Is the new 3 series is losing US market share?

Originally Posted by The X Men

captainaudio, thanks for posting those charts, a picture is worth a thousand words. If we took the Infiniti G out of the equation, it sure looks like what the 3 series lost in market share was gained by the C class and the A4.

The numbers are what they are although they are certainly open to interpretation as to whether they represent a trend or an anomaly or what they signify IMO longer term data is needed in order draw anu concludiond. I would like to see what the sales numbers look like at the end of the year.

CA

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Probably but we are not most people on this site.The G37 was a car I considered when I leased my first E90 in 2007. It wasn't what I wanted in a car then and certainly isn't now. With gas at $4.00/gallon it's hard to justify the poor mileage of the G37 to start. The CC is much more of what I want in a car and it doesn't hurt that it's gorgeous. Way better looking than the 328, A4 or C series. No it's not in the same class but it's a lot of car for the money if you stick with the 2.0. The major drawback is the FWD,

Obviously styling is a personal preference but I think the CC is ugly as sin. It has too much of the bubble/swoop styling that was popular a few years ago but which now has gone by the wayside in higher end cars.

Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.

With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Obviously styling is a personal preference but I think the CC is ugly as sin. It has too much of the bubble/swoop styling that was popular a few years ago but which now has gone by the wayside in higher end cars.

Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.

With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.

While I am not a fan of the '13 redesign(hence why I have an F30 now), my CC was the most universally appreciated sedan I have ever had. I had people ask me questions about it when it was first out and many said it was the most beautiful car for under $60k they had ever seen.

There was no real tq steer, especially compared to my Saab back ground.

My car with a $30k sticker was negotiated to $23,500, which was 4 cylinder Accord money. Leases were as low as $229 when the F30 was no lower than $359. You are talking about a 30% difference in price.

Residual value was not so bad as I purchased at $23,500 and sold for $14,500 with 53k to the first person who saw it(sold it stock, all mods shown in pics were sold separate).

Some pics of what I sold to get the F30:





Now I agree, a fully loaded CC at $40 is silly. I would never pay that.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Probably but we are not most people on this site.The G37 was a car I considered when I leased my first E90 in 2007. It wasn't what I wanted in a car then and certainly isn't now. With gas at $4.00/gallon it's hard to justify the poor mileage of the G37 to start. The CC is much more of what I want in a car and it doesn't hurt that it's gorgeous. Way better looking than the 328, A4 or C series. No it's not in the same class but it's a lot of car for the money if you stick with the 2.0. The major drawback is the FWD,

Talk to me first via PM before you go swooning too much over the CC.

If reliability had not been so bad, I would still have mine.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Based on the numbers posted by X Men it appears that for the time peiods cited the market grew slightly and the 3 Series lost sales and market share to Audi and Mercedes who both showed significant gains while Infiniti was relatively stagnant, and in fact was down slightly,

In September 2007 the E90 3er had been on the market for 18 months, current C Class was in its first month on the market and the current A4 was still a year away.

Originally Posted by Chris90

Interesting. From my 2000 test drives:

328i
Lexus IS300
A4
C

But ended up buying a '95 325i, which was even more fun when I test drove it.

don't remember driving any Nissan products.

From my recent drives at the BMW F30 Olympics driving event (street driving):

F30 -both models
Lexus IS250 - its motor and tranny are well mated and its V6 is better than Merc's or Audi's fours. I also prefer its front cabin.
C250
A4, fwd w/cvt - gawd awful.

Originally Posted by jlukja

Is it possible that, after 5 pages and 118 posts, we've finally arrived at the answer to the original question in this thread?

No.

Originally Posted by ChrisF02

My neighbor across the street who had a E46 330i, had gotten into an accident and totaled it. He came home with a brand new Infiniti G Sedan (non S).

I asked him why he jumped ship from BMW, he's the type that did all his own maintenance. He said they're too pricey for him, just thought I'd share since it seemed relevant to this thread...

I've seen the other threads about pricing historically being similar, yada yada yada. But truth be told, the car just came out, and a lot of the new ones on the lot are loaded up way above 45k+ range.

Chris

As soon as I read your first two sentences my thought was, "that was a money decision."

Originally Posted by dtc100

The above only compared 4 models, the Lexus IS was not included. The Acura TL is also in this segment. Believe it or not, Buick Verano has done very well as a new entry, moving 4k to 5k units in the last months. Although not entirely a direct competitor, I think it had easily grabbed some market share from every entry above.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I very seriously doubt the Buick Verano a FWD version of the Chevy Cruse is stealing sales from the German sport sedans? And while the TL is in the same price range it's no more a competitor to these cars than the Buick Regal. It may attract a few in this price range but it's in no way a direct competitor to the 3 series and it's ilk.

