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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #101  
Old 10-07-2012, 06:39 PM
Schnell M Schnell M is online now
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Originally Posted by highyo View Post
i'm in the same boat. i don't think there can be a better car made than the m3 (and btw, many many many reviews will say the same thing). it feels like a bespoke suit
I owned an e92 M3 DCT for 2 1/2 years....and it was a great car. Having said that, by no means is it the best car made out there (IMO).

I went to a F10 550i M Sport 6spd because I was quite frankly fed up with the M3's ultimate lack of low end torque, somewhat harsh ride and terrible fuel economy.

I chose to go the Dinan Stage 3 path and save 25k, but the M5 is a great car for what it was meant to offer. It is not a track car. 99% of the people that choose to own this car are never going to come close to its limits on the street. If you dont like the steering, braking, sound or power delivery...dont buy it.

Just remember, opinions vary.
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  #102  
Old 10-07-2012, 06:47 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
In the CTS-V sedan commercial we got over here on TV Cadillac choose to name it's competitors. Spoiler, it's not the M3
Yes, in 2010 it blew away the E60 M5.
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  #103  
Old 10-07-2012, 07:05 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
Yes, in 2010 it blew away the E60 M5.
Yes, very cool of GM to invest in that and pull it off. To be fair it was the last MY of the M5 and BMW had no chance to respond. The ring is a track where you need big power for really fast times. The Caddy is supercharged if it was NA it would have been even more impressive. A supercharger on the E60 M5 would probably have restored order
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  #104  
Old 10-07-2012, 07:15 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
To be fair it was the last MY of the M5 and BMW had no chance to respond.
But BMW did respond, and were in process even then in 2010, it's called the F10 M5. Superior power, superior handling, even if you don't like the feel (or are unwilling to change with the times).

Feel is a very subjective thing, I mean even sex with an ugly fat woman 'feels' good (or so I am told). At least now with the F10 'feel' isn't the only advantage over the Cadillac.
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  #105  
Old 10-07-2012, 07:24 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The ring is a track where you need big power for really fast times.
If you are unfamiliar with it:



This is arguably the most popular most demanding and also longest track for road-car track-days, magazine tests, prototype testing and race events. Originally, the track featured four track configurations: the 28.265 km long Gesamtstrecke ("Whole Course"), which in turn consisted of the 22.810 km Nordschleife ("Northern Loop"), and the 7.747 km Sudschleife ("Southern Loop"). There also was a 2.281 km warm-up loop called Zielschleife, around the pits area. Between 1982 and 1983 the start-finish area was demolished to create a new GP-Strecke, and this is currently used for all major and international racing events. However, the Nordschleife is still in use; nicknamed The Green Hell by Jackie Stewart, it is widely considered the toughest and most demanding purpose-built race track in the world.

Last edited by tadtaggert; 10-07-2012 at 07:26 PM.
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  #106  
Old 10-07-2012, 08:00 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
But BMW did respond, and were in process even then in 2010, it's called the F10 M5. Superior power, superior handling, even if you don't like the feel (or are unwilling to change with the times).

Feel is a very subjective thing, I mean even sex with an ugly fat woman 'feels' good (or so I am told). At least now with the F10 'feel' isn't the only advantage over the Cadillac.
Again, these track times has no value for me when I rate a road car one way or the other neither has 0-60 times or quarter mile trap speeds. It's fun topics to discuss though. I'm from Europe and I like cars and bikes. I'm quite familiar with the ring. What brought us back to the ring was the commercial that imo debunks your claim that the CTS-V was created as an M3 competitor.

Last edited by solstice; 10-07-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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  #107  
Old 10-07-2012, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Anyway, when I get my car serviced I'll check to see if they have a demo M5 to drive, ...
Please do, I've been considering posting in several forums enquiring on the drive between the M5 and a F10 with suspension modified.
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  #108  
Old 10-07-2012, 08:13 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
What brought us back to the ring was the commercial that debunct your claim that the CTS-V was created as an M3 competitor.
So saying that it blew away an E60 M5 is how you determine what Cadillac consider's it's competition?

