E90 loaner... I really miss my F30

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

My e92 M3 has got nothing on your F30 335i. The F30 is Gods gift to man. Another annoyance I have is the 328 sounds like a diesel truck. BMW couldn't refine that engine noise? The F30 has strayed away from what BMW use to call 'performance'. It's a granny mobile. It may still be nice to drive, but it's lost it's responsiveness. This is a trend with ever since the F01 came out. BMW has fallen last in each of it's respective categories that it's been compared in. It's sad to see.

Hey, I have an idea.

Why don't you buy the last year of an eight-year-old body style and drive it for 3 years after it's discontinued? That should certainly make you feel better, right?

BJ

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Not only do I "like" my optioned out F30 more. It drives better too which shouldn't have a lot to do with options.

Hey no worries, it's all good. I was just teasing.

I have yet to test drive an F30. The front snount seems over large to me, but from what I gather that is due more to EU pedestrian impact standards than styling. Otherwise I'm sure it's a nice car. Not quite sure I can get to a turbo 4 banger, at least in the first year of production in the states. We will see how they last over time and whether or not there is a lurking HPFP issue awaiting buyers.

For sure BMW is listening to their target market. If the buyers in focus groups and follow up surveys are looking for more gizmos, features and sheer HP (not to mention size, and let's face it, comfort) than the competition, you can hardly blame them for keeping up. It's all about the almighty dollar/Euro/yen these days anyways...

Fortunately, for knuckle-dragging mouth breathers like me, the heart of BMW still beats on in the form of the S65B40 4.0L, 90 degree V8 that revs to 8,000+ RPM equipped with a six speed, manual-freaking-transmission that God und Baron von Falkenhausen intended.

Carry on.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

All I know is that the steering difference between the E90 and the F30, even when the F30 is in sport mode is quite palpable and especially noticeable when doing, as you suggest "parking lot maneuvers" but is even noticeable during 75-80mph highway cruising. Does that mean that I have lost the way and am not a real BMW fan? Maybe. Do I care? No. Just reporting my observations and if it ruffles feathers than that's a tough break for those who take such things personally.

I don't equate steering heft with road feel or steering capability. The F30 is very very tossable on the right roads and there is plenty of road feel, especially with the reasonably priced adaptive setup. If anything, the weight of the E90 steering is a bit distracting compared to what I am used to with the F30... as someone else pointed out, it almost feels like the power steering pump is broken.

As to other comments. This loaner is a 2011 328i... the pinnacle of E90 technology as it would have all possible refinements that arrived for that platform. By comparison my F30 is a 2013, basically wet behind the years and waiting for refinement to happen over time. E90 has 6000 miles and F30 has 2000 miles. Fair game I say.

There's not much difference between a 2011 E90 and a 2007 E90. The LCI in 2009 was cosmetic and in 2011 it seems the suspension was fixed to be less abrupt. I wouldn't expect major tangible changes to the F30 over the years except hopefully a software change to recalibrate the EPS.

Remember you are coming to a BMW 3 series enthusiasts site and complaining about the steering on the E90 which has been nearly universally praised as the best available next to Porsche and probably the Miata. I find the E90 steering to be superb and once you get used to the heavier than normal tuning it's absolutely wonderful for a car that is truly a great sport sedan.

I'm sure the F30 is more refined and "grown up" but that's exactly what bothers enthusiasts and is the reason that Car and Driver is sure the E90 would beat it in a comparison test. Yet it still beats all comers which makes it a great all around car.

A few more comments. While I do find the E90 interior to be spartan, it's still well designed and the materials are first class. I don't mind the regular steering wheel in my non-Sport 328 but of course would prefer the sport wheel. As far as quietness goes, I've never once thought the car to be loud and it's great on a long trip. The best upgrade from the E90 is the wonderful ZF 8 speed AT. My car by the way has a MT which is much nicer than the BMW tuned GM tranny.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Hey, I have an idea.

Why don't you buy the last year of an eight-year-old body style and drive it for 3 years after it's discontinued? That should certainly make you feel better, right?

