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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #51  
Old 10-05-2012, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
If fast ring times equals "awesome car" to you then the M5 is perfect for you.
To me and others that have our doubts, ring times means nothing more than that it's a very powerful and very fast car. Fast does not equal overall awesome to us. I've owned cars that were multiples more fun than my F10 was even if the F10 would have lapped them within three laps at the ring. My 4-speed 110 hp 4 banger fwd Golf GTI Mk1 comes to mind. There is so much more than outright speed that makes up the fun to drive factor for some of us and I' have my doubts that the new M5 will tick many boxes for me outside raw power and speed.

I suspect that for drivers who love the non M F10s the M5 is the ultimate car but for us who don't it's probably not going to feel all that awesome and this test review make my doubts stronger.
Honestly if a Golf GTI Mk1 is an awesome car to you then we have nothing in common. I drove that a few times back in the UK and thought it was a POS.

The M5 drives nothing like a 550i M-Sport for what it matters. You seem to prefer reading reviews to driving cars and making your own opinion.
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  #52  
Old 10-05-2012, 03:30 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Honestly if a Golf GTI Mk1 is an awesome car to you then we have nothing in common. I drove that a few times back in the UK and thought it was a POS.

The M5 drives nothing like a 550i M-Sport for what it matters. You seem to prefer reading reviews to driving cars and making your own opinion.
That should be of no surprise to you, I think we established long time ago that we are on the opposite ends of preferences in a car. If you like it I pretty much know that I will not ( the same goes for tadtaggert and richschneid) , there's value in that as well so I enjoy reading your reviews.
The M5 is not that easy to get a drive in yet. So it's not a preference of reading reviews instead of test driving it's just that the availability of M5 test drive cars are still low to non existent at the dealers.

I think you will have a hard time finding anyone who owned a Golf GTI Mk1 in the 70s and 80s that will call it a POS. And the level of raw,communicative and responsive agility it possessed is very difficult to come by today in any type of car. Fast it wasn't but oh so engaging and fun. It's a classic that changed the car industry for the better much like the original M3 and M5. Fun cars that were attainable for mere mortals and sparked competing models from other manufacturers. This might be Euro specific though with less impact over here.

Last edited by solstice; 10-05-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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  #53  
Old 10-05-2012, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
If fast ring times equals "awesome car" to you then the M5 is perfect for you.
To me and others that have our doubts, ring times means nothing more than that it's a very powerful and very fast car. Fast does not equal overall awesome to us. I've owned cars that were multiples more fun than my F10 was even if the F10 would have lapped them within three laps at the ring. My 4-speed 110 hp 4 banger fwd Golf GTI Mk1 comes to mind. There is so much more than outright speed that makes up the fun to drive factor for some of us and I' have my doubts that the new M5 will tick many boxes for me outside raw power and speed.

I suspect that for drivers who love the non M F10s the M5 is the ultimate car but for us who don't it's probably not going to feel all that awesome and this test review make my doubts stronger.
Since when does being fast and powerful not equal to an awesome car?
I see people complaining about the same thing about the Nissan GTR and Mclaren MP4.
If you think a Golf is better than a M5 than that's that.
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  #54  
Old 10-05-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
Since when does being fast and powerful not equal to an awesome car?
I see people complaining about the same thing about the Nissan GTR and Mclaren MP4.
If you think a Golf is better than a M5 than that's that.
Remember back in the day when AMG built cars which cannot turn.

Their cars had more power than M cars. But, M cars dominated all sales, awards and raves.
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  #55  
Old 10-05-2012, 07:11 PM
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Maybe Chris Harris can add some perspective for some of the differing viewpoints in this thread.



I would have a tough time picking one of these cars over the other.
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  #56  
Old 10-05-2012, 07:32 PM
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Remember back in the day when AMG built cars which cannot turn.

Their cars had more power than M cars. But, M cars dominated all sales, awards and raves.
So is BMW now making "AMGs" and Cadillac is now making "M" cars?

What will the upcoming RS6 be? Hopefully the union of the M5 and the GT-R. Now only if they didn't have that @$%# pop-up NAV.
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  #57  
Old 10-05-2012, 08:15 PM
ksqrd ksqrd is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
So is BMW now making "AMGs" and Cadillac is now making "M" cars?

