First 1/4 Mile Results and Questions

Originally Posted by jashearer

What track are you going to? Would love to come out and watch.

Cordova is open for a test n tune tonight if you want to make the 1- 1 1/2 hour drive east. Its a decent track.

Jay

Thanks for the tip.

Since the local track event was canceled (the race director had a heart attack which is why the weekend events got canceled... hopefully he's recovery rapidly and his family is doing well) I spent the beautiful Fall day lumberjacking and cutting/loading/hauling/unloading a massive oak tree from our family timber and I'm whooped. Must say I like loading up that big'ol inline 6 Cummins Diesel with a fully loaded tandem axle trailer and letting it growl :-) Plus I've started imbibing so any possibility of making it to the strip tonight are long gone . . .

When looking for local strips I didn't see that one you mentioned. Google says it's a 2hr 15 min drive, which means a 4.5 hr round trip. That's 2.5 hrs more driving than the one in Cedar Falls. But I'll keep in mind. Thanks.

Nice saw

You are in Cedar Rapids right? I wouldn't trust google on that calc... unless you are are 30 mins from IA City, then maybe...

Let me know when you are headed up to Cedar Falls, I would make the drive. I'm trying to sell my V and would love to get into a 335d to polish out my garage full of diesels.

Jay

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

...I spent the beautiful Fall day lumberjacking and cutting/loading/hauling/unloading a massive oak tree from our family timber and I'm whooped...

Looks like an MS290 with 24" bar, by the number of teeth. I have an earlier 029; doesn't look as purty as yours!

Poulan buyers are pussies, Husqvarna buyers have holes in their head. Stihl is the only saw to buy.

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Looks like an MS290 with 24" bar, by the number of teeth. I have an earlier 029; doesn't look as purty as yours!

Poulan buyers are pussies, Husqvarna buyers have holes in their head. Stihl is the only saw to buy.

HA!

Close. Actually it's a MS361 with 20" bar. A 24" bar would've worked better for that tree though...

Originally Posted by jashearer

Let me know when you are headed up to Cedar Falls, I would make the drive. I'm trying to sell my V and would love to get into a 335d to polish out my garage full of diesels.

Jay

I'll consider that.

Been very pleased with the 335d (still can't believe they brought that to the US). Hope you find a nice one!

Just ran a 12.6 @ 109.7 on the first pull. Stopping while I'm ahead and heading to famous daves. Time slip to follow.

Sent from my ADR6325 using Bimmer App

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Just ran a 12.6 @ 109.7 on the first pull. Stopping while I'm ahead and heading to famous daves. Time slip to follow.

Sent from my ADR6325 using Bimmer App

That's money. Nice cool air to feed the turbos.

What tires were you using?

Jay

Originally Posted by jashearer

What tires were you using?

Jay

Sorry you weren't able to make it today. Hope you have a great time tomorrow.

Fantastic rib day at Famous Dave's . . .

Running Hoosier DOT Drag Radials in 245/45R17 and had them at ~27 psi. Got a much improved 60' launch compared to last time. These are a fairly big increase in diameter(26.2 in from their website) over stock. Did this due to the car shifting before the 1/4 ml point with the OEM size tires at ~106-107mph into the headwind from last time at the track. Calculated the car should be able to do ~109-110mph with no headwind and thought the larger diameter tires would help avoid a shift near the crossing. The car still shifted into 5th near the finish line, but things were happening so fast couldn't tell if it was just after or just before.

The track runs due North.

https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...d=0CIIBEPwSMAA

The weather has been cold and rainy. The ground and track were cold at racetime. Temps for the pull were ~48 with a ~5mph WSW wind.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/...statename=Iowa

Got destroyed by the other guy who was there for the race competition, but was happy to achieve the goal.

Oh, and after eating ribs, topped off with fuel for the 60mile interstate trip home. Car recorded 42.7mpg's as it pulled into the garage with primarily 75 mph speeds. Really like this car.

That seems like a really high psi setting for a sticky tire? Is that common though for BMWs?

It's definitely higher than what a lot of others run them at. Had read best results come from using the most psi as possible while still getting good grip (more psi gives less rolling resistance). From the previous Gtech testing it seemed a ~2 sec 60' time was achievable with 25-30psi in the Hoosiers, and that time point was what it looked like would be needed to get into the mid 12's. The slush box tranny really reduces the violent start compared to dumping a clutch in a stick so ... used more psi.

