Is the new 3 series is losing US market share?

Originally Posted by dtc100

Let me try it this way. To meet CAFE, BMW must sell 20 328s (for argument sake), for each 335 they move, then here is your answer. For each 335i allocation, the dealers must accept this number of 328s, but there are not 20 times of 335 buyers who will buy 328s.

I am not saying you wrong dude, but this is not a production issue, its a restriction issue BMW has to deal with. And again since the 335i is not that much more expensive than the 328i no wonder they are dealing with this issue. Hell if I was making the decisions at BMW, I would have given the 335i a 40 Hp and 50 lbs or torque boost and added a couple of more thousand to its price, while including at the very least heated font seats. I think they are realizing this now because you saw the difference between the standard equipment of the 2012 F30 and the 2013. Totally stupid IMO not giving this brand new model a boast in power to the N55.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Whether a car look good or not is subjective, but being "tired and stale" has some objectivity to it.

If a car has being the same look for very long, in the case of the E90, 8 years, AND there are so many of them you see the same look many times a day, yes it can be "tired and stale". I like the look of E90, but totally understand it when people say the above.

On the other hand, many people, even those who drive BMWs, when look at the F30, often mistaken it for the F10 5 series. I wouldn't call such look "refreshing and exciting" when your own enthusiasts cannot tell what it is, it lacks creativity when you simply shrink a 5 down to 3.

If look is the only measure, the "tired and stale" but refreshed C (and maybe even A4) win over the new F30, if for nothing else, the styling stands on its own.

You seem to want to make arguments against the F30 for no good reason. Most of them are easy to counter like this one. I couldn't tell a 2013 C class exterior from a 2011 without doing some study. And this with looking at one about 2 months ago at a dealer. The interior is a different story. The newer A4 is a nice refresh but far from radical. Yes it's hard to tell the F30 from an E90 without seeing the front of the car but who really gives a damn? It's what the car is like when driven and that's what makes the F30 stand out from the competition. Even with it's faults (mainly EPS and hard tires) it still beats the competition including the ATS.

I don't understand your constant need to beat on the F30. Sometimes it just borders on obsessive.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

2011 328i E90
-Metallic paint
-Value Package
-Heated seats
-BMW Assist (to get bluetooth which is now std)
-Power rear shade.

Retail was about $36,500.00.

A base F30 with these options (including leather) is about $40,500.00.

What if you let go leather? Frankly I don't see much value of it.

Originally Posted by dtc100

What if you let go leather? Frankly I don't see much value of it.

Not the point. I'm trying to reduce my monthly payment not increase it. And I got a very good deal on my car so I doubt I could get a comparably equipped F30 even with leatherette for less than what I now pay.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

You seem to want to make arguments against the F30 for no good reason. Most of them are easy to counter like this one. I couldn't tell a 2013 C class exterior from a 2011 without doing some study. And this with looking at one about 2 months ago at a dealer. The interior is a different story. The newer A4 is a nice refresh but far from radical. Yes it's hard to tell the F30 from an E90 without seeing the front of the car but who really gives a damn? It's what the car is like when driven and that's what makes the F30 stand out from the competition. Even with it's faults (mainly EPS and hard tires) it still beats the competition including the ATS.

I don't understand your constant need to beat on the F30. Sometimes it just borders on obsessive.

That is because you read me wrong. Of course you had hard time telling 13 C and 11 C apart, because they are the same model, with minor facelift. But the new C can not easily be mistaken as an E.

At least I try to state facts, not my opinions. It is a fact some BMW drivers (not to mention non-BMW drivers) could not easily tell the F30 from the F10. Do you agree or disagree, there is a little lack of creativity drawn from such fact?

Maybe you don't care about the looks as much as how it drives, and I share the same view with you, but I am not so arrogant to say it does not matter as long as I don't care. Apparently many others do care.

Since you view driving dynamics as paramount, have you driven an ATS and try to push it on the bends and at the corners? Too bad the ATS manual is no good, and you want a manual, but most people will buy auto, not manual. The ATS 6sp auto is more fun than the 8sp.