BJ

Technically, it's still the 'current' body style and will be till 2015 rolls around.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Technically, it's still the 'current' body style and will be till 2015 rolls around.

Just joking, of course.

Great car, enjoy.

BJ

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Technically, it's still the 'current' body style and will be till 2015 rolls around.

M3 has nothing to apologize for.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

There's not much difference between a 2011 E90 and a 2007 E90. The LCI in 2009 was cosmetic and in 2011 it seems the suspension was fixed to be less abrupt. I wouldn't expect major tangible changes to the F30 over the years except hopefully a software change to recalibrate the EPS.

Remember you are coming to a BMW 3 series enthusiasts site and complaining about the steering on the E90 which has been nearly universally praised as the best available next to Porsche and probably the Miata. I find the E90 steering to be superb and once you get used to the heavier than normal tuning it's absolutely wonderful for a car that is truly a great sport sedan.

I'm sure the F30 is more refined and "grown up" but that's exactly what bothers enthusiasts and is the reason that Car and Driver is sure the E90 would beat it in a comparison test. Yet it still beats all comers which makes it a great all around car.

A few more comments. While I do find the E90 interior to be spartan, it's still well designed and the materials are first class. I don't mind the regular steering wheel in my non-Sport 328 but of course would prefer the sport wheel. As far as quietness goes, I've never once thought the car to be loud and it's great on a long trip. The best upgrade from the E90 is the wonderful ZF 8 speed AT. My car by the way has a MT which is much nicer than the BMW tuned GM tranny.

I have yet to drive an F30 but suspect that it is evolutionary rather than a "Quantum Leap". From all reviews it is a very good car and I suspect that it will sell very well and the vast majority of the people who purchase it will be satisfied customers.

I just read a 328 comparo against the Cadillac ATS in the new Road and Track. R&T gave the victory to the 328 while stating that the ATS outperformed it on the skidpad and slalom. (I will interject here and say that I think that it is rather remarkable how close Cadillac has come in its first attempt against a car that has been being developed for close to 50 years.)

I think what R&D says about the 3 Series sums up the way I feel about cars, or in particular road cars. At the limits the Cadillac outperformed the BMW. But how often do we drive at the limits? I am sure there are some reading this who will say they drive at the limits (and perhaps a few have, but for the vast majority making that claim a few laps around a track as a passenger with a professional race driver at the wheel will knock that notion out of their heads pretty quickly).

I do not purchase cars to "Race Soccer Moms in School Zones" or to drive like a maniac on twisty roads (sorry BJ). I want a car that gives me the "feel" and enjoyment that I want along with giving me comfort while performing the task that I use a car for, which is getting from one place to another. If I want to play race car driver I have an outlet for that.

You do not have to be at the limits to appreciate a well balanced good handling car. Most modern cars (yes even the Accords and Camrys we are so fond of dumping on here) are very capable of being driven well above the speed limit.

So most of the time we are either driving at the speed limit or a bit above it. What separates the good from the bad in that scenario is the way the car feels while we are doing that. A 328i with standard suspension does not feel the same as a 335i with sport suspension even when they are both being driven at conservative speeds. Both good cars, each with its own advantages but they feel different. A more extreme example would be a Camry, which while perfectly capable of safely cruising at a steady 75 miles per hour on an interstate, does not feel the same as a BMW 750. Both will safely get you where you are going in comfort but the experience is not the same.

My 335i, in its stock form was supposedly a luxury sport coupe (or convertible in my case). As it turned out without some work it left something to be desired in both categories. It was way to harsh to qualify as a luxury car and too skittish over bumps to be a particularly good sports car. If the F30 gave up a bit of the "engaging" feel of the E9x to eliminate the harshness, then I think that a lot of people would be happy with that.

I personally want the best of both worlds, and I know from experience that I can have it. BMW did not give it to me on the E93 and if they cannot give it to me on the F30 I will be looking elsewhere. I was able to get the 335i where I wanted it, but frankly I want the car that replaces it to be the way I want it the day I take it home, not after two years of torture, research and experimenation.