Could probably break boost higher rpm's and run lower psi's to improve the 60' and improve the ET. But dang, that's a lot of stress on things.

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

It's definitely higher than what a lot of others run them at. Had read best results come from using the most psi as possible while still getting good grip (more psi gives less rolling resistance). From the previous Gtech testing it seemed a ~2 sec 60' time was achievable with 25-30psi in the Hoosiers, and that time point was what it looked like would be needed to get into the mid 12's. The slush box tranny really reduces the violent start compared to dumping a clutch in a stick so ... used more psi.

Could probably break boost higher rpm's and run lower psi's to improve the 60' and improve the ET. But dang, that's a lot of stress on things.

Yeah drag racing can be pretty brutal on parts if you get overly serious about your times.

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Just ran a 12.6 @ 109.7 on the first pull. Stopping while I'm ahead and heading to famous daves. Time slip to follow.

Sent from my ADR6325 using Bimmer App

The fastest 335d on record! Great job man! Post that time up on drag times!

Decent 60 too. I suspect you can get that down a bit further and improve on that time.

Felicidades TDIwyse great job

Originally Posted by Axel61

Felicidades

Had to look that up ...

Thanks

Well, last years 1/4 mile performance wasn't a fluke...

Improved just a tad today from last years 12.69 to a 12.65 today, with less favorable conditions.

Today was opening day at the nearest 1/4 mile track. Wasn't planning on going until the night before when an obligation got canceled. So, I was able to try some of the new things, but the car wasn't optimally prepared. It had too much fuel (2/3 full of fuel) and the temps were a little warmer than last year. Oh well, it was still a chance to learn.

The car was heavier by 50-60 lbs from last year due to more fuel and more urea. More urea in the tank than last year (last years run was very close to the yearly maintenance and today was less 1/2 way to the yearly service). The temps were pretty good at ~65F, but that was ~18F warmer than last years run.

Also used slightly smaller diameter drag radial. Last years run was larger than stock diamter 245/44/R17 drag radials. Todays was with 225/45R17's which are close to stock diamater.

So, a recap of differences from last year include:
1.) 225/45R17 drag radials vs last years 245/45R17
2.) Customized the water/methanol injection. I made a circuit modification to the Snow boost based controller that creates
a 2D controller ... It now works based on boost AND rpm. Our cars make max boost happens at the lower rpm's and then taper off slighter at higher rpm's. This causes a problem with a boost only controller as you can bog down at the lower rpm's
if you have things setup for optimum higher rpm performance. So now it has an additional rpm component. It will
turn on if enough boost is present (adjustable level) AND based on a minimum rpm (adjustable). If those are satisfied
the output is proportional to rpm's. At full fueling the water/methanol starts at ~2000 rpm's at ~350ml/min and maxes out
at ~4500 rpm at 700 ml/min. Both last and this year used 50/50 mix.
3.) 65F this year vs 47F last year.
4.) ~60 lbs heavier than last year.
5.) Stock intake, stock intercooler, stock exhaust, stock differential... same as last year.

The smaller diameter tires helped the times, even with the heavier vehicle. But I'm at a frustrating point where the 4-5 shift is occurring right at the 1/4 mile point. The top speed is a tad slower this year even though the time is quicker. The smaller tire caused the 4-5 shift to occur before the 1/4 mile point. The shift point causes a loss of application of power as during the shift the power output is cut to help the transmission's longevity ... Last year the larger diameter tire caused the shift to occur right as I was crossing the line. This year with smaller tire it happened right before ... Not sure how to optimize this problem any further. Basically I can trade off a faster 1/4 mile ET with the larger tires, but a faster 1/4 mile time with the smaller tires. Think for real world/street application the smaller diameter tire is the way to go.

Had a great time chatting with the former BMW tech I met during last fall's run. He was there with his car, but broke something in his drivetrain on his 2nd run. He had a co-worker who was the diesel calibration technician at a major heavy duty ag company ... we went over the car, what mods it had, and what he's seen in real world applications for his companies modern diesels (EGR, SCR, DPF, Carbon buildup, how to work around emission components ...). Was fantastic to have a face to face with someone who knows their modern diesel technology.

