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BMW Diesel Owners / Enthusiasts
Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #1  
Old 09-27-2012, 04:19 AM
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Wagner IC

Ok before going anal on this, this is the WAGNER IC just recently made thanks to the DOC in Germany and thanks to WAGNER for making it, no other company Cx Racing has an IC for us. THERE is NO DATA as of yet so DONT ask me questions, what ,where, when or whatever, I have written to WAGNER and the main people to start this was 62Lincoln aka DieselDiner and the DOC!! Thanks to them this has come true. The specs will come later as Mr. Wagner himself has told us the price will be around $650 as stated on the email he sent me. They are planning in making around 100 of these ICs that will work for the 330d and 335d, if you have any technical questions direct yourself to 62Lincoln or Mr. WAGNER himself, ALL I want is one of these things since they look as OEM as possible. He sent me pics and I will post them, he also stated that he would send me better quality pics since he used an IPHONE() Anyway look and enjoy the pics more info will be coming soon this has been in the making for the past 2 months,Gracias
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  #2  
Old 09-27-2012, 07:18 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Has anyone so far posted any data showing that the factory IC is being inefficient for them and if so what mods(if any) were done to their car?
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:29 AM
cssnms cssnms is offline
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Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
Has anyone so far posted any data showing that the factory IC is being inefficient for them and if so what mods(if any) were done to their car?
For thediesel, the only logs that I have seen were from TDIWyse and his friend was running the JBD at the lower setting. I can't recall what the results were, but if memory serves me right, the logs did show IAT's did shoot up after repeated full throttle runs -- ideally want to keep IAT's within 20 degrees of ambient temps.

There are plenty of logs demonstrating the benefits on a gasser 335 pre and post IC install, just not necessarily for the Wagner IC. Here is a review of the Wagner IC shared by DD. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=wagner

Wagner is conduting more R&D and stated they will provide all of the data when they are complete. Hopefully that data will consist of before and after install logs.

I think those that will benefit the most from the larger IC are those running tunes and/or drive their cars hard (i.e. track events etc) and/or live in hot climates.

Last edited by cssnms; 09-27-2012 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:41 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Guess I more specifically want to know for those running tunes on their diesels if they are finding via logs/monitoring that the factory IC is inefficient when they are being aggressive in their street driving. For those prices though I am surprised people do not just opt to have one custom made for their application. Only reason I say that is because I spent around that for the last intercooler I had made although that was a few years ago and perhaps things have gone up a lot in cost.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:00 AM
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@Snipe, TurboEddie from boost configured a 335i IC to adapt to his "D" and he told me the car is giving him anywhere from 44-47 mpg HIGHWAY at speeds of 70 mph, he drives mostly Hwy miles anyway. But yes I beleive there will be a GREAT improvement on ou cars, Lenny from RENNtech also advized to get and IC for my car in the future since the OEM IC is not the best there is.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:07 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by Axel61 View Post
@Snipe, TurboEddie from boost configured a 335i IC to adapt to his "D" and he told me the car is giving him anywhere from 44-47 mpg HIGHWAY at speeds of 70 mph, he drives mostly Hwy miles anyway. But yes I beleive there will be a GREAT improvement on ou cars, Lenny from RENNtech also advized to get and IC for my car in the future since the OEM IC is not the best there is.
What is done to TurboEddie's car because what you are saying implies to me that the factory IC is inefficient just cruising down the freeway. That to me I find a little hard to believe because with the wind blowing over it in that scenario should be the time it is the most efficient. I'd also think it would be the time the least amount of "charged" air is being pumped through it.