If you want to attack someone, make sure you understand what exactly he is saying first.

Originally Posted by dtc100

That is because you read me wrong. Of course you had hard time telling 13 C and 11 C apart, because they are the same model, with minor facelift. But the new C can not easily be mistaken as an E.

At least I try to state facts, not my opinions. It is a fact some BMW drivers (not to mention non-BMW drivers) could not easily tell the F30 from the F10. Do you agree or disagree, there is a little lack of creativity drawn from such fact?

If you want to attack someone, make sure you understand what exactly he is saying first.

I'm reacting to your general posture on this site. Every since the F30 came out your tone is to find some reason to see it in a negative way. And you are right about the F10 and F30 but once again, this is not a BMW specific issue. From the rear it's hard to tell and A4 from an A6 and an A6 from an A8. It's a conscious decision by the automakers. Cadillac has been doing this for a while. I see a lot of XTS's around town and there's a very close resemblance other than size to the ATS. It seems to me that you are making up reasons to dislike the BMW.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I'm reacting to your general posture on this site. Every since the F30 came out your tone is to find some reason to see it in a negative way. And you are right about the F10 and F30 but once again, this is not a BMW specific issue. From the rear it's hard to tell and A4 from an A6 and an A6 from an A8. It's a conscious decision by the automakers. Cadillac has been doing this for a while. I see a lot of XTS's around town and there's a very close resemblance other than size to the ATS. It seems to me that you are making up reasons to dislike the BMW.

I have not read people mistaken an A4 for A6, and there is little chance one could mistaken an ATS for an XTS. There is certainly no mistaken a C for an E, while the brand identity is still well kept.

I could have easily said you were trying to mislead when you claimed the F30 is $4,000 more than a comparable E90. For most people, even me, F30 is a good value if you compare to E90. Here I am not all negative about F30.

But then as I pointed out, it is not about F30 vs. E90, it is about F30 vs. C, A or G...because believe it or not, E90 will not be on my next shopping list.

Originally Posted by dtc100

I have not read people mistaken an A4 for A6, and there is little chance one could mistaken an ATS for an XTS. There is certainly no mistaken a C for an E, while the brand identity is still well kept.

I could have easily said you were trying to mislead when you claimed the F30 is $4,000 more than a comparable E90. For most people, even me, F30 is a good value if you compare to E90. Here I am not all negative about F30.

But then as I pointed out, it is not about F30 vs. E90, it is about F30 vs. C, A or G...

This is exactly why people don't like you. I was 100% clear and presented all of the facts about the price of my E90 vs a comparable F30. There is no ambiguity. None. I was 100% upfront about everything. How was I misleading people?

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

This is exactly why people don't like you. I was 100% clear and presented all of the facts about the price of my E90 vs a comparable F30. There is no ambiguity. None. I was 100% upfront about everything. How was I misleading people?

I did not come here so people can like me.

What you did not consider is that added value of the F30 with other features the E90 does not have. Maybe those new features are not important to you, but BMW does not just sell one 328i to you. I happen to see little value in leather, in particular, the leather in my E90 is not compelling at all, but I didn't care and it was free.

To say that the F30 is $4k more than the E90 is misleading, when the base price only went up by $1k, with more standard features.

Even so, I have no problem if you point out what are important to you and why the F30 lacks value, to you. Should I complain about your negativity?

Originally Posted by dtc100

I did not come here so people can like me.

What you did not consider is that added value of the F30 with other features the E90 does not have. Maybe those new features are not important to you, but BMW does not just sell one 328i to you. I happen to see little value in leather, in particular, the leather in my E90 is not compelling at all, but I didn't care and it was free.

To say that the F30 is $4k more than the E90 is misleading, when the base price only went up by $1k, with more standard features.

Even so, I have no problem if you point out what are important to you and why the F30 lacks value. Should I complain about your negativity?

Go back and read my post. I quite clearly said: "Yes it has more features" in reference to the F30. The bottom line and this is quite clear and impossible to misinterpret is an equally optioned F30 is $4000.00 more than my E90. To me that's all that matters in this conversation. The options I wanted are not included in the base price of the F30. I agree the new features like power seats, iDrive and others are great to have and adding these increases the value of the base F30.