For a good number of buyers in this segment for whom fwd is not an issue the TL is a competitor, just as the fwd A4 is. There are a few buyers in this segment who find the Verano a pleasing choice. The styling is good, the price is good, fwd is not an issue for them, they like being a part of Buick's new direction and GM's recovery.

Originally Posted by dtc100

The C Class has really shown some strength in sales in the last two months, out-selling the new 3. Maybe it is not so long in the tooth and overexposed. Frankly I was surprised how strong the C has been lately.

However to say there is really nothing BMW could do?

The last two months mean nothing as the F30 was not available in XDrive and inventory was weak across the board. Of course the C would outperform the 3 in those conditions.

There was "nothing that BMW could do" in 2010/2011 with Mercedes waking up from a coma and making the C a hottie. Their LCI with that wider sport grille is much better looking than the E90, isn't quite tired yet but the F30 solves that.

It's a model transition, nothing more. When the whole 3 line is done in 2013/14 BMW will trump MB again until their redesign. It's a cycle. Been going on for decades. MB decided to get serious in the segment, finally. Took back market share that was always there for the taking.

BJ

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

My car with a $30k sticker was negotiated to $23,500, which was 4 cylinder Accord money. Leases were as low as $229 when the F30 was no lower than $359. You are talking about a 30% difference in price.

Now I agree, a fully loaded CC at $40 is silly. I would never pay that.

$30K sticker negotiated down to $23.5K? It would seem that a bunch of incentives applied and the car was sold under invoice. Typically on a $30K VW the invoice would be about $26,000 or so.

In any event, that was then and this is now. Right now I have seen VW lease "deals" of about $200 or so a month on a GOLF. Not a Jetta. Not a CC. A Golf.

And, no offense on the styling, but the CC reminds me of the Dodge Intrepid that I had as a company fleet vehicle for a few years;



As I said, styling is a personal and subjective thing but I think my new F30 spanks that kind of styling 10 ways from sunday.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

There was "nothing that BMW could do" in 2010/2011 with Mercedes waking up from a coma and making the C a hottie. Their LCI with that wider sport grille is much better looking than the E90, isn't quite tired yet but the F30 solves that.
...
BJ

The hottie C never matched the E90's great sales numbers last year. It is the F30 that fell behind the hottie C in the last two months. Maybe because the F30 does not look so hot?

I told you don't bring E90 into this discussion, else I will ask you banned

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

$30K sticker negotiated down to $23.5K? It would seem that a bunch of incentives applied and the car was sold under invoice. Typically on a $30K VW the invoice would be about $26,000 or so.

In any event, that was then and this is now. Right now I have seen VW lease "deals" of about $200 or so a month on a GOLF. Not a Jetta. Not a CC. A Golf.

And, no offense on the styling, but the CC reminds me of the Dodge Intrepid that I had as a company fleet vehicle for a few years;



As I said, styling is a personal and subjective thing but I think my new F30 spanks that kind of styling 10 ways from sunday.

Sorry, I rounded up

MSRP was something like $28,500 or so. It was during an employee pricing event.

A couple of months ago I was getting emails of 2-3 local VW dealers offering the CC for $229. VW's offer was $299, so it was being bettered at the dealer level.

Before the CC I had leaseda Jetta SE with a $21k sticker for $129 a month, again, about $100 less a month than the VW national campaign.

I see your Intrepid example and well, I am not going to whip out the E-pen as knowing better for coming from an car design back-ground, but it's a bit silly. In certain colors, if the architecture is the same(i.e, black FWD sedan) you can try and build a case that any car can look like or remind someone of another.

Fact is, the CC at launch was nearly universally heralded as a very clean, very appealing design.

Your opinion is valid, it's your own. But your dis-like of the CC's looks puts you in the minority.

Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.

Incorrect.

It was one of those "employee pricing for all" events.

As I said, I did not like the'13 CC or Vw reliability and also got plenty of rebates on the 3.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.

Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC.

Thats true too. Fwd vs rwd. The CC was at least offered in a manual though

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Obviously styling is a personal preference but I think the CC is ugly as sin. It has too much of the bubble/swoop styling that was popular a few years ago but which now has gone by the wayside in higher end cars.

Also, if the torque steer of the FWD CC with the 2.0T is anything like the A4 2.0T I test drove, there's no way in hell I would get one. I really liked the A4 overall on my test drive (after all I've been driving A4s for like 11 years) but I would have opted for Quattro.

