the same wether it's one, or multiple looks within a certain period.

Get your price first from Adrian, then go through bmwfs. We await your results to be about 1k better and that is not including the tax savings.
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2012, 01:18 PM
German Expat German Expat is offline
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So your 'deal' is 1000$ over invoice with 2 fees totaling another 1400$ of profit ? Sounds like 2400$ over invoice deal to me.
Make sure you also buy the paint and leather protection

Ok enough joking, ask a sponsor here for their best deal, I am willing to accept a fair deal o my last deal accepted 1000$ over invoice from the local dealer rather then searching around for a 500$ deal but 2400$ over would be too rich for me.

Also try to deal with their 'internet' sales manager and I tend to negotiate mainly over the phone or email.

Also you did not talk leasing terms yet, I bet you they also try to give you the full 4 points + 200$ for that.
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  #18  
Old 10-07-2012, 06:27 AM
FluTricolor FluTricolor is offline
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We're now down to $450 over invoice, 599 doc fees, no prep fees, and the state fees for tag/title/etc (at actual cost per DMV website). Trade offer still 500 less than carmax, but has the convenience of transferring tags (saving $$) if trade done with the dealer. .00135 MF (I believe, getting a breakdown sheet showing this today), 62% residual, $18 down payment (to bring payments down, dropping security deposits to next-lowest $50 tier), 7 MSD, no paint and leather protection, no extended service protections, no underbody coating, but including a full tank of gas ...the finance manager's "great deals" all to be declined. Sound appropriate? This is for a 36mo/30,000mi lease. Credit approved at super elite tier, for what it's worth.

German Expat - You have me curious on the "full 4 points + 200$ for that." line. I haven't leased a vehicle before...just following the advice and stickies on the Bimmerfest forums. I'm afraid to hear the backlash on the $18 down payment...but honestly, we know to usually put nothing down. This dealer has no problem with the zero cap cost reduction, but informed me only 1 out of 100 clients do a lease with those terms.
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:51 AM
thegandalf thegandalf is offline
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You shouldn't get any bad comments about you $18 down since it reduces your MSDs by 350. Even if you total your car on the way out of the dealership, being out $18 shouldn't be a big issue
Only 1 in 100 request no cap reduction: remember most people getting a lease do so to get low monthly payments without fully understanding what a lease is.
Seems you are on a good track. Congrats!
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:12 AM
German Expat German Expat is offline
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They can mark up the money factor by 0.004, e.g. bringing it from 0.0015 to 0.0019 and they can markup the acquisition fee by 200$.

The current lease rates are on a different forum (not sure I can post the link to it here) and this is what is shown over there (15k miles so add 3% to the residual):

2013 BMW 328i Sedan
36 Month Residual 59% of MSRP .00135 Base Rate

I paid 725$ for the acquisition fee 2 years ago and the dealer can mark it up by 200$ maximum. I am not 100% sure the fee is still the same or has been raised by BMW FS.

Last edited by German Expat; 10-07-2012 at 08:35 AM.
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  #21  
Old 10-07-2012, 08:02 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Originally Posted by FluTricolor View Post
We're now down to $450 over invoice, 599 doc fees, no prep fees, and the state fees for tag/title/etc (at actual cost per DMV website). Trade offer still 500 less than carmax, but has the convenience of transferring tags (saving $$) if trade done with the dealer. .00135 MF (I believe, getting a breakdown sheet showing this today), 62% residual, $18 down payment (to bring payments down, dropping security deposits to next-lowest $50 tier), 7 MSD, no paint and leather protection, no extended service protections, no underbody coating, but including a full tank of gas ...the finance manager's "great deals" all to be declined. Sound appropriate? This is for a 36mo/30,000mi lease. Credit approved at super elite tier, for what it's worth.

German Expat - You have me curious on the "full 4 points + 200$ for that." line. I haven't leased a vehicle before...just following the advice and stickies on the Bimmerfest forums. I'm afraid to hear the backlash on the $18 down payment...but honestly, we know to usually put nothing down. This dealer has no problem with the zero cap cost reduction, but informed me only 1 out of 100 clients do a lease with those terms.
That is looking better, but that doc fee is still killing me... Lol

Couple of things...

1. Did you check with Adrian?

2. I do not believe you can transfer an owned tag to a lease vehicle. This is because in a lease vehicle you are not really the owner. BMWFS is the owner which is why they can force you to take on higher insurance coverage 100/300 as opposed to when you own 10/25.

3. Acquisition fee should be $750, although they will sometimes try and mark it up. Don't let them.

4. On the subject of trading in, the benefit of trade in is usually the tax savings. Since you are taking the cash and applying it to MSD (the dealer is buying the car) then there really is no benefit to giving it to he dealer. Other than the 4 weeks... Lol

Btw, which dealer is this... South?
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  #22  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:49 PM
FluTricolor FluTricolor is offline
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$750 acquisition fee is correct...forgot to include that earlier. They assure me plates can be transferred, because plates are tied to registration, which is the driver(s)/leasee(s). The independent insurance agent also said all is well with that...

Haven't played hardball with the exhorbinant doc fees, but when I bring that up its shot down before the sentence is finished. Still think it's a ripoff.

Miamiboyca - It's Lauderdale/Pines BMW. Have heard too many bad stories about Vista. No, haven't called Adrian yet (weekend and all). Will try tomorrow.

They are listing the destination charge separately. Is that typical? I know it cannot usually be negotiated, just curious if others see it rolled in to the negotiated price or forget about it because its a non-issue.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:35 PM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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They are listing the destination charge separately. Is that typical? I know it cannot usually be negotiated, just curious if others see it rolled in to the negotiated price or forget about it because its a non-issue.
$895- set in stone.

Registration-maybe things have changed. I was never able to keep my tags. My U tags
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:33 PM
ard ard is offline
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I've negotiated two cars for family living in Florida- both we bought from out of state dealers. Screw FLA car dealers. The fees are garbage. Everything CAN be negotiated, but they all hold the line. F-em. Weekend drive from ___________.[fill in your state]

You can always say, "Fine, the doc fee is non-negotiable- lets make it $50 over invoice then"

Anyway, good luck- you've got the numbers down.

A
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:10 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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F-em. Weekend drive from ___________.[fill in your state]

You can always say, "Fine, the doc fee is non-negotiable- lets make it $50 over invoice then"

Anyway, good luck- you've got the numbers down.

A
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Special order your car from a bimmerfest sponsor and get it delivered to PDC in Greenville, South Carolina. Spend the day driving the centers cars and learning about your BMW - then road trip it home. (maybe make a stop at Disney and say hello to the mouse)
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