European marketing perception I guess. I really don't care who their competition is, that they list the M3 and RS4 on their current site is a bit telling, but the CTS-V did blow away the E60 M5 and the current M3.
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  #109  
Old 10-07-2012, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Again, these track times has no value for me when I rate a road car one way or the other neither has 0-60 times or quarter mile trap speeds.
So please enlighten me, I've been waiting 2 years to hear this. Tell us this impeccable rating system that led you to buy an F10 and then decide some months later that it failed you?
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  #110  
Old 10-07-2012, 08:46 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
So please enlighten me, I've been waiting 2 years to hear this. Tell us this impeccable rating system that led you to buy an F10 and then decide some months later that it failed you?
It wasn't complicated. I was shopping for a new mid-size sedan. I liked both my E39 and my E60 ( and the three other BMWs I owned in the past ) so I ordered the F10 on faith before you could drive one. I had gotten an offer on a new car too good to refuse from my dealer after they accidently damaged my E60 while at service. The F10 turned out to be a disappoinment to me of all the reasons we've discussed before. It was not related to the issues that luckily turned my car into a lemon. BMW was great in the procces and was eager to provide me with a car to my liking which they successfully did. And I never looked at ring times or any other M3 stats to decide it was a car for me, since it really doesn't matter.

Sorry to disappoint if you were looking for some elaborate system with formulas etc. The car needs to feel right that's about it in a nutshell. I.e a fully subjective scale with no place for track times. That's why peoples subjective input is more interresting to me as this insideline reviewer than a table of ring times.

Last edited by solstice; 10-07-2012 at 09:06 PM.
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  #111  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
I really don't care who their competition is, that they list the M3 and RS4 on their current site is a bit telling, but the CTS-V did blow away the E60 M5 and the current M3.
Did you follow the link cadillac.com I provided? Cadillac lists the competition as the M5 and the E63 for the 2013 CTS-V Sedan. Last year (or technical 2011 due to the early model year), when there wasn't a 2011/2 M5 sedan, so they listed the M3 and the E63 as the competition for the 2012 CTS-V Sedan.
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  #112  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:17 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Sorry to disappoint if you were looking for some elaborate system with formulas etc. The car needs to feel right that's about it in a nutshell. I.e a fully subjective scale with no place for track times. That's why peoples subjective input is more interresting to me as this insideline reviewer than a table of ring times.
You didn't disappoint me at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Btw I would not change back to the E60 if I had a choice since the F10 kicks it's butt in so many areas but these simple fundamental mistakes are still a bit hard to swallow.
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  #113  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:22 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Did you follow the link cadillac.com I provided? Cadillac lists the competition as the M5 and the E63 for the 2013 CTS-V Sedan. Last year (or technical 2011 due to the early model year), when there wasn't a 2011/2 M5 sedan, so they listed the M3 and the E63 as the competition for the 2012 CTS-V Sedan.
I'll have to admit I didn't look at your links, but did look at the current site and saw the M3 and RS4, does it choose from a pool? Perhaps when we have an M4 we can further muddy the issue. Regardless, for a daily driver I don't see driving the CTS-V, but then the F10 M5 would make a great choice; and has better performance.
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  #114  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:22 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
You didn't disappoint me at all.
Good to hear. And those fundamental issues turned from hard to swallow to get stuck in the throat. When I wrote that paragraph I was still trying my best to like the car and feel better about it. It failed and I'm sorry if that early statement lead anyone in the wrong direction. And I still think the F10 do kick the E60's butt in some areas just not the ones that really count to me.

Last edited by solstice; 10-07-2012 at 09:26 PM.
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  #115  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:26 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Good to hear. And those fundamental issues turned from hard to swallow to get stuck in the throat. When I wrote that paragraph I was still trying my best to like the car and feel better about it. It failed and I'm sorry if that early statement lead anyone in the wrong direction. And I still think the F10 do kick the E60's butt in some areas just not the ones that really count.
Believe me, you've more than demonstrated that you're not always completely honest, to yourself or others, when you write about cars.
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  #116  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:30 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Did you follow the link cadillac.com I provided? Cadillac lists the competition as the M5 and the E63 for the 2013 CTS-V Sedan. Last year (or technical 2011 due to the early model year), when there wasn't a 2011/2 M5 sedan, so they listed the M3 and the E63 as the competition for the 2012 CTS-V Sedan.
Ok, so I just went to the Cadillac site, again, and viewed the competition for the CTS-V Sedan, and it does indeed list an M5.

But, .... look closely, they are listing the E60 M5!
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  #117  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:36 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
Believe me, you've more than demonstrated that you're not always completely honest, to yourself or others, when you write about cars.
I.m flattered by all the interrest of my person, who is next up for analysis? You? Forget it, I'm not really interrested I'm here to discuss cars among car people not to dissect commenters crendentials, background, income, agendas or affiliations to any length. Sometimes it's interersting to know but when it starts to dominate a commenters posts I gracefully bow out so choose another target if you want more involved responses. I think I've played along with your crusade to discredit me long enough, no?