To be continued after I test drive an F30 . . . . . and before I decide to purchase one it is going to be an EXTENSIVE test drive like the one I had with the 750 not like the 15 minute test drive I had in a 335i.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I have yet to drive an F30 but suspect that it is evolutionary rather than a "Quantum Leap". From all reviews it is a very good car and I suspect that it will sell very well and the vast majority of the people who purchase it will be satisfied customers.

I just read a 328 comparo against the Cadillac ATS in the new Road and Track...

CA

The "quantum leap" doesn't come from enthusiasts because that's not where the leap takes place.

The F30 has amazing "wow" appeal to the typical daily 328i driver from it's larger size, wider stance, fresh styling, lengthy standard options, adjustable performance settings, softer ride, lighter steering, mind-blowing technology, and rocket-fuel acceleration. It's simply the most comfortable 3 Series ever, a welcome relief from the harsh E90 and it's predecessors. People who sit in my car and see all it can do marvel at the toys, drool over the interior styling, adore the big wheels, love the deep glossy paint. It still outhandles other cars in its class, just not built for the track anymore.

It's the iPhone to the Blackberry. It's bigger, it's heavier, but boy does it do a hell of a lot more and look great while it's doing it.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The "quantum leap" doesn't come from enthusiasts because that's not where the leap takes place.

The F30 has amazing "wow" appeal to the typical daily 328i driver from it's larger size, wider stance, fresh styling, lengthy standard options, adjustable performance settings, softer ride, lighter steering, mind-blowing technology, and rocket-fuel acceleration. It's simply the most comfortable 3 Series ever, a welcome relief from the harsh E90 and it's predecessors. People who sit in my car and see all it can do marvel at the toys, drool over the interior styling, adore the big wheels, love the deep glossy paint. It still outhandles other cars in its class, just not built for the track anymore.

It's the iPhone to the Blackberry. It's bigger, it's heavier, but boy does it do a hell of a lot more and look great while it's doing it.

BJ

Without trying to sound like I am knocking the F30 (which I am not) I will stand by my statement that it is evolutionary. Probably more like the iPhone 5 to the iPhone 4.

The E90 was not built for the track and was not a particualy good track car but good be a lot of fun on a track day. I suspect the same holds true for the F30.


CA

I've quite an opposite experience regarding F30. While my E90 was in the shop for SRC mixer recall & software reset, my dealer provided F30 328i loaner for 9 days. Firstly, I've to say BMW really does an excellent job on F30's suspension especially when driving on city streets & cruising around town. In fact, that's my favorite memory of F30. However, I still prefer E90's suspension when cruising on interstate highways. E90 provides firmer ride & more feedback.

Now, my least favorite feature of F30 is its steering. Again, I'm not here to re-start the flame. I am simply saying that steering can be "light" & "heavy", the most important job of steering unit (in my opinion) is to provide additional feedback. There is no dispute, F30's EPS unit is on the lighter side whereas E90's HPS has a heavy feel to it. My problem with F30's EPS is not really about the "lightness" , rather it is about the numbness. The best I can describe this sensation is like letting a blind man driving an E90 and he will be able to tell which side of the wheel is running over the uneven surface or potholes. On the other hand, it will make it much difficult for him to differentiate such sensation while driving F30.

Before F30 fanboys start chastising me, please comprehend I have nothing against heavy or light steering. I do have problem with numb steering especially that's the reason I order a BMW and not Lexus. If BMW is going down the road to make EPS unit default on most vehicles, please make an effort to improve liveliness. Due to the nature of EPS design versus HPS, it is very difficult to duplicate "hydrualic damping" effect. It is not entirely impossible because I recently test drove 2013 Boxster & Porsche nails it right. That's some well-designed EPS unit. Although it feels lighter than E90's HPS, it is lively and no numbness. I dream of such an unit in upcoming M3.

The saving in fuel consumption isn't much in reality when HPS is replaced by EPS. BMW is smart to not muddy the waters when they introduce F10 M5 + F12/13 M6. They went back to HPS unit for M cars even thought EPS are readily available.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Without trying to sound like I am knocking the F30 (which I am not) I will stand by my statement that it is evolutionary. Probably more like the iPhone 5 to the iPhone 4.