With options a CC is bumping into $40K territory and has worse residual value. On a lease, the 328 is really not much more expensive.

You mean the same styling as the current Mercedes CLS, BMW Gran Coupe and similar to the Audi A7? And I'm not looking to spend $40K on a CC, the Sport model is about $31K well enough optioned for me.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

In September 2007 the E90 3er had been on the market for 18 months, current C Class was in its first month on the market and the current A4 was still a year away.



From my recent drives at the BMW F30 Olympics driving event (street driving):

F30 -both models
Lexus IS250 - its motor and tranny are well mated and its V6 is better than Merc's or Audi's fours. I also prefer its front cabin.
C250
A4, fwd w/cvt - gawd awful.


No.


As soon as I read your first two sentences my thought was, "that was a money decision."





For a good number of buyers in this segment for whom fwd is not an issue the TL is a competitor, just as the fwd A4 is. There are a few buyers in this segment who find the Verano a pleasing choice. The styling is good, the price is good, fwd is not an issue for them, they like being a part of Buick's new direction and GM's recovery.

I'm sure there are a few buyers who'd consider a Verano but there are also people who cross shop a 3 series with a Sonata or TSX.

Originally Posted by dtc100

The hottie C never matched the E90's great sales numbers last year. It is the F30 that fell behind the hottie C in the last two months. Maybe because the F30 does not look so hot?

I told you don't bring E90 into this discussion, else I will ask you banned

The last two months of the F30 saw no inventory on the lots and no XDrives.

The last time BMW transitioned the 3 Series they experienced double-digit sales drops for six consecutive months and that was with the XDrives available from the beginning.

Your admitted mission to "GET BMW TO LISTEN TO US!" Has failed; I suggest your next agenda should be to order an F30. It's inevitable. Stop playing hard to get.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The last two months of the F30 saw no inventory on the lots and no XDrives.

The last time BMW transitioned the 3 Series they experienced double-digit sales drops for six consecutive months and that was with the XDrives available from the beginning.

Your admitted mission to "GET BMW TO LISTEN TO US!" Has failed; I suggest your next agenda should be to order an F30. It's inevitable. Stop playing hard to get.

BJ

you know he will have an F30 when his lease is up lol

Originally Posted by justinnum1

Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC.

You're a bit behind. I started the talk about a CC as a less expensive car to lease than an F30 and IMO a better alternative to the aged and thirsty G37. It's plenty sporty and the Sport model is at least $5K less than a base 328i. Of course I'd rather have a 328i but it's probably out of my price range.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

you know he will have an F30 when his lease is up lol

Of course.

He just wants to play with the adults. If you haven't checked out the E90 forum, you should.

This thread in particular you may find interesting:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=647233

I'm trying to teach them about xenon lights and other technical marvels that have occurred since 2005.

BJ

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

You mean the same styling as the current Mercedes CLS, BMW Gran Coupe and similar to the Audi A7? And I'm not looking to spend $40K on a CC, the Sport model is about $31K well enough optioned for me.

Some negotiations had an $31k '13 CC offered to me for $26k.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Some negotiations had an $31k '13 CC offered to me for $26k.

That's a lot of car for that price. Maybe in 2014 it will have the same engine as the new GTI which would be awesome.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

You're a bit behind. I started the talk about a CC as a less expensive car to lease than an F30 and IMO a better alternative to the aged and thirsty G37. It's plenty sporty and the Sport model is at least $5K less than a base 328i. Of course I'd rather have a 328i but it's probably out of my price range.

An equivalently equipped 2013 328i would have an MSRP only marginally higher than your 2011 model.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

You're a bit behind. I started the talk about a CC as a less expensive car to lease than an F30 and IMO a better alternative to the aged and thirsty G37. It's plenty sporty and the Sport model is at least $5K less than a base 328i. Of course I'd rather have a 328i but it's probably out of my price range.

you are coming in mid conversation. did you even read who my quote was directed at?

When there is a quote above my post, that means i am directing my comment at that person...

my comment was in response to this:

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Well, I would comment that if you are privy to special employee lease deals in which they effectively are giving the car away to you for free, it's a bit hard to understand why you bought a BMW this go around.

which is why i wrote
"Maybe he enjoys driving and wants to have an engaging sports sedan. The f30 is a much more enjoyable car to drive than a CC."
neither voip or myself were talking about you...

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

That's a lot of car for that price. Maybe in 2014 it will have the same engine as the new GTI which would be awesome.

The 2.0 in there now is underrated. Until it gets the valve lift 2.0 from Audi it wont be very different. My car was very quick with a tune...about 245whp/290tq. They are also pretty loaded for the money.

the CC is like a german TL