So basically what I'm seeing is that to significantly increase capability will get really, really expensive and make the car less user friendly and emission clean. I'm not keen on removing the DPF due to the smoke/stink. And at this point it doesn't seem to be causing any performance issues. Think I'm probably at the end of my tweaking on this vehicle as its my main ride now and having something I can daily drive in all conditions (except deep snow) is a priority. I may go back again to the track if the weather is perfect and I have time to get the car in the proper condition (~1/8 tank of fuel, lower urea capacity, cooler temps... strong tail wind :-)).

Happy dieseling everyone.

@TDI, I've been pondering the meth/water injection. Did your Snow setup come made for the 335D or can you please elaborate about your setup please. Tank in trunk? Did you drill your intercooler pipe fpr the bung or get another pipe with bung already installed? I assume you are injecting in the intercooler pipe. I had read Stugots was runing JBM with meth but the JBM was taking into account that he was meth/water injecting.

Any guidance or pointers would be much appreciated? thanks

On vacation with limited cell coverage. Will try to respond when I get back.

Sent from my XT901 using Bimmer App

Originally Posted by BB_cuda

@TDI, I've been pondering the meth/water injection. Did your Snow setup come made for the 335D or can you please elaborate about your setup please. Tank in trunk? Did you drill your intercooler pipe fpr the bung or get another pipe with bung already installed? I assume you are injecting in the intercooler pipe. I had read Stugots was runing JBM with meth but the JBM was taking into account that he was meth/water injecting.

Any guidance or pointers would be much appreciated? thanks

I'm using the windshield washer tank for the fluid.

Drilled and taped the intake pipe before the IAT (see below).

The Snow controller I'm using is a simple progressive "boost" operated unit. It came with the option to use either a hose barb connection (if you're routing a line from the boosted air intake) or a DC voltage from a MAF input. You could set a starting and ending value and it would progressively increase injection across that range. I was using the 335d's MAP (not MAF) sensor, which is the boosted air reading, for the DC level for quite some time and it worked pretty decently if you didn't get too aggressive with the setting.

The 335d can make full boost at really low rpm's (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=56) where you can quench the combustion if you inject too much at lower rpm's. So it was a fine balance of injecting too much for a given boost at low rpm's vs not quite getting enough at high rpm's.

I was injecting before the IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor so the DDE could take advantage of the cooler combustion air and adapt the injection parameters (it changes injection timing/duration based on the IAT data). The location of the H2O injector and the impact to IAT's is shown here for some open road 3rd gear pulls: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=62

This configuration is what I was using when I did the 1/4 mile run last October in 12.69 sec at 109.7 mph. Actually found the Torque Track Recorder video and posted it on youtube today. This was at a Test-n-Tune and I was lined up with a real drag car who CRUSHED me :-)



I wasn't happy with this setup, as an issue I noticed was that during the DPF cycle, boost response changes a bit for a given amount of power output. As the DPF regen approached the engine would make more boost for moderate accelerations than with a freshly regenerated DPF. This caused some issues with optimizing the H2O injection settings. Also, I didn't want to be injecting methanol during regens for obvious reasons. See my response on this thread for why starting at post 14: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=841543

So... I customized things a bit. I was already using a circuit I created to progressively add in the JBD fuel rail distortion based on rpm, so I modified it some more and created an rpm aspect to the H2O injection control. Now the controller sees a DC input that is based on boost and rpm. This way I can minimize the injection quantity at low rpm's so I don't quench the combustion, but still be able to inject full amounts at high rpm's. This setup helped me do an even quicker 1/4 mile at 12.65 with warmer temps and a heavier car than the video above.

I took a quick video today showing the flow rate vs rpm response for a moderate accelerating (enough boost to trigger the H2O, but not so much as to make it too short to see the relationship) 3rd gear pull. You can see the H2O start to be injected at ~2300 rpm (the start level is adjustable on my circuit via a potentiometer) at ~400 ml/min on the AEM guage and rise to full ~650+ ml/min at 4000+ rpm's. This is a much more optimized approach.



Another interesting comparison of the impact of the H2O injection on IAT's and EGT's is shown from the dyno data I posted recently. Even with substantially more output torque and power than the Evolve remap alone provides, the EGT's are similar with the help of the H2O injection. Without the H2O injection, the EGT's would be at dangerous levels...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=699265

Hope you find this helpful.