I am sure the factory IC is not the best there is but my questions are more on if someone has actually logged things to show that it is in fact inefficient for likely use scenarios. I thought a lot of these "tunes" did not even up the boost on the cars and would have thought increased boost levels is what would put a potentionally efficient unit into the inefficient range. So makes me wonder as to perhaps how inefficient this thing is in stock usage scenarios. I just know from person experience on turbocharged gas cars that the only times I ended up needing a better intercooler is when I got greedy with boost and/or put bigger turbos on.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:17 AM
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Frankly speaking if youre not inclined to driving hard like most of us do then the OEM IC is good for you but if you do drive hard then I believe you would have to modify certain parts of ANY car to get the best performance. I.e. you bench flash or piggy back be prepared to have a better intake, exhaust, suspension, and brakes!! if so desired but not all if the money is not available, but again to each its own, check turboEddie at the boost and give him a PM , Im pretty sure he has a log to satisfy anyone who inquires.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:21 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by Axel61 View Post
Frankly speaking if youre not inclined to driving hard like most of us do then the OEM IC is good for you but if you do drive hard then I believe you would have to modify certain parts of ANY car to get the best performance. I.e. you bench flash or piggy back be prepared to have a better intake, exhaust, suspension, and brakes!! if so desired but not all if the money is not available, but again to each its own, check turboEddie at the boost and give him a PM , Im pretty sure he has a log to satisfy anyone who inquires.
We modify 6.0 PSD trucks down here a lot and "frankly speaking" the IC never has been inefficient and we are in fact upping the boost levels a lot. Sometimes people modify parts because they think they are inefficient yet they have no proof and are just throwing their money into the wind so to speak. I see guys do this on those same trucks where they replace pieces of the exhaust because they figure it is a restriction when in fact it long since has been proven it is not. I used to see this same exact logic when I raced turbocharged Mustangs for years. There is nothing wrong with having a curiosity to see what is and is not a weak point on a car's setup for someones overall goals with it.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:29 AM
cssnms cssnms is offline
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We modify 6.0 PSD trucks down here a lot and "frankly speaking" the IC never has been inefficient and we are in fact upping the boost levels a lot. Sometimes people modify parts because they think they are inefficient yet they have no proof and are just throwing their money into the wind so to speak. I see guys do this on those same trucks where they replace pieces of the exhaust because they figure it is a restriction when in fact it long since has been proven it is not. I used to see this same exact logic when I raced turbocharged Mustangs for years. There is nothing wrong with having a curiosity to see what is and is not a weak point on a car's setup for someones overall goals with it.
Which is precisely why Wagner needs to provide the R&D data to support the notion that there will be benefit.

For me a larger IC is not about the expectation that I will gain some substantial increase in HP, it's more about sustaining an acceptable delta between IAT's and ambient temps for a longer period time - thus resulting in higher sustained hp delivery. Dyno runs have proven that heat soak is a killer on our cars, so being able to maintain/sustain peak hp/torque output for a longer period of time is an advantage in my book.

Perhaps TDIWyse will chime in regartding his IAT findings when he logged his friend's car.

Last edited by cssnms; 09-27-2012 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:40 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Which is precisely why Wagner needs to provide the R&D data to support the notion that there will be benefit.

For me a larger IC is not about the expectation that I will gain some substantial increase in HP, it's more about sustaining an acceptable delta between IAT's and ambient temps for a longer period time - thus resulting in higher sustained hp delivery. Dyno runs have proven that heat soak is a killer on our cars, so being able to maintain/sustain peak hp/torque output for a longer period of time is an advantage in my book.

Perhaps TDIWyse will chime in regartding his IAT findings when he logged his friend's car.
Dyno runs can be a bad way of determining things, well unless the heat soak is just REALLY bad. Reason being is even with those fancy fans they use it is really hard to emulate the real world effect wind has.

I do not see an IC as an avenue to HP but as an avenue for getting the delta you are speaking of, which ultimately should help with maintaining HP across usage. Then even if these cars do have a poorly efficient factory IC it still is nice to look at the data for aftermarket options because not all IC cores are created equally too.

I am not knocking the option for one, just curious to see the data people have collected to prove both the need for one and how much each aftermarket option help solve that need. Since I do not frequent the other BMW forums enough to know about all options/issues for the 335d then just figured asking here might result in seeing where others have already done all this.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:00 AM
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Gracias Chris!!
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:07 PM
GreekboyD GreekboyD is offline
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Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
Dyno runs can be a bad way of determining things, well unless the heat soak is just REALLY bad. Reason being is even with those fancy fans they use it is really hard to emulate the real world effect wind has.

I do not see an IC as an avenue to HP but as an avenue for getting the delta you are speaking of, which ultimately should help with maintaining HP across usage. Then even if these cars do have a poorly efficient factory IC it still is nice to look at the data for aftermarket options because not all IC cores are created equally too.

I am not knocking the option for one, just curious to see the data people have collected to prove both the need for one and how much each aftermarket option help solve that need. Since I do not frequent the other BMW forums enough to know about all options/issues for the 335d then just figured asking here might result in seeing where others have already done all this.
Well said. Let's see what data Wagner shows us with their IC.

Last edited by GreekboyD; 09-28-2012 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:32 AM
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Wagner is commited to get us that, he wrote an email to another member from another forum that is in PLACE!! and the next thing is to develope an IC for X5d soon after the test are performed on the 335d, ok amigos, write to carsten Wagner and he will sned u an email.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:56 AM
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Heres the link from FACEBOOk that Mark from Wagner sent me , enjoy it!!

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...03328759733332
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:14 AM
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Ok the latest word is that 335dwagon a.k.a. "Doc" from GERMANY is getting his IC installed at WAGNER home base this FRIDAY!!!, he was the guy that drove 5 hours and spent the whole day at WAGNER and THEN drove another 5 hours home, WAGNER, I believe will get the DATA from the DOC's car and will be posted later by them, "Doc" will send us pics of install etc, etc but in another forum. Will keep everyone posted!!
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:42 AM
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what is done to turboeddie's car because what you are saying implies to me that the factory ic is inefficient just cruising down the freeway. That to me i find a little hard to believe because with the wind blowing over it in that scenario should be the time it is the most efficient. I'd also think it would be the time the least amount of "charged" air is being pumped through it.