I was talking to the dealer and I heard similar comments about plenty of 328 inventory and great deals if you want to buy one. What was surprising is that the 5-series has less inventory/supply.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Go back and read my post. I quite clearly said: "Yes it has more features" in reference to the F30. The bottom line and this is quite clear and impossible to misinterpret is an equally optioned F30 is $4000.00 more than my E90. To me that's all that matters in this conversation. The options I wanted are not included in the base price of the F30. I agree the new features like power seats, iDrive and others are great to have and adding these increases the value of the base F30.

If driving dynamics is more important to you, as it is to me, one can easily live with different convenience features. I used leather as an example. Maybe in the near future leather will be standard or in a free value package added. The point is, I did not expect you to take that against the F30.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

2011 328i E90
-Metallic paint
-Value Package
-Heated seats
-BMW Assist (to get bluetooth which is now std)
-Power rear shade.

Retail was about $36,500.00.

A base F30 with these options (including leather) is about $40,500.00.

Value packages like you describe on your car is a very typical ploy for a car at the end of it's life cycle.

These are offered to keep interest in a car years into it's cycle. They make for very attractive lease offers too.

This is just how it goes.

About a year or so before a new model, even with something like an Altima they whip out a value package where things like power seats and moonroof are offered when they might have been part of a much more expensive package before. The price is low, maybe $189 a month. Then the new model comes out and often packages restrict things all over again and lease prices are higher.

This is not an absolute all the time kind of thing, but it's very common.

I would be willing to bet, that as the F30 ages in cycle, you will see the value packages back and priced accordingly.

It's simply in a manufacturers bag of tricks to keep interest up along a 5 year timeline.

Originally Posted by dtc100

If driving dynamics is more important to you, as it is to me, one can easily live with different convenience features. I used leather as an example. Maybe in the near future leather will be standard or in a free value package added. The point is, I did not expect you to take that against the F30.

The leather option is not pertinent to the conversation. Take out leather and the car is still $39,000.00 which unless I get a spectacular deal will be more than what I pay for my E90. I also happen to think the 3 series is more than just driving dynamics and prefer to sit on leather rather than plastic. If I somehow end up in a CC it will lack leather but at $31K retail I can live with it.

Lets move on please because we have taken this thread way OT. Let's get back to the far fetched reasons the F30 may be losing market share based on a 6 month sample and lack of x-drive until very recently.

I think that those who feel BMW is losing market share and it's because of 4 cylinder engines, EPS, styling IMO don't understand what the typical BMW buyer looks for. Badge, badge, badge. I can see price being a factor. Overall, we need to wait another year to see if this is a trend which I severly doubt.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Value packages like you describe on your car is a very typical ploy for a car at the end of it's life cycle.

These are offered to keep interest in a car years into it's cycle. They make for very attractive lease offers too.

This is just how it goes.

About a year or so before a new model, even with something like an Altima they whip out a value package where things like power seats and moonroof are offered when they might have been part of a much more expensive package before. The price is low, maybe $189 a month. Then the new model comes out and often packages restrict things all over again and lease prices are higher.

This is not an absolute all the time kind of thing, but it's very common.

I would be willing to bet, that as the F30 ages in cycle, you will see the value packages back and priced accordingly.

It's simply in a manufacturers bag of tricks to keep interest up along a 5 year timeline.

Thanks. I understand this and it and the ZVP was instrumental in my decision. Prior to my 2011 I leased a 2008 E90 with ZPP. I was a bit green on how to negotiate a BMW lease and paid too much for that car. I set a budget and my next car had to fit that budget whether it was a BMW or something else like a CC of GTI. Fortunately the ZVP came out just in time and I was able to end up in a new 3 series at the price I wanted to pay. I sacrificed the sunroof (not an issue at all) and the power memory seats (I miss these a lot) and folding and dipping mirrors to stay in a BMW.

