Car will not crank when key is turned

My car has been working witout any problem. I came home 3 days ago with car working fine and parked the car for 2 days. On the third day I went to turn the key and no action watsoever not even a click. Had radio and all warning lights lit up as well as the front lights and AC fan. Nevertheless I figured it was the battery and bought a new one and changed it out. When I went to start much to my surprise no response at all. I checked the voltage in the jumping terminal under the hood and the voltage was 12.5 Volts. I worked the windos and no problem.

I did notice that when I closed the doors the windows did not close the 1" that is usually open in verts. But after I operated them from the car switches then they started to open and close the 1 inch when door is open.

I have no idea of what could be happening I have done nothing other than look at the fluid reservoir for the top hydraulic pump since I'm having a problem raising or lowering the top.

I have no security system on the car but I understand the car has some theft deterrent gizmo.
Can someting in this area be malfunctioning. I did notice there is a fuse called "starter interlock" but I don't have that fuse.

DOES ANYBODY HAVE AN IDEA OF WHAT COULD BE HAPPENING! PLEASE HELP!!!!

If I can get it started I will have to tow to a mechanic.

BTW my car is a 2004 325CI vert E-46 body.

Suspect your starter motor.
How skilled are you?
Check the engine ground strap.
Rap on starter motor with heavy piece of metal.
Check voltage at the starter motor on the large terminal. If OK there, check voltage at the starter on the small terminal when turning the key to try to start your car.
Come back with results if necessary.

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

Suspect your starter motor.
How skilled are you?
Check the engine ground strap.
Rap on starter motor with heavy piece of metal.
Check voltage at the starter motor on the large terminal. If OK there, check voltage at the starter on the small terminal when turning the key to try to start your car.
Come back with results if necessary.

Goforth,
thanks for your reply. I agree with your suggestion 100% but the problem is that on the 325CI vert the motor is totally covered and there is no way to access the starter or the terminals from above. According to mechanics its only available from under the car but unless its on a lift its impossible to access from below. Your sugesstion is what I used to do on older American cars but not possible with the BMW.

I'm not too skilled but certainly know how to use a voltmeter and understand electrical circuits very well and could (if accessible) tap the starter motor.

MY guess is that is probably the starter motor or the start ckt but from some people I have heard that before the switch connects the voltage to the start motor it first must have too other interlocks close. So it could also be one of these interlocks that has cropped out.

I guess an indy shop that has the code reading tool may be able to check this.

Suspect you won't get a code on this. Bet you have no dash light?
Others have done complete starter motor replacements from up above, so your mechanic info is not valid. Have not done it myself, but read more than on online reports.
You could search for an excellent DIY for the starter motor over at e46Fanatics.com.

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

Suspect you won't get a code on this. Bet you have no dash light?
Others have done complete starter motor replacements from up above, so your mechanic info is not valid. Have not done it myself, but read more than on online reports.
You could search for an excellent DIY for the starter motor over at e46Fanatics.com.

Go, I do have dash light and all electrical lights and devices just that the starter will not even make a noise (not even a click) when key is turned.
You are probably right and he is no my mechanic but since I have no idea and when i poke my head in the engine all I see is an engine wrapped in plastic and no visible parts.

Good input on the DYI link I will try today. thanks!

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

Suspect your starter motor.
How skilled are you?
Check the engine ground strap.
Rap on starter motor with heavy piece of metal.
Check voltage at the starter motor on the large terminal. If OK there, check voltage at the starter on the small terminal when turning the key to try to start your car.
Come back with results if necessary.

you can actually manually crank the starter motor using a long screw driver from the top.

and you forget to mention testing for amperage draw from starter motor.

much easier to do starter replacement from the bottom. i wouldnt attempt to do this from the top its a waste of time.

Originally Posted by chansta

you can actually manually crank the starter motor using a long screw driver from the top.

and you forget to mention testing for amperage draw from starter motor.

much easier to do starter replacement from the bottom. i wouldnt attempt to do this from the top its a waste of time.

Thanks but can you give more details on how to crank from the top? Like how can you access the starter from top? Do you need to remove parts? and how do you actually crank the motor or do mean TAP the coil/starter?

Again to measure amp draw I would need to access the terminals.

Originally Posted by chansta

you can actually manually crank the starter motor using a long screw driver from the top.

and you forget to mention testing for amperage draw from starter motor.

much easier to do starter replacement from the bottom. i wouldnt attempt to do this from the top its a waste of time.

starter removal on a manual transimission is easier from the bottom.
starter removal on a automatic transimission is easier from the top.

per Bentley's, on all wheel drive, it "may be" easier to remove starter with the transmission lowered 5cm? glad I don't have to go there.

