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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #201  
Old 10-12-2012, 06:10 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
You're mistaken, mate. He said at 5:35 that the M5 started off as "a thinly disguised race car"; not that the F10 M5 is different from the E60 M5 (or previous M5s) in this regard. His point is that the F10 M5 is different from previous ones in that it is now turbo, it is 2 cars in one, and that BMW has not lost it
The M5 was never a thinly disguised race car. My father shopped for and almost bought an E38 535, but it was too expensive at the time, and he hated the 528 for being slow (sound familliar?). He ended up with an Audi 5000S Turbo but I digress....

The dealer at the time, Wide World of cars, had an M5 there. I sat in it and was given a ride in it. At no time did I think "race car". It was more luxurious than even a loaded 535!
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  #202  
Old 10-12-2012, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
The M5 was never a thinly disguised race car. My father shopped for and almost bought an E38 535, but it was too expensive at the time, and he hated the 528 for being slow (sound familliar?). He ended up with an Audi 5000S Turbo but I digress....

The dealer at the time, Wide World of cars, had an M5 there. I sat in it and was given a ride in it. At no time did I think "race car". It was more luxurious than even a loaded 535!
Mate, you may well be right, but the point of discussion was Ignition's video you are therefore effectively disagreeing with solstice on the issue

Last edited by bm323; 10-12-2012 at 06:53 AM.
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  #203  
Old 10-12-2012, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Mate, you may well be right, but the point of discussion was Ignition's video you are therefore effectively disagreeing with solstice on the issue
Well, the reviewer is wrong. The M3 has always been about being a thinly disguised race car. The M5, never. It's always meant to be the ultimate gentleman's express. A car to use everyday that can dominate the autobahn, be engaging to drive, and can be brought to the track for a little fun.

The E60 was more like a big M3. And that was too far from the design brief of the M5. The issues with the E60 M5 were that the tremendous thirst and sub 200 mile range meant the car could not be effectively used as a daily driver unless it was around town. And the SMG was just a disaster for being a daily driver. Again, compromises that might be acceptable in the M3 but not in the M5.

To me, the F10 M5 returns to the stated mission brief of the M5.

The M3 is another story. The original M3 WAS born of racing, remember it was a homologation special. And apart from the weak sauce E36 M3, which happens to be a great driver's car, but is more along the lines of a ZHP package than a true M Car IMO, the M3 was and continues to be taut and high strung. I am hoping (and believing, honestly) that the F80 will continue that clenched fist aggression. I have been impressed with the F30 chassis and expect the new M3/4 to be a winner.
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  #204  
Old 10-12-2012, 07:48 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Whatever you want to call it the new M5 is a bigger, heavier and more luxurious and more isolated car than the earlier iterations. Like the non M cars it's now close to the size of the old 7 series. All reviewers pickup on this, some see it as welcome progress some don't. It does not seem that they disagree on how the car drives, just if they like the change or not, as they guy says, it's good in a different way, so he likes both concepts while the insideline's guy prefers the old way.

Last edited by solstice; 10-12-2012 at 07:50 AM.
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  #205  
Old 10-12-2012, 07:54 AM
highyo highyo is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Well, the reviewer is wrong. The M3 has always been about being a thinly disguised race car. The M5, never. It's always meant to be the ultimate gentleman's express. A car to use everyday that can dominate the autobahn, be engaging to drive, and can be brought to the track for a little fun.

The E60 was more like a big M3. And that was too far from the design brief of the M5. The issues with the E60 M5 were that the tremendous thirst and sub 200 mile range meant the car could not be effectively used as a daily driver unless it was around town. And the SMG was just a disaster for being a daily driver. Again, compromises that might be acceptable in the M3 but not in the M5.

To me, the F10 M5 returns to the stated mission brief of the M5.

The M3 is another story. The original M3 WAS born of racing, remember it was a homologation special. And apart from the weak sauce E36 M3, which happens to be a great driver's car, but is more along the lines of a ZHP package than a true M Car IMO, the M3 was and continues to be taut and high strung. I am hoping (and believing, honestly) that the F80 will continue that clenched fist aggression. I have been impressed with the F30 chassis and expect the new M3/4 to be a winner.
i beg to differ. and this is OUR chief gripe about the f10 M5. it WAS supposed to be a thinky desguised race car. and it so isnt anymore. you're all right, i haven't driven it. and i am sure i will love it. but is the f10 m5 a bigger leap from the previous generation than any other m car?