What will the upcoming RS6 be? Hopefully the union of the M5 and the GT-R. Now only if they didn't have that @$%# pop-up NAV.
Funny. That is the ONLY reason I refused to consider the Audi when shopping for my F10.
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  #58  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:42 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Maybe Chris Harris can add some perspective for some of the differing viewpoints in this thread.



I would have a tough time picking one of these cars over the other.
Look at what people do, not what that they say. CH stretched into a 100k GBP loan to buy a GT3 4.0 RS after having traded his former GT3 ( The finances were tough to swing so he now traded the 4.0 for a used 599 GTB ). So much for the talk of the "easy to live with" stuff. When it comes down to it seems that it's excitement and purity that counts for Mr Harris himself.

Here's his idea of a perfect Porsche. Not very plush and high tech.

Last edited by solstice; 10-06-2012 at 12:13 AM.
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  #59  
Old 10-06-2012, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bodonx View Post
Remember back in the day when AMG built cars which cannot turn.
So, the M5 did not have to turn at Nurburgring, just a straight dash
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  #60  
Old 10-06-2012, 03:20 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Due to this I usually put the DCT in auto mode as I begin to break hard from high speed and then go back to S mode after applying throttle in tight corners. Sweepers and high speed corners are all S mode. It becomes quite intuitive after a while. It's kind of like cheating and less engaging so I still miss an MT in these situations even if the DCT likely makes me quite a bit faster. And I do love the blips
Funny, post about turns and sportiness, but track times are irrelevant "All M models (including yours) are tested and tuned at BMW's private facility at the Nürburgring racing circuit in Germany." Porsche, maker of one of your dream cars, has a facility there too, I believe. Wonder why Porsche and true sports car manufacturers test their cars at tracks?

Well, if one is not happy with the Nurbrugring time, consider Sachsenring (at 1:38.90) which features the annual German motorcycle Grand Prix of the FIM Grand Prix motorcycle racing world championship

25. Porsche 911 Sport Classic 1:38.32 134 '10 408 / 0
26. Porsche 911 GT2 1:38.43 134 '03 483 / 1420
27. Porsche 911 Carrera 4S 1:38.56 134 '08 385 / 1485
28. BMW M3 CRT 1:38.87 134 '12 450 / 1566
29. Porsche Cayman R 1:38.90 134 '10 330 / 1320
30. BMW M5 1:38.90 134 '11 560 / 1870
31. Porsche 911 Carrera S 1:39.08 133 '08 385 / 1420

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/sachsenring.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsenring

ps a Golf GTI Mk1 may be good in the 70s and 80s, but it's now 2012

Last edited by bm323; 10-06-2012 at 05:11 AM.
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  #61  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:55 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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All manufacturers need time on the track to test how their cars functions and behaviour under all speeds and conditions in a controlled and reasonably safe environment. Track times are important to them since they are efficient marketing tools as some commenters in this thread clearly validates. Regarding posting about sporty driving, I like sporty driving in sporty cars. It' not the same as liking a car purely because it's fast and it that I can't like cars that aren't especially fast. Sportiness comes in many flavors, my preferred flavor has little to do with ring times.

Think about a car that is fully controlled by computers to always be in the perfect power band, always optimal timing of breaking, corner entry speed and cornering speed, perfect line etc, etc. It would post very fast track times with you in the back seat but would that be fun engaging driving? Then take a classic race or sports car from the 60s with no driver aids and modern tech and drive that a lap at the top of your abilities. Way slower but does that mean less or more of a sporty driving experience?

I believe that with the tech available today there is a point where making the car faster takes away from the fun instead of adding to it. Often that point is when adding tech and huge power instead of removing weight and tuning passive components is needed to find more speed.

Last edited by solstice; 10-06-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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  #62  
Old 10-06-2012, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Ridiculous review. What's even more ridiculous is that all of you assume its true, having never even driven the car.

I mean what makes this guy a more credible reviewer than Richard Hammond or Chris Harris?
My thoughts exactly.....
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  #63  
Old 10-06-2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 2008550I View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot
Ridiculous review. What's even more ridiculous is that all of you assume its true, having never even driven the car.

I mean what makes this guy a more credible reviewer than Richard Hammond or Chris Harris?.