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

Suspect your starter motor.
How skilled are you?
Check the engine ground strap.
Rap on starter motor with heavy piece of metal.
Check voltage at the starter motor on the large terminal. If OK there, check voltage at the starter on the small terminal when turning the key to try to start your car.
Come back with results if necessary.

Is it not solid proof that the solenoid is not closing when you hit the starter and there is no sound and the high beams do not even blink? It seems that no current is delivered because either the starter motor would crank or if shorted would not crank but would cause a heavy current flow that would dim the lights considerably.

Based on this since my lights did not dim and no sound was heard I'm pretty confident my problem is the solenoid and I would also change the starter because I have heard its a difficult job to do.
Anybody have any idea what the starte motor cost? How about the labor to change? (hours )

No need for current draw test. You'd know it if hundreds of amps were flowing without an ammeter.
If you hear no click, you are not pulling the solenoid in.
I meant no light on dash indicating codes were thrown! Not dash lights.

Starter solenoid is one piece. No one replaces just one.
Rough guess 4-5 hours at the dealer.

Let's not skip the basics. You still have not established that you are getting voltage to the solenoid terminal on the starter when atempting to crank.
You jumped right to thinking it's the solenoid. Use some science here.

Just for the mental exercise, you could measure starter current by opening the circuit over at the jump terminal in the drug bin. But don't do this.

You are very green when it comes to working on an e46. You don't even have the rudimentary knowledge to remove the airbox, MAF. intake hoses, rain tray along with battery cable from one side of the car to the other. And power steering compartment divider. The aforementioned are all basic to getting to many important areas on an e46, includiing the starter.
Necessary to lurk here for a whiile to gain all this insight. You are starting with one of the nastiest jobs.

Learn to use www.realoem.com to find part numbers for your VIN.
Then plug them into the various suppliers listed here: www.furiousmethod.com

Here is a pic of the starter bolts accessed from the top. Not sure if auto or manual, but honestly on this one thank heaven I have not had to do a starter!

Originally Posted by chansta

you can actually manually crank the starter motor using a long screw driver from the top.

Elaborate with more detail please?

If the solenoid is dead, this will not work?

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

No need for current draw test. You'd know it if hundreds of amps were flowing without an ammeter.

just because there is voltage present it does not mean that the starter is drawing enough amps to work.

and how would you know if it was drawing sufficient amperage without an ammeter? explain.

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

Elaborate with more detail please?

If the solenoid is dead, this will not work?

jumping the terminals. even if solenoid is dead there is battery power available for the starter.

if it dont work obviously he needs a starter.

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

No need for current draw test. You'd know it if hundreds of amps were flowing without an ammeter.
If you hear no click, you are not pulling the solenoid in.
I meant no light on dash indicating codes were thrown! Not dash lights.

Starter solenoid is one piece. No one replaces just one.
Rough guess 4-5 hours at the dealer.

Let's not skip the basics. You still have not established that you are getting voltage to the solenoid terminal on the starter when atempting to crank.
You jumped right to thinking it's the solenoid. Use some science here.

Just for the mental exercise, you could measure starter current by opening the circuit over at the jump terminal in the drug bin. But don't do this.

You are very green when it comes to working on an e46. You don't even have the rudimentary knowledge to remove the airbox, MAF. intake hoses, rain tray along with battery cable from one side of the car to the other. And power steering compartment divider. The aforementioned are all basic to getting to many important areas on an e46, includiing the starter.
Necessary to lurk here for a whiile to gain all this insight. You are starting with one of the nastiest jobs.

Learn to use www.realoem.com to find part numbers for your VIN.
Then plug them into the various suppliers listed here: www.furiousmethod.com

Here is a pic of the starter bolts accessed from the top. Not sure if auto or manual, but honestly on this one thank heaven I have not had to do a starter!

GoFORTH,
thanks for your input. You are right I'm green but learning fast and anxious to keep learning. I can remove the airbox and other items like replacing the battery but I have no idea what the MAF is or how to get to the starter. I also placed an ammeter in series with the battery and tried to start and there was no current draw which if the circuit is complete would indicate a faulty coil or an interlock opening the ckt like the ews system.

You are right about the nasty nature and Im afraid I will have to resort to an independent mechanic not necessarily a BMW one since all good mechanics know how to change a starter.
I know how to use www.realoem.com but it does not list the price of the starter can you believe. I will try your other URL since I believe I have a part number but I need to check with the stealer.
By the way you forgot the picture. Please post it and thanks for all the great help.