I am sure the factory ic is not the best there is but my questions are more on if someone has actually logged things to show that it is in fact inefficient for likely use scenarios.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:08 AM
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at Snipe and Taibanl I question you two, have you logged anything to make us wonder if your assesments are correct, if so please provide or otherwise go the other site and inquire at TurboEddie about his logs. Another thing we tend to forget our ICs have a sensor that actually protects our engine in over boosting(heat soak) or something to that effect so that our engines are not compromised and damaged it will trigger Safe Mode
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:35 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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at Snipe and Taibanl I question you two, have you logged anything to make us wonder if your assesments are correct, if so please provide or otherwise go the other site and inquire at TurboEddie about his logs. Another thing we tend to forget our ICs have a sensor that actually protects our engine in over boosting(heat soak) or something to that effect so that our engines are not compromised and damaged it will trigger Safe Mode
I have not logged a single thing but nor am I making radical claims. What have you logged? How much experience do you have with aftermarket intercoolers? What brand cores did they use? What was your testing procedure? You tell me then why would a supposedly more efficient intercooler cause an increase in mpg when cruising down the freeway which is a point not much boost would be flowing through it for cooling and a point when the air is so "thick" that the intercooler should be at one of its most efficient points of usage, basically meaning that is the point an intercooler is least even needed on a turbocharged car.

I happen to have a large amount of experience with testing aftermarket intercoolers on several different cars. I could not even begin to guess the countless hours spent testing ones with different cores, designs, and placements. I know after it was all said and done a large percentage of them were nothing more than automotive snake oil for lack of a better term. I know from it all that the core selection is a critical aspect, there is actually a reason why things like Marston, Secan and Behr are so costly. I also know that many times a more efficient intercooler really does not help the overall combination much(if any) because it was an unneeded item for the combination.

So excuse me for having a curiosity about such things and trying to find out the details experts came up with to show a need for something. And no I am not going to join yet another BMW forum, one is more than enough for my attention span.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:15 PM
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Let the games begin, here we go again, snipe! I know you have not logged anything otherwise you would post it,right? i for one NEVER have implide suggested or whatever any claims. i have indeed posted my dyno runs either in this site or the other site. As a matter of fact I have no experience on ICs,but obviously you have and had disastrous results, your bad. I have come know TurboEddie and his claim is personal and he IS NOT sponsoring Cx Racing whatsover, he is talking about his car. A truck is a truck is a truck, dont compare these two personalities, it aint going to happen amigo!! Since you have a vast experience on ALL the aforementioned ICs you have used why dont you bring us to par for us the NOVICES in IC 101.

Since your countles hours waisted in other words what do you recommend to these tuners that ACTUALLY have all the experiences of performance vehicles, and in othher words what is it supposed to be the ideal IC for our cars, let us know we are very intrigued with your expertise . Your are being curious because if you were you would actually contact these tuners and give your expert opinion so that a better product perspective is then produce during R&D.

The mere fact that your attention span is more than enough for you as you stated previously does not partake from participating in other forums or even contacting these Tuners itself, I encourage you as well as anyone also, I for one have made progress communicating and partook in providing info to RENNtech and suggested to other people. WE NEED someone like YOU to help out. SO I strongly suggest if so desired, to help us get a better aftermarket product for us!!!

I as well as others in this forum thank you for your expertise. Gracias!!
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:12 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Axel you have no idea as to my background with modifying and racing different turbocharged vehicles. And apparently can't see what I am saying and asking on things.
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:50 PM
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I have an OBD readout on intake temps and water temps displayed constantly in my car. Under full throttle, the IT's only go up +10-12F over ambient. Water temp hangs around 179-181 up to 205 (during idles, traffic). I cannot log the temperatures onto a computer or anything, but can record a 24second session of it.

Edit: Forgot to mention I have a JBD @ 85%, if in fact that really matters.

Last edited by WreckerAFG; 10-03-2012 at 03:00 PM. Reason: adding something
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:41 PM
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Snipe i cant imagine how you know but do us all a favor,put into practice and enlighten us,as i stated most of us are novices!!! And the simple fact that a person of ur experience does not want to share this knowledge confunds me and others

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Old 10-03-2012, 05:45 PM
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Axel,

In the interest of sharing some basic knowledge on IC's, allow me to offer this:

The turbo charger is a simple rotary (centrifugal) air compressor. It draws in outside ambient air through the air filter. As air is compressed it gets hot and increases in both pressure and temperature, but decreases in volume. The IC (Intercooler) then cools this compressed air back down to a lower temperature, but it is still hotter than original ambient air. I don't have any of the exact temps and pressures to throw out here.