The E90 was not built for the track and was not a particualy good track car but good be a lot of fun on a track day. I suspect the same holds true for the F30.

CA

My prediction? You will either...

1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.

2. Hate the car because it's further away from the E36 than it's ever been.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

My prediction? You will either...

1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.

2. Hate the car because it's further away from the E36 than it's ever been.

BJ

1. I have absolutely no interest in a Baby 7.

2. I seriously doubt that I would hate it as it is from all indications a very good car. I never drove an E36 or an E46 and while they were being produced had no interest in owning a BMW.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Just joking, of course.

Great car, enjoy.

BJ

Thank you. Now if the stupid boat would land....

BJ, change those wheels. They're an eye sore.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

So true. Yep, calling it like I see it.

Based on what experience?

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Thank you. Now if the stupid boat would land....

An M3 is fun in the winter. Imagine all the drifting you can do.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

BJ, change those wheels. They're an eye sore.

I love 'em.

BJ

Originally Posted by tturedraider

OK. Was it the type of suspension or the poor quality of the roads? Was the suspension well sorted for the quality of the roads in Florida?

Perhaps the early generation run flats were also partly to blame

Originally Posted by samualcc

Same experience. I had my F30 in for service and they gave me a 2011 E90 loaner. About the only things I enjoyed about it was the engine note (classic BMW) and MAYBE a more connected steering wheel. Otherwise the inside is just awful compared to the F30

It was also awful compared to the competition. Frankly, every time I see an E90 (dozens a day), it looks so dated and so tiny, tiny like an older Civic. The coupe looks fresher. I sat in a black on black sedan and I was not impressed one bit. In that sense, the new 3 at least looks and feels expensive.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The comments about heavy steering in the E90 are leaving me scratching my head. I never found the steering in my 2007 35i to be heavy and neither did my wife and we both frequently drive other cars.

Most folks here haven't even driven a car without power steering I once took over driving a friend's large pickup truck without power steering on some serious twisties. Now that's heavy steering

Of course I hated the stock sport suspension on my E9x and others have no issue with it at all so who's to say?

The consensus seemed to me that if you were going to drive a lot on city roads, the E9x was best bought without the sport package.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

An M3 is fun in the winter. Imagine all the drifting you can do.






I love 'em.

BJ

In that case, enjoy in good health.

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

The F30 is a great all around car and an improvement over the E90 making it easier to appeal to a broader customer base. Personally I think it lost a lot of what made BMW great and I also feel the same about the F10 5 series. The F30 is more of a luxury sedan than a sport sedan.

I bet BMW bean counters have been steaming red for a long time watching lots of people buy Lexus & Co. I personally know many people who have expressed dislike for their German luxury car and hoped onto softer riding Lexus models. I even know people who have said "I don't want to feel the road," I want to be shielded from it.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

My prediction? You will either...

1. Love the car because it's a Baby 7, a smaller/tighter version of the flagship luxury comfort sedan.

That's the F10. It's a pig. A boat. You pick. Even Consumer Reports expressed disgust. Thankfully, the 3 seems to have escaped the piggyfication.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's simply the most comfortable 3 Series ever, a welcome relief from the harsh E90 and it's predecessors.

But obviously it came at a price. You now want to tighten the handling.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

That's the F10. It's a pig. A boat. You pick. Even Consumer Reports expressed disgust. Thankfully, the 3 seems to have escaped the piggyfication.

Yes, I dislike the F10. Got a loaner, hated it. It's huge.

BJ

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I think what R&D says about the 3 Series sums up the way I feel about cars, or in particular road cars. At the limits the Cadillac outperformed the BMW. But how often do we drive at the limits? I am sure there are some reading this who will say they drive at the limits (and perhaps a few have, but for the vast majority making that claim a few laps around a track as a passenger with a professional race driver at the wheel will knock that notion out of their heads pretty quickly).[

This has always been my argument when discussing AWD versus RWD.