Originally Posted by klixtokw

GoFORTH,
thanks for your input. You are right I'm green but learning fast and anxious to keep learning. I can remove the airbox and other items like replacing the battery but I have no idea what the MAF is or how to get to the starter. I also placed an ammeter in series with the battery and tried to start and there was no current draw which if the circuit is complete would indicate a faulty coil or an interlock opening the ckt like the ews system.

You are right about the nasty nature and Im afraid I will have to resort to an independent mechanic not necessarily a BMW one since all good mechanics know how to change a starter.
I know how to use www.realoem.com but it does not list the price of the starter can you believe. I will try your other URL since I believe I have a part number but I need to check with the stealer.
By the way you forgot the picture. Please post it and thanks for all the great help.

ur fuse is blown bro u dont put a ammeter in series to test for starter current draw. thats why you're not getting a reading. you need to learn to use ur tools properly before you attempt to diagnose.

i commend you for looking for information to try and diagnose this yourself but to me this is over your head. not just you, this is the case for probably 95% of the people on these forums. i'd take it to a reputable shop if i were you and be done with the headaches.

Originally Posted by chansta

just because there is voltage present it does not mean that the starter is drawing enough amps to work.
and how would you know if it was drawing sufficient amperage without an ammeter? explain.

Not sound electrical theory. Unless you have an open circuit in the solenoid, or starter coils or commutator, you will draw enough amps. Only way amps might be too little would be if some high resistance developed. But this is not the mode of failure of a starter. Current draw test not useful.


jumping the terminals. even if solenoid is dead there is battery power available for the starter.

if it dont work obviously he needs a starter.

Jumping the terminals in a tight space might be dangerous (and expensive), especially for an amateur. But if you could jump the termnals and knew what you were doing, if the solenoid was bad, the starter would not engage or spin.
But we still haven't tested for voltage at the starter as measured to the ground of the engine rather than the ground of the car body to establish whether or not the ground strap is sound.
Must eliminate every possibility until you find the problem.

see pic of ground strap

Originally Posted by chansta

ur fuse is blown bro u dont put a ammeter in series to test for starter current draw. thats why you're not getting a reading. you need to learn to use ur tools properly before you attempt to diagnose.

i commend you for looking for information to try and diagnose this yourself but to me this is over your head. not just you, this is the case for probably 95% of the people on these forums. i'd take it to a reputable shop if i were you and be done with the headaches.

Even w/o the ammeter I have no current flow to the starter. By the way this is the way the manufacturer instructs how to connect and it si reading the parasitic currents when placed in the ma scale. It has a 1200a scale for large currents.
But I agree with you changing the starter is such a nasty job that i will have to take it to a mechanic but the problem is finding an independent one that is, as you say, reputable.

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

Jumping the terminals in a tight space might be dangerous (and expensive), especially for an amateur. But if you could jump the termnals and knew what you were doing, if the solenoid was bad, the starter would not engage or spin.
But we still haven't tested for voltage at the starter as measured to the ground of the engine rather than the ground of the car body to establish whether or not the ground strap is sound.
Must eliminate every possibility until you find the problem.

see pic of ground strap

Good input and thanks for the picture.

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

Not sound electrical theory. Unless you have an open circuit in the solenoid, or starter coils or commutator, you will draw enough amps. Only way amps might be too little would be if some high resistance developed. But this is not the mode of failure of a starter. Current draw test not useful.

But we still haven't tested for voltage at the starter as measured to the ground of the engine rather than the ground of the car body to establish whether or not the ground strap is sound.
Must eliminate every possibility until you find the problem.

see pic of ground strap

ok my mistake. what i meant was excessive current draw. mechanical resistance (bad starter motor) will draw excessive amperage. if the solenoid is bad, why do you think it went bad?? dont you think excessive mechanical resistance drawing high amperage could have damaged the solenoid????

but you telling him to check ground strap (excessive resistance if loose or corroded) would cause insufficient amperage draw. which again, could be indicated by doing an amperage draw test on the starter.

i dont know why you keep ruling out current draw test as worthless. it is obvious you do not have experience in the automotive field based on your "current draw test worthless" assumption.

Originally Posted by klixtokw

Even w/o the ammeter I have no current flow to the starter. By the way this is the way the manufacturer instructs how to connect and it si reading the parasitic currents when placed in the ma scale. It has a 1200a scale for large currents.
But I agree with you changing the starter is such a nasty job that i will have to take it to a mechanic but the problem is finding an independent one that is, as you say, reputable.

yes your meter has a range of amperage that it can read but your meter it self is not rated to test for amperage beyond probably 10-15 amps. your DMM has a fuse inside which will blow to protect your device for when you do something like you've done by accident. im telling you right now you've blown the fuse in your ammeter and it will not be able to read any amperage readings until its been replaced. you're going to need a high amp clamp capable of reading starter current draw so that it can display the amperage values on your meter.