could be....
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Last edited by highyo; 10-12-2012 at 07:57 AM.
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  #206  
Old 10-12-2012, 09:49 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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i beg to differ. and this is OUR chief gripe about the f10 M5. it WAS supposed to be a thinky desguised race car. and it so isnt anymore. you're all right, i haven't driven it. and i am sure i will love it. but is the f10 m5 a bigger leap from the previous generation than any other m car?

could be....
Yes, all M cars I've driven have that feel of a contained race horse. Some hide much of their true nature in the exterior but not from the driver's seat. They can do slow and easy very well but there is some huffing and puffing in the background and a few jolts here and there always reminding you that it's a thorough bread. I like that.
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  #207  
Old 10-12-2012, 11:14 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Well, the reviewer is wrong. The M3 has always been about being a thinly disguised race car. The M5, never. It's always meant to be the ultimate gentleman's express. A car to use everyday that can dominate the autobahn, be engaging to drive, and can be brought to the track for a little fun.

The E60 was more like a big M3. And that was too far from the design brief of the M5. The issues with the E60 M5 were that the tremendous thirst and sub 200 mile range meant the car could not be effectively used as a daily driver unless it was around town. And the SMG was just a disaster for being a daily driver. Again, compromises that might be acceptable in the M3 but not in the M5.

To me, the F10 M5 returns to the stated mission brief of the M5.

The M3 is another story. The original M3 WAS born of racing, remember it was a homologation special. And apart from the weak sauce E36 M3, which happens to be a great driver's car, but is more along the lines of a ZHP package than a true M Car IMO, the M3 was and continues to be taut and high strung. I am hoping (and believing, honestly) that the F80 will continue that clenched fist aggression. I have been impressed with the F30 chassis and expect the new M3/4 to be a winner.
I agree completely with the statements in bold. You may remember me saying that I was leaning toward the Panny S and E63AMG before the M5 came out. Your comments are exactly why. The E60 M5 was a bigger M3 and I sold my M3 since I found it to be a difficult daily driver. The F10 M5 is very comparable to the Panny and the AMG cars in that it is easy to drive and is extremely comfortable. If you want to make it more aggressive you just change the settings and boom it turns into a big M3. The settings are the secret to the F10. You can make it feel much like the E60 (without the dreaded gear slams from the SMG) or you can make it feel pretty close to a 550i M sport. Stealth is right when he says the F10 M5 is one of the best cars around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Whatever you want to call it the new M5 is a bigger, heavier and more luxurious and more isolated car than the earlier iterations. Like the non M cars it's now close to the size of the old 7 series. All reviewers pickup on this, some see it as welcome progress some don't. It does not seem that they disagree on how the car drives, just if they like the change or not, as they guy says, it's good in a different way, so he likes both concepts while the insideline's guy prefers the old way.
True. I like the new concept better myself and was never really a fan of the E60 M5. I always thought the E60 was too harsh for a daily driver and if I wanted a car that harsh I would pick the M3 since its size was more suitable for that type of feel.

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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Yes, all M cars I've driven have that feel of a contained race horse. Some hide much of their true nature in the exterior but not from the driver's seat. They can do slow and easy very well but there is some huffing and puffing in the background and a few jolts here and there always reminding you that it's a thorough bread. I like that.
No worries. The F10 still does all of that. You just have to get the settings right. It takes some time to figure out and a quick test drive loop will not show you this. It took me driving the car for 3 hours on the track/autocross and playing with various settings to realize how great this car is.
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  #208  
Old 10-12-2012, 12:07 PM
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"I always thought the E60 was too harsh for a daily driver"
This tells me that our preferences differs and that our view of the M5 probably will as well. I never thought the E60 or the M3 are even remotely too harsch as daily drivers. They are taut and communicative but not harsh IMO. And therein lies a lot of the M and BMW magic to me, in how they are able to create such communicative and taut cars that aren't harsh. To manage all three isn't easy, the Audi S4 as an example is taut and not harsh but it's not very communicative, it's too smooth and isolated which was obvious driving it back to back with even a non sport E60 xi.