My thoughts exactly.....
The difference is that when the aforementioned reviewers tested in isolation, the M5 was incedible, but when compared with respect to performance, comfort, price, etc. to other cars the new M5 has a tendancy to lose. IIRC, this wasn't the case for previous gen M5s, but I had always figured the manufacturer had incentivized them to pick their car - just as people are claiming now with all of the recent Audi wins.

1) Audi S6, 2) MB E63, 3) BMW M5 (Car & Driver)
1) Panamera GTS, 2) BMW M5 (MotorTrend)
1) Cadillac CTS-V, 2) BMW M5 (Road & Track)
1) BMW M550d, 2) BMW M5 (Autobild)
1) Cadillac CTS-V, 2) BMW M5 (InsideLine)
1) Jaguar XFR, 2) MB E63, 3) Alpina D5, 4) BMW M5, 5) Audi S7 (AutoCar)


I buy the car's that meet my needs and these reviews, whether thinly veiled puppet press releases or head-to-head comparos, all provide some background information as to what to look for when I drive the cars myself. Personally, I don't see any reason to bad mouth a reviewer if he happens to disagree with one's viewpoint. Stealth.Pilot provided his own comparison data as to why the M5 was the best car for "him," but I'm not going to call his review ridiculous because I would have had a different outcome in my personal selection. Everyone gets to have their own opinion.
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  #64  
Old 10-06-2012, 12:49 PM
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I have driven all of these cars too. Some of them on tracks. And I still rate the M5. The only one that comes close in my opinion is the CLS63. The choice of that it the M5 is a matter of taste.

But the XFR, Panamera GTS and CTS-V are poor competitors that I wouldn't consider of the same calibre.
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  #65  
Old 10-06-2012, 12:52 PM
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In the end it is all about the car a buyer likes best not an automotive journalist.
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  #66  
Old 10-06-2012, 07:45 PM
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In the end it is all about the car a buyer likes best not an automotive journalist.
+1

My current car is my first german sedan. Before even doing a test drive, I had been researching for months, and based on what I read, I was 95% sure I'd be getting an A6/A7 over the 5 series. Most of the articles I read were raving over the Audi's interior for example, that it was best in class. So I test drove the Audi and loved it (coming from an Acura). Then I tried the BMW. Guess what, I liked the interior a lot more. So really, every time I read these reviews I take them with a grain of salt.
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  #67  
Old 10-07-2012, 02:33 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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IIRC, this wasn't the case for previous gen M5s, but I had always figured the manufacturer had incentivized them to pick their car - just as people are claiming now with all of the recent Audi wins.
Not so eg
FIRST PLACE: 2009 Cadillac CTS-V
Glitzy exterior and cabin plus some finish issues detract from premium feel, but delivers where it counts. A Corvette ZR1 in four-door attire -- and a bargain to boot.

SECOND PLACE: 2009 E60 BMW M5
Masterfully executed, but priced accordingly. Handling not on par with BMW's best, though, and V-10 power no match for Caddy's supercharged V-8

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz28bZFIjUs

People who rely on reviews as the above should stick to Cadillac CTS-V!

This time, the CTS-V beating the E60 M5 and C63 AMG - http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/c...-benz-c63.html

Another http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co..._m5_smg_page_2

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
1) Audi S6, 2) MB E63, 3) BMW M5 (Car & Driver)
1) Panamera GTS, 2) BMW M5 (MotorTrend)
1) Cadillac CTS-V, 2) BMW M5 (Road & Track)
1) BMW M550d, 2) BMW M5 (Autobild)
1) Cadillac CTS-V, 2) BMW M5 (InsideLine)
1) Jaguar XFR, 2) MB E63, 3) Alpina D5, 4) BMW M5, 5) Audi S7 (AutoCar)
One needs to check the details for some of these eg
Road and Track: "In My Opinion
On the track, the Cadillac CTS-V hits all the right notes-good power, livelier chassis and steering feel. That is until you look at the lap times and realize that the BMW M5 is much faster, and achieves that speed in a more civilized manner. This is even more evident on the road, where the M5's ride is daily-commute friendly and the CTS-V beats you up a bit. My overall pick goes to the M5.
-Patrick Hong
Executive Editor
The M5 is the best-handling 7 Series BMW has ever made. Yeah, I know it's a 5 Series, but it's just so big, and soft, and comfortable and stomping fast. It's high-performance luxury at its pinnacle, and for that reason I'll take the CTS-V. It's a sports sedan like the previous-generation BMW M5, where driver interaction and enjoyment take precedence over passenger comfort and isolation.
-Shaun Bailey
Associate Engineering Editor"