Next time around this may not be feasible thus the interest in a CC or maybe even an X1 if I like how it drives. Lack of a MT may eliminate this car although the CC has the same issue but with a DCT which mitigates the problem somewhat. So maybe with a relatively tight budget for a car, F30 pricing may have cost BMW sales.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Thanks. I understand this and it and the ZVP was instrumental in my decision. Prior to my 2011 I leased a 2008 E90 with ZPP. I was a bit green on how to negotiate a BMW lease and paid too much for that car. I set a budget and my next car had to fit that budget whether it was a BMW or something else like a CC of GTI. Fortunately the ZVP came out just in time and I was able to end up in a new 3 series at the price I wanted to pay. I sacrificed the sunroof (not an issue at all) and the power memory seats (I miss these a lot) and folding and dipping mirrors to stay in a BMW.

Next time around this may not be feasible thus the interest in a CC or maybe even an X1 if I like how it drives. Lack of a MT may eliminate this car although the CC has the same issue but with a DCT which mitigates the problem somewhat. So maybe with a relatively tight budget for a car, F30 pricing may have cost BMW sales.

I only drive manuals and walked away with a 6mt CC. Options are still shuffled around keeping manuals only in certain cars, but the base CC with a manual is pretty loaded. I prefer the leather-ette in the CC to BMW. I got a solid lease deal in early '09 when they were new and bought out the car and had it CPO'd so I had a longer warranty. You will not want a CC out of warranty.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I think that those who feel BMW is losing market share and it's because of 4 cylinder engines, EPS, styling IMO don't understand what the typical BMW buyer looks for. Badge, badge, badge. I can see price being a factor. Overall, we need to wait another year to see if this is a trend which I severly doubt.

The real world cost of the C and A are not that different than the F30. Maybe not a single factor above can lead to any sales issues, but together they add up.

I don't know about the CC, while I think it is a nice looking car, it is not in the same segment. If I am considering a VW, in other words status is no longer a consideration, I'd go with a Golf GTI, more fun and more practical.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Let me try it this way. To meet CAFE, BMW must sell 20 328s (for argument sake), for each 335 they move, then here is your answer. For each 335i allocation, the dealers must accept this number of 328s, but there are not 20 times of 335 buyers who will buy 328s.

Having said that, I am reminded that the 335i is very close to 328i in mpg ratings. Then my speculation could be a total BS.

It is.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

It is.

So you are convinced CAFE standard has no impact on how many 335s BMW builds?

Originally Posted by dtc100

I don't know about the CC, while I think it is a nice looking car, it is not in the same segment. If I am considering a VW, in other words status is no longer a consideration, I'd go with a Golf GTI, more fun and more practical.

Drive one.

It's a BIG GTI. They share a lot in common. The CC is only 120lbs heavier than a 5dr GTI.

GTI has a whole other persona. If I had only one car and wanted it to be sporty and youthful, yeah GTI is a good choice.

But as a DD to a sports car(which is my situation), the CC is a very good choice. CC vs 3 series. It's a bit of an off comparo the minute you compare a FWD car to RWD. I will say I loved my CC and would not have the 3 if not for the cruddy reliability I experienced.

Originally Posted by dtc100

So you are convinced CAFE standard has no impact on how many 335s BMW builds?

I am. Especially when users are saying they get 34+mpg on the highway.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

I am. Especially when users are saying they get 34+mpg on the highway.

A lot of F30 328i users are saying they get 40+ on the highway.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

GTI has a whole other persona. If I had only one car and wanted it to be sporty and youthful, yeah GTI is a good choice.

I did drive the CC, and don't remember how it was after two years. If I am willing to consider the mainstream brands, not entry level luxury, I might as well be sporty, youthful, and practical at the same time.

Originally Posted by dtc100

So you are convinced CAFE standard has no impact on how many 335s BMW builds?

BMW builds 335's based on consumer demand. They aren't artificially suppressing the demand to sell more 328's.

Originally Posted by dtc100

A lot of F30 328i users are saying they get 40+ on the highway.

So? Your need to put down the F30 is getting pathetic, you pretty much ran out of points and using some weak arguments lol.

Not sure if your trying to be a troll but you are.