@TDI, you just gave me the advanced calculus version. I'm needing remedial algebra first. Did you just drill your OEM charge tube or did you buy another one somewhere? I'd like to be able to revert back without having to cork up the hole. I'm still in warranty and removing the meth kit sounds like too much for a dealer visit. It would seem obvious that doing the meth/water inject is way more effective at lowering the IAT as compared to the intercooler some folks have installed from Wagner. I emplore that I am not bad mouthing that product nor the efforts of some festers to get that product going in the pipelines. It would seem that using evaporative cooling which is active cooling "blows" away passive cooling which will at best get you down to T infinity of the convective cooling source (T ambient). I'll keep rereading your tech info and hopefully catch up sometime. I have a heat transfer back ground. What kind of engineer are you?

HA!

First off … I’m not someone who thinks if we modify a car under factory warranty and cause a problem that we should try to get the manufacturer to fix our self induced problem. However, I do understand that a lot of shops would not do due diligence in diagnostics if they see a mod and automatically blame the mod for the problem. So, that being stated, let’s continue…

Originally Posted by BB_cuda

Did you just drill your OEM charge tube or did you buy another one somewhere?

Yes, drilled and tapped the oem charge pipe. Pre IAT sensor. This is so the DDE can adapt timing based on IAT (I’ve got some data from pulls that demonstrates the advance in injection timing if anyone is interested). I also have a backup charge pipe to install if needed. Although, I have some NPT stainless “plugs” that can be used to plug the hole if the H2O injector is removed. It’s easier to just plug the hole than remove the charge pipe and install the non-molested one (which requires removing the underbelly covers and lifting the car to swap out the pipe).

It takes me about an hour to remove the mods I’ve got. But about 2 hrs to re-install. With all the wires/connections it’s a lot of fussing around…

Originally Posted by BB_cuda

It would seem obvious that doing the meth/water inject is way more effective at lowering the IAT as compared to the intercooler some folks have installed from Wagner. I emplore that I am not bad mouthing that product nor the efforts of some festers to get that product going in the pipelines. It would seem that using evaporative cooling which is active cooling "blows" away passive cooling which will at best get you down to T infinity of the convective cooling source (T ambient)...I have a heat transfer back ground.

Excellent. The thermodynamic data should be of specific interest to you! It’s interesting how much more effective the OEM intercooler is when on the open road vs. standing still on a dyno. The dyno shop had a huge fan the operator placed in front of the car to “help“ cool the intercooler. The fan was huge and moved a lot of air, … just not over the intercooler. On the open road where you are “pushing air” the OEM intercooler works significantly better. Compare the IAT’s on the open road at 90F (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=62) vs. on the dyno at ~65F (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...24&postcount=1). At 90F on the open road starting IAT’s were ~5 F above ambient whereas on the dyno the IAT‘s were ~30F above ambient. However, the thermal dynamics of the H2O/methanol evaporation had radical impacts on the charged temps in both cases. Well above what a passive intercooler can accomplish.

Originally Posted by BB_cuda

What kind of engineer are you?

Undergrad and post grad work specialized in Quantum Physics and Analog/RF/mmW Integrated Circuits. Profession is more in the EE realm.

Question for the engineers; from someone with no knowledge of automotive alcohol water injection.

I used to be a cargo pilot and some of the old piston planes I flew had ADI (Anti-Detonation Injection) and some of the turbines had AWI (Alcohol Water Injection). Both used an alcohol water mix with a small amount of water soluble oil. We were taught that pure water was better at charge air cooling than the water/alcohol mix; but the alcohol had to be added to keep the mix from freezing at altitude.

Question: In an automobile, at least in the warmer months, why not use 100% distilled water? What is the alcohol accomplishing? Or was I taught wrong?


Thanks,

JW

Think you were largely taught correctly.

The addition of methanol can add power. But the higher the methanol/water % you add the less potential EGT reduction you can achieve. Too much EGT's and things melt...

Regarding diesels and water/methanol injection, there's tons of good info out there already. A couple links below should give you some good info to start with.

http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...hp?type=diesel

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/1...h/viewall.html

Ah, makes sense.
The engines I'm speaking of were supercharged and non-intercooled. The blower ratios were designed more for altitude than takeoff. You couldn't use full throttle at sea level; so the easiest way to add power on that engine would be to cool the charge air so that you could use more throttle without getting detonation: hence ADI.