Last edited by solstice; 10-12-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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  #209  
Old 10-12-2012, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
"I always thought the E60 was too harsh for a daily driver"
This tells me that our preferences differs and that our view of the M5 probably will as well. I never thought the E60 or the M3 are even remotely too harsch as daily drivers. They are taut and communicative but not harsh IMO. And therein lies a lot of the M and BMW magic to me, in how they are able to create such communicative and taut cars that aren't harsh.
Honestly I prefer harshness to poor handling example I don't feel near as confident in the 335i AWD as I did pushing the x6 with TV... So I can get why if you'd have that feeling about ride quality it could be a turn off. At the same time it isn't so bad that its worth totally discounting its awesomeness (not saying you are)

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  #210  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:29 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
"I always thought the E60 was too harsh for a daily driver"
This tells me that our preferences differs and that our view of the M5 probably will as well. I never thought the E60 or the M3 are even remotely too harsch as daily drivers. They are taut and communicative but not harsh IMO. And therein lies a lot of the M and BMW magic to me, in how they are able to create such communicative and taut cars that aren't harsh. To manage all three isn't easy, the Audi S4 as an example is taut and not harsh but it's not very communicative, it's too smooth and isolated which was obvious driving it back to back with even a non sport E60 xi.
I believe Alpine300ZHP was referring to the E60 M5, not a E60 non M (likewise the F10 M5 later in his post, as he is comparing the two M5s in his post). Which turbo E60 did you own?

Last edited by bm323; 10-12-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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  #211  
Old 10-12-2012, 06:05 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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I believe Alpine300ZHP was referring to the E60 M5, not a E60 non M. Which turbo E60 did you own?
Doesn't matter, they are all great drives from the 528 non sport to the M5, non is harsch. And yes, I've driven the whole range. Well at least the E60s available in the US.
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  #212  
Old 10-12-2012, 07:02 PM
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Time to stop arguing about the M5, there's a another controversial M car just around the corner.



A CF roof and more power might make this car even more interesting.
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  #213  
Old 10-12-2012, 07:45 PM
smashhell smashhell is offline
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Time to stop arguing about the M5, there's a another controversial M car just around the corner.



A CF roof and more power might make this car even more interesting.
First of all I believe the M6GC will not have more power.
There is no reason for BMW to make the car any different than M5.
They pretty much serve the same purpose.

I'll say The one M car to look forward to is the "M1/M10" (which BMW just patented)
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  #214  
Old 10-12-2012, 09:10 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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First of all I believe the M6GC will not have more power.
There is no reason for BMW to make the car any different than M5.
They pretty much serve the same purpose.

I'll say The one M car to look forward to is the "M1/M10" (which BMW just patented)
Not long ago there was one M car above 4200 lbs, the M6 vert. With this M6GC there will be no less than 6 and only two below whereof one is a vert. Is that a good evolvement of M cars? You can't help but guessing that the aim has shifted from building bad @ss enthusiasts cars to "follow the money" to some extent.

Last edited by solstice; 10-12-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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  #215  
Old 10-12-2012, 11:45 PM
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Not long ago there was one M car above 4200 lbs, the M6 vert. With this M6GC there will be no less than 6 and only two below whereof one is a vert. Is that a good evolvement of M cars? You can't help but guessing that the aim has shifted from building bad @ss enthusiasts cars to "follow the money" to some extent.
You've just hit the nail on the head right there. My friends and I were talking about this at work today too. Sucks that every car in BMWs lineup is getting the American Makeover (ie getting bigger and bigger every year). I understand the need to offer comparable products as Audi and Mercedes, but it'd be nice if they could lighten the //M division and not forget their roots completely.
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  #216  
Old 10-13-2012, 01:29 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Not long ago there was one M car above 4200 lbs, the M6 vert. With this M6GC there will be no less than 6 and only two below whereof one is a vert. Is that a good evolvement of M cars? You can't help but guessing that the aim has shifted from building bad @ss enthusiasts cars to "follow the money" to some extent.
4.2 k is the magic number - 4.1 is the E60 M5 and 4.3 is the F10 M5 Given the higher safety of the F10, I'll take the F10 the options+, the body/looks+ and internal+

... should have gotten the 1 M 300 lbs lighter, effectively a big, big difference for a lighter car

"Current generation M3 is the least sporty of the bunch

The current generation M3 sounds a lot less impressive in comparison. You could get in and drive without the engine noise disturbing the interior ambiance. The downside is that the M3's soundtrack won't ever excite you either. Of course, this can all be ***64257;xed by resorting to aftermarket tuning. The previous M3 we drove had been ***64257;tted with an Eisenmann exhaust system which made the car sound much better.

What an aftermarket exhaust system cannot change however is the character of the car. In this lineup of M cars, the E92 feels the least sporty car out of all. It is the heaviest, has the longest wheelbase and the most comfortable suspension setup. We love the looks of this M3, but in terms of sheer driving fun, it cannot keep up with the other Ms here.In the end, the BMW 1M is a fantastic piece of machinery. The suspension comes from the M3 and is clearly much better than the Z4's, but the setup BMW has given the 1 M is much more focused and sportier than the M3, which makes the 1M the choice for people who won't settle for less than the best as far as handling is concerned. The 'normal' BMW engine doesn't disappoint either, especially if you push the M-button on the steering wheel. ...