The intercooler is in turn cooled by either ambient air flowing through tube fins or by engine cooling water that was previously cooled by the radiator which is a water tubed fin cooler. Either way it lowers the compressed air (now known as charge air) temperature prior to it entering the cylinder via the intake valve.

The whole purpose of this is to pack more air into a smaller space so you can then inject more fuel and get a bigger explosion (or expansion) and make an otherwise boring engine into a vehicle we like to call the 335D.

My Garmin Ecoroute HD shows me ambient air and intake air temp, so I can see what is the Delta T and thus have an idea how the intercooler is performing. The purpose of installing an aftermarket IC is to allow the charge air temp to be dropped even lower which increases air density (more air in same volume of space, i.e. an engine cylinder) which in turn allows for a bit more fuel, and thus an increase in power. It may also be just to keep things from running too hot as in the racing world where you are pushing things to their limit.

This is not the case for our cars running at 80mph on an open highway. Which is most likely what the engineer's are designing to. But certainly there is plenty of margin to handle the occasional boost of power we demand of our cars from time to time.

If you plan to race, you would most likely want and need better intercooling capacity than what our cars come with.

If you are a racing fanatic (which I am not) I suppose you might want to keep close records or logs of these parameters so you know what you may need to be doing to your engine to get more out of it.

If I've told you something you already knew, I apologize.
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Last edited by Flyingman; 10-03-2012 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:43 AM
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@Flying man I greatly appreciate your insight, having owned an 02 MCS that had its IC on top of the engine I learned that ONE you had to have more air go thru the IC so I bought the M7 larger intake scoop, SECOND I also realized the car would run hotter so I bought the M7 180 degree thermostat and both these two items HELPED a whole in the performance of the car.

My problem is and eslewhere is that people tend to say they did this and that and trust me I listen carefully!! and i make my judgement later. The mere fact that there is so MUCH knowledge on some members of any board that can help that YET they sit back and say things thats not only annoys me but as well to others forum members, this happens in other forums I have been in also!!. Be PROACTIVE help yourself and others!!!

I also have learned thru trial and tribulations but it does not make me cynical or well knowledge, if you come and tell me that your new IC you made up and molded it to your "D" is giving you better mileage, so BE IT!! Im happy for you and you seem to know what your talking about then I will consider your saying, on the other hand ,dont come to me as an outsider and question me because I gave info that was relayed to me, GO ASK the source and question them!! not me!!!

I for one as well as another member of this board have been actively seeking and Installing aftermarket parts for ours cars as we speak, yes there is a WARRANTY issue, but read the Magnusson-Moss act, some of us violated that, and I am one of htem but, its a gamble, life is a gamble.

I would prefer someone to come and talk to me as well as others here if they have cojones!! and say "hey guys this is whats happening and we feel it is not going to work or it will work" and NOT I havent triesd it bought it wont work, F'That put your money where your mouth is!!

If I have offended anyone I do apologise but dont BULL**** a Bull****ter. I am here to help and partake any forum ideas & innuendos and i will be the first one to say the negative impacts, if you have read the EXECUHITCH issue and how I critsized them for their LACK of knowledge on their product!!! on our "D"s. to this day they have NOT contacted me, as i installed the hitch they requested photos and videos, HELL NO I wont give it up. I endure a painstaking problem installing it but I do give props to it it is by far the BEST HITCH for our "D"s. So now most of you know who I am. If you have any questions feel free to call me or PM I am not afraid to give out insight to anyone. Gracias!!
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:21 AM
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Here's the latest info on the IC that was sent to DieselDiner:

Quote:
I just got back after the 11 hours trip with a 45 minute long traffic jamb and 1,160 kilometers to and from traveled.

This intercooler is awesome. Noticed a difference right away. Carsten the owner of Wagner and I did temperature checks before and after the new intercooler install. The old intercooler was reading around 64 degrees Celsius from the intercooler to the intake with an ambient outside air temp of 11 degrees Celsius. The new one had an outside air temp of 12 degrees Celsius and an awesome 41 degrees Celsius from the intercooler to the intake.

The new Wagner intercooler needed absolutely zero cutting of the front bumper to install. Just one piece of plastic had to be removed on the RH side of the intercooler. Carsten said that he would be posting photos. I will post them when I get a chance.

I left there around 1300 my time and around 0700 AM your time. Carsten also stated he was going to put in the word after I left to start production of 100 of them. Again this is a great addition to our already potent 335d engine.


Ok there it is, now BOMBARD Carsten WAGNER!! with questions!!
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