---------

Autobild: Verdict:
The diesel M won because of its comfort and fine-tuning: great balance between sportiness and everyday usability. Less costs. The M5 is a first-class sportsaloon. http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/06/04/au...r-m5-a-diesel/

-----------------------

Autocar: "If you want the best all-round high-performance saloon the Jaguar XFR is the answer. It's the equal of the BMW M5 dynamically and for sheer performance; yet is far easier to live with day-to-day and far more compliant when you're not in the mood for maximum attack."

"Don't believe the rumour mill: BMW hasn't softened this car to the detriment of its ability to cope when really driven hard – either on a testing road or a circuit. True, there is surprising comfort, refinement and ease of use to be enjoyed with this car – a great deal more than you'll find in most 500bhp super-saloons.

That's the key advantage of BMW M's multi-mode suspension, steering and powertrain control systems. But thanks to the same systems, there's also breathtakingly firm damping and a highly responsive engine and gearbox when you select Sport+ mode. And – for anyone who's wondering – turbo lag isn't the slightest problem."

-----------------


ps I didn't manage to find the Insideline 2012 comparison on the web for 1) Cadillac CTS-V, 2) BMW M5 (InsideLine); not sure whether it's a mistake in that the review concerns the E60 as in the link above, not the F10.

and I have been disregarding Car & Driver for some time

Last edited by bm323; 10-07-2012 at 06:27 AM.
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  #68  
Old 10-07-2012, 05:40 AM
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BM323 - those are some good quotes.

It seems those who like the CTS-V like the old M5. Hammond nailed it when he said the problem with the old M5 was that you could not live with it. The new M5 is a better sports car on the track, but its also more friendly for day to day driving on the street.

Another analogy I might use is this: When the Infiniti G37 came out in 2002, it offered a more raw, more edgy, sportier alternative to the E46 330i. However back then most people who drive both preferred the 330i because it was more polished while delivering fantastic driving dynamics and performance. The balance of both is what made BMWs special. Now it seems reviewers want BMW to go and build a Porsche or a Ferrari. But that is to miss the genius of what BMW does.

BMWs M Cars have traditionally excelled in day to day real world driveability as well as on the track. The E60 M5 lost that. But it's back. And if you read the reviews of the E39 vs E60 M5s you would see that.

And to this day the E39 has been the best selling M5. However if the launch numbers from BMW are to be believed, the F10 M5 is crushing the first year sales numbers of the E60 M5 despite a weaker global economy. Here's a factoid - in the first month BMW sold 222 E60 M5s. The F10 M5 had only been out three weeks when the recall was announced and the recall had 489 sold customer cars on it.
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Last edited by Stealth.Pilot; 10-07-2012 at 05:48 AM.
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  #69  
Old 10-07-2012, 07:49 AM
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ps I didn't manage to find the Insideline 2012 comparison on the web for 1) Cadillac CTS-V, 2) BMW M5 (InsideLine); not sure whether it's a mistake in that the review concerns the E60 as in the link above, not the F10.
My bad, I misremembered that the Insideline article which this thread is based upon wasn't an actual comparo.

Here's Insideline's CTS-V references that helped fog my memory:

"For reference, that's 0.3 second quicker to 60 than the old V10-powered M5 mated to the SMG paddle-shift system, and 0.1 second quicker than a manual-equipped Cadillac CTS-V."

"At our test track, its average slalom speed of 68.9 mph is nothing to sneer at, but it's no better than the last M5 and a few mph slower than the CTS-V, which posted a 71.1-mph run."

"While transitional response hasn't improved, overall grip has, the M5 generating 0.93g around the skid pad versus the previous car's 0.88g and the Caddy's 0.92."

"That's just a grand more than the base price of a 2013 Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG but it's an incredible $26,000 more than a 556-hp 2013 Cadillac CTS-V."

"Oh, that's right, it's down the street at the Cadillac dealer. It's called the CTS-V."
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:42 AM
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I don't understand why people are comparing the CTS-V to the M5.

The CTS-V has no rear legroom. It is closer to an M3 in cabin space than an M5.