In the end, the BMW 1M is a fantastic piece of machinery. The suspension comes from the M3 and is clearly much better than the Z4's, but the setup BMW has given the 1 M is much more focused and sportier than the M3, which makes the 1M the choice for people who won't settle for less than the best as far as handling is concerned. The 'normal' BMW engine doesn't disappoint either, especially if you push the M-button on the steering wheel.

The 1M makes you feel like a rally driver. On the exit of every corner, there is more than enough push to kick the tail out and the car makes you feel like it wants nothing more than to take every corner as sideways as the drivers dares to push."

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Last edited by bm323; 10-13-2012 at 03:02 AM.
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  #217  
Old 10-13-2012, 06:50 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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Not long ago there was one M car above 4200 lbs, the M6 vert. With this M6GC there will be no less than 6 and only two below whereof one is a vert. Is that a good evolvement of M cars? You can't help but guessing that the aim has shifted from building bad @ss enthusiasts cars to "follow the money" to some extent.
I don't know why they're doing it, but the babysitting technology is outpacing physics at the moment, so until physics catches up, I don't see why they couldn't make them even heavier. Eventually though I think we all know either due to environmental restrictions, lack of material for parts, it will change.
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  #218  
Old 10-13-2012, 07:49 AM
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I will admit I was really disappionted when BMW announced it was abandoning the aluminum front chassis in favor of a cheaper all steel chassis on the F10. People back then raised weight concerns before we knew the actual numbers. The M5 weight gain is now a matter of fact and it is 375lbs (curb weight: 4012lbs vs 4387lbs) heavier than a car that people already complained was already too heavy! Hopefully, the next generation of fiver will join the weight-loss trend that is currently going strong in the SUV community. As Solstice recently pointed out, the Porsche Cayenne & VW Toureg each lost about 400lbs in their last redesign, but the list doesn't stop there. Other examples of SUV redesigns: the Hyundai Sante Fe lost 266lbs, the Nissan Pathfinder lost 500lbs, and the Range Rover lost a whooping 700lbs! Here's hoping for the future.
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  #219  
Old 10-13-2012, 07:52 AM
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Time to stop arguing about the M5, there's a another controversial M car just around the corner.



A CF roof and more power might make this car even more interesting.
Words can't describe how awesome that looks. Too bad it will overpriced like the whole 6GC lineup
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  #220  
Old 10-13-2012, 09:12 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/09/2...-review-video/
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  #221  
Old 10-13-2012, 09:46 AM
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So the manual makes it better?
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  #222  
Old 10-13-2012, 09:57 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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So the manual makes it better?
No, worse according to Mike. He posts at bimmerfest under the name "emission" if anyone has questions about the review. It's just another opionion to add to the mix. I just thought you might not have seen this one.
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  #223  
Old 10-13-2012, 10:12 AM
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No, worse according to Mike. He posts at bimmerfest under the name "emission" if anyone has questions about the review. It's just another opionion to add to the mix. I just thought you might not have seen this one.
Oh, I thought we were supposed to disagree with any professional reviewer who says anything bad about the M5.
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  #224  
Old 10-13-2012, 10:33 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Oh, I thought we were supposed to disagree with any professional reviewer who says anything bad about the M5.
Ah I forgot that, sorry my bad, so yes, it makes it better. You're fast I'll try to keep up better

Last edited by solstice; 10-13-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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  #225  
Old 10-13-2012, 12:45 PM
Metallic-Force Metallic-Force is offline
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Hey guys, I was here awhile back looking at the F10 535i, but after driving the A6 V6 Supercharged I fell in love. Anyway, I can't say anything about this M5 particularly, but I do feel BMW has lost it's way. Driving the 550i was pain, it being the standard was nothing but a hype in my opinion. I'm sorry if I sound insulting, but I was surprised how the car was, for a 400hp car it neither was nimble nor sporty. Power cruiser as some have mentioned is spot on. The next generation will be the biggest change in BMW history I guarantee it. They can't keep this up. The re-imaging of BMW needs to start soon. Lightweight materials are a priority if they want to bring back the Mean in their M cars. I do want to re-iterate that I love BMW and my family owns M3,X6, owned 335i Conv,750Li. I'm the black sheep.
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