Originally Posted by klixtokw

GoFORTH,
thanks for your input. You are right I'm green but learning fast and anxious to keep learning. I can remove the airbox and other items like replacing the battery but I have no idea what the MAF is or how to get to the starter. I also placed an ammeter in series with the battery and tried to start and there was no current draw which if the circuit is complete would indicate a faulty coil or an interlock opening the ckt like the ews system.

You are right about the nasty nature and Im afraid I will have to resort to an independent mechanic not necessarily a BMW one since all good mechanics know how to change a starter.
I know how to use www.realoem.com but it does not list the price of the starter can you believe. I will try your other URL since I believe I have a part number but I need to check with the stealer.
By the way you forgot the picture. Please post it and thanks for all the great help.

I'll always work with someone eager to learn.
MAF is Mass Airflow Sensor
starter is under the two rubber intake boots that connect the MAF to the throttle body and ICV.
Don't ever put an ammeter in series with the starter motor again unless you have one capable of hundreds of amps? Where did you get that?
If you want to use a meter, use an ohmmeter to measure the resistance of the solenoid coil.
Lots of mechanics can do starters. The trick here is familiarity with access on an e46. Find one who can do this or he'll be starting from where you are right now.

Here's the starter listed with part #: http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...92&hg=12&fg=25

And not hard to find with what I gave you: http://www.rmeuropean.com/search.asp...rd=12412179001

Originally Posted by chansta

i dont know why you keep ruling out current draw test as worthless.

Because there are much simpler and easier ways to diagnose.
Do you have an ammeter capable of measurng three or four hundred DC amps?

Originally Posted by klixtokw

It has a 1200a scale for large currents.

Please take a picture of this for me? I am preparing to be amazed!
Do you use welding cables for this measurement?

Originally Posted by GoForthFast

Because there are much simpler and easier ways to diagnose.
Do you have an ammeter capable of measurng three or four hundred DC amps?

its called an amp clamp you've obviously never used one... you kno the VATS?? the machines that load test the battery and alternator?? they use whats called an amp clamp as well.

you're a fool for thinking amperage isnt important.

i've seen too many technicians stuck on their ass scratching their heads because a simple circuit has battery voltage and ground but is not operating.

you do realize a single strand can still carry 12v but not be able to deliver the amperage needed to power the load? this is where testing for amperage can save your ass on hours of diagnostic time.

btw there's a difference between simple diagnostics and thorough diagnostics. one results in comebacks and other results in satisfied customers.

Thanks for the links I did use them and found the part and price. thanks!

Originally Posted by chansta

its called an amp clamp you've obviously never used one... you kno the VATS?? the machines that load test the battery and alternator?? they use whats called an amp clamp as well.

you're a fool for thinking amperage isnt important.

i've seen too many technicians stuck on their ass scratching their heads because a simple circuit has battery voltage and ground but is not operating.

you do realize a single strand can still carry 12v but not be able to deliver the amperage needed to power the load? this is where testing for amperage can save your ass on hours of diagnostic time.

I used a hook on around the battery wires that is capable of 1000amps DC. No big deal you just hook it on and read. Its very efficient and safe. Any current leaving the battery will be read. BTW I think amperage is not only important but would indicate what is wrong. That is why I'm measuring it.
Chansta I agree with all you state but I can't even find or access the starter motor much less measure current at its terminals. It has been suggested to knock on the starter motor with a long screw driver but details of how to access the starter, w/o dismantling anything, to do this has not been provided.

Originally Posted by klixtokw

I used a hook on around the battery wires that is capable of 1000amps DC. No big deal you just hook it on and read. Its very efficient and safe. Any current leaving the battery will be read. BTW I think amperage is not only important but would indicate what is wrong. That is why I'm measuring it.
Chansta I agree with all you state but I can't even find or access the starter motor much less measure current at its terminals. It has been suggested to knock on the starter motor with a long screw driver but details of how to access the starter, w/o dismantling anything, to do this has not been provided.

all im trying to do is help. i honestly dont believe that you used a amp clamp to measure current draw considering you specifically stated manufacturer directions on how to read parasitic draw and you also stated that you put your "ammeter" in series.

also i never said to knock on the starter motor. i said to jump the terminals to bypass solenoid and apply direct battery power to the starter. you can use a flash light and see where the terminals are from the top of the engine.

no hard feelings here best of luck to you.