Motortrend's measurements are 36.1" rear leg room for CTS-V vs. 41.5" rear leg room for M5. That's a 5.4" difference in rear legroom and places the cars in a completely different category. I know from experience when I was shopping the CTS for my Dad, that I can't fit in the back of a CTS. My Dad actually passed on the CTS for that very reason. Even the M3 sedan has more rear leg room than the CTS-V.

Basically they are comparing Cadillac's M3 to BMWs M5 and saying the Cadillac is lighter and more agile. That's ridiculous as a comparison.

What's also interesting is that despite being a class-size smaller, and lighter, the CTS pulls fewer Gs on the skidpad than the M5.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:33 AM
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Richard Hammond? Top gear and BMW is a weird thing. When BMW built drivers cars they trashed them and now when they build luxo cruisers every BMW is the best car ever. When the Stig posts a poor lap with the new M5 there is no time to show it and it's not "interesting" anyway. Since when is lap times not interesting to them? Why even give it to the Stig if it's not interesting? Something smells here, I still enjoy Top Gear though but I don't trust them to be objective, government sponsored or not.

Anyway no one is accusing the M5 of being bad and there is no need for people who loves it to be offended. There are obviously more people that prefer these large techno overload cars but for us that prefer a purer more direct car these new cars is a huge disappointment. It's not what we want and not why we are attracted to BMW.
Still spouting the same drivel?
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  #72  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:40 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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I don't understand why people are comparing the CTS-V to the M5.
Only because the CTS-V trashed the M3 on the track. Caddy purposely built the car in between the 5 and 3 in terms of size to create a platform that could take on the M3. Then when the M5 beat the CTS-V on the same tracks the bickering started.

Going to be people complaining that the M whatever isn't a pure sports car; whether because they can't afford it, don't understand the concept of a sports sedan, gives them some relevance on some forum, have obviously no driving skill/experience, whatever.

So many people argue class boundaries to justify this or that car, but totally ignore them to trash a car.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:41 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Still spouting the same drivel?
Nice contribution to the thread.
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:02 AM
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Mein Auto: M6 F12
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Nice contribution to the thread.
For those that are new to the forums, yes it is.

Let's not forget two years ago, we can only assume that you bought your 535 sight unseen and had been in isolation for the previous year to expect that same 535 to be some exotic sports car capable of levels of driving excellence superior to anything out of BMW to date.

Yes you had mechanical issues, and everyone will give you that at some point you decided that your decision was wrong, and moved to a different car.

But two years of trashing a platform to cover your own embarrassing decision is more than enough.
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  #75  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:03 AM
dunderhi's Avatar
dunderhi dunderhi is online now
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,695
Mein Auto: '13 X5M, 650xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I don't understand why people are comparing the CTS-V to the M5.

The CTS-V has no rear legroom. It is closer to an M3 in cabin space than an M5.

Motortrend's measurements are 36.1" rear leg room for CTS-V vs. 41.5" rear leg room for M5. That's a 5.4" difference in rear legroom and places the cars in a completely different category. I know from experience when I was shopping the CTS for my Dad, that I can't fit in the back of a CTS. My Dad actually passed on the CTS for that very reason. Even the M3 sedan has more rear leg room than the CTS-V.

Basically they are comparing Cadillac's M3 to BMWs M5 and saying the Cadillac is lighter and more agile. That's ridiculous as a comparison.

What's also interesting is that despite being a class-size smaller, and lighter, the CTS pulls fewer Gs on the skidpad than the M5.
I just took at look at MotorTrends reviews and the M5's rear leg room is 36.1" and the CTS-V is 35.9".

2013 BMW M5 Test Specs
2009 Cadillac CTS-V Test Specs

That said, I have no interest whatsoever in the Caddy, but per Road & Track's consolidated test data sheet it's hard to find two cars that are more closely match in size and performance: M5 vs CTS-V Data Panel.

I see the Panamera and the BMW Gran Coupe as competitors and the CLS and A7 as competitors, but the mags feel they all should be compared togoether since they are all coupe-like. To me, comparing the Caddy to the M5 is like comparing the A7 to the Gran Coupe, but people insist on making these comparisons, but as I've been saying we are all entitled to our opinions and that we why see buyers cross-shopping 911s and 335s.
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Last edited by dunderhi; 10-07-2012 at 10:08 AM.
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