Last edited by solstice; 10-07-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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  #118  
Old 10-07-2012, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
Ok, so I just went to the Cadillac site, again, and viewed the competition for the CTS-V Sedan, and it does indeed list an M5.

But, .... look closely, they are listing the E60 M5!
Cadillac's competitor comparison for the CTS-V preselects both the F10 M5 and the W212 E63 AMG as the first two cars in the comparison.
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  #119  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:01 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I.m flattered by all the interrest of my person, who is next up for analysis? You? Forget it, I'm not really interrested I'm here to discuss cars among car people not to dissect commenters crendentials, background, income, agendas or affiliations to any length. Sometimes it's interersting to know but when it starts to dominate a commenters posts I gracefully bow out so choose another target if you want more involved responses. I think I've played along with your crusade to discredit me long enough, no?
If you think that I'm interested in you as a person or have in some way personally attacked you (or your credentials, background, income or affiliations) then you are mistaken. I've simply commented on your words that you chose to write.

I'm not the first or only person to comment on a perceived agenda you may have with the F10. If you don't like it a simple 'I don't like it' suffices, we all have our own opinions.
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  #120  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:04 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Cadillac's competitor comparison for the CTS-V preselects both the F10 M5 and the W212 E63 AMG as the first two cars in the comparison.
Since when does the F10 M5 have 414 HP at 8300 RPM or 295 torque?
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  #121  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:08 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
Since when does the F10 M5 have 414 HP at 8300 RPM or 295 torque?
The preselected BMW competitor is indeed the F10 M5, and Cadillac correctly lists the specs for the F10 M5.

http://www.cadillac.com/tools/compar...odel&year=2013

The specs you are posting are for the E92 M3, not the E60 M5 as you claimed above...
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Last edited by swajames; 10-07-2012 at 10:09 PM.
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  #122  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:11 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
The preselected BMW competitor is indeed the F10 M5, and Cadillac correctly lists the specs for the F10 M5.

The specs you are posting are for the E92 M3, not the E60 M5 as you claimed above...
I'm not debating what you're getting, I've gotten M5 once on the preselected, it was an E60. Going back to the site now I get 2011 BMW M MODELS 4DR SDN, which is the M3 and 2011 MERCEDES-BENZ E63 4DR SDN E63 AMG RWD.
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  #123  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:36 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Did you follow the link cadillac.com I provided? Cadillac lists the competition as the M5 and the E63 for the 2013 CTS-V Sedan. Last year (or technical 2011 due to the early model year), when there wasn't a 2011/2 M5 sedan, so they listed the M3 and the E63 as the competition for the 2012 CTS-V Sedan.
I'm pretty sure this is correct and why Cadillac has it listed as an M sedan not an M5 or M3. The CTS-V is created as a mid-size sedan to compete against the E63 AMG and the M5. When the M5 went out of production they still wanted to show it against an M car so they selected the only sedan left the M3. Now the M5 is back and it's now the first choice. Benz has had the C and E class at the same time and this is where you can see more clearly that it's the larger of the two sedans that is the primary target of the CTS-V. On top of that you have the CTS-V commercial that name only two competitors the E63 and the M5.

Last edited by solstice; 10-07-2012 at 10:38 PM.
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  #124  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:39 PM
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Doesn't matter who Cadillac lists as the competitor. It is a smaller car with barely usable rear seating.

BMW should list the Bentley Continental Flying Spur as the M5s competitor to set up a favorable review too.
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  #125  
Old 10-08-2012, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
I'm not debating what you're getting, I've gotten M5 once on the preselected, it was an E60. Going back to the site now I get 2011 BMW M MODELS 4DR SDN, which is the M3 and 2011 MERCEDES-BENZ E63 4DR SDN E63 AMG RWD.
There's an issue with the hyperlinks at cadillac.com and how you get to the comparison page. If you check out the address you will see the for the 2013 CTS-V it is the 2013 F10 M5 (560hp) and the 2013 E63(518hp). If you are comparing the 2012 CTS-V it gives you the 2011 M3 (414hp) and the 2011 E63 (518hp). I get the same comparison cars regardless of the zip code I submit or the computer I use.
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