Is Mike Miller Maintenance for me?

Originally Posted by yeoman

you do realize this guy is trolling you and everyone else, right?

The inner Imp made me do it.

Shoulda said: Why so serious?

Originally Posted by Yeoman

You do realize this guy is trolling you and everyone else, right?

It doesn't bother me. I'm here to have discussions and as long as it's civil I'm fine with it.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

It doesn't bother me. I'm here to have discussions and as long as it's civil I'm fine with it.

He's making a joke out of your naivety.. If it sounds stupid you're either dealing with a 'tard or you're getting trolled, both equally unworthy of further discussion.

Originally Posted by Yeoman

He's making a joke out of your naivety.. If it sounds stupid you're either dealing with a 'tard or you're getting trolled, both equally unworthy of further discussion.

Goodness gracious, stop with the negative waves!

Not it at all, really....

Originally Posted by Yeoman

You do realize this guy is trolling you and everyone else, right?

Which is why he has been on my ignore list for a long, long, time. Unfortunately, people insist on quoting practically everything he says, so I'm subjected anyway.

Originally Posted by Yeoman

He's making a joke out of your naivety.. If it sounds stupid you're either dealing with a 'tard or you're getting trolled, both equally unworthy of further discussion.

I'm well aware of his posting style:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...43&postcount=8

Originally Posted by sunny5280

I'm well aware of his posting style:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...43&postcount=8

Sunny, very good news: You have won a vintage Leonard Cohen album.

You other guys, I got hours of Jackson Browne fer ya....enjoy!

Originally Posted by SD Z4MR

Which is why he has been on my ignore list for a long, long, time. Unfortunately, people insist on quoting practically everything he says, so I'm subjected anyway.

I'm feelin' your pain Tom, feelin' your pain....

As an attempt to get this thread back on topic regarding MM Old School Maintenance I follow some of his recommendations. However where you live and how you drive affects the schedule more than blindly following something set in stone. Extended oil changes for example Kola Motor Sports in Columbus, Ohio used to post pictures of BMWs that ran these oil changes. BMW forced Brett Anderson the owner to remove the pics or face litigation. The pics showed severely sludhed engines bearing failures. Now what isn't clear is how they were driven in Ohio. What is clear is that these were local cars subject to larger temperature fluctuations year round than cars in the south where I live most of the time. It all depends short drives say 4 miles twice a day in colder climates in stop and go traffic will provide different results than a 26 mi drive twice a day in warmer climates at freeway speeds. Clearly this factor accounts for more weighting than anything else. My 284K mile E36 M3 had only BMW oil changes using 5W30 synthetic oil. This car lived in AZ and FL and was free of sludge.
Had this car been given the same maintenance treatment in Ohio with short drives with the engine seldom getting out of open loop running the results would be different.
To the point you cannot run a statistical analysis of BMWs program against MM's program because you can't compare components that failed at a certain point against those taken out of service and replaced.
Lifetime fluids is another divigent point between BMW and independents. BMW used to state lifetime fluilds for
Automatic transmissions but now states 100k mi
Changes. Why? Because they failed and BMW has to compete with Lexus etc and their schedules are
Much different. ZF manufacturer of many automatic tramsmissions has recommended 50k mi changes vs BMW now saying 100k mi changes. I side with the manufacturer of the tramsmission not BMW in this case and if I spend too much for maintenance for peace of mind so be it...

Originally Posted by fun2drive

[snip]

Lifetime fluids is another divigent point between BMW and independents. BMW used to state lifetime fluilds for
Automatic transmissions but now states 100k mi
Changes. Why? Because they failed and BMW has to compete with Lexus etc and their schedules are
Much different. ZF manufacturer of many automatic tramsmissions has recommended 50k mi changes vs BMW now saying 100k mi changes. I side with the manufacturer of the tramsmission not BMW in this case and if I spend too much for maintenance for peace of mind so be it...

People are willing to pay good money for peace of mind when it comes to their bodies, think life insurance and annual physicals. Why not pay far less yet get a similar result with our cars?
Your point about actual driving conditions being the largest single variable is spot on. One size doesn't fit all, one pill isn't for patients of all ages, and one maintenance plan isn't right for every car. They need to be tailored to location, drive plan and drive style.

Originally Posted by fun2drive

ZF manufacturer of many automatic tramsmissions has recommended 50k mi changes vs BMW now saying 100k mi changes. I side with the manufacturer of the tramsmission not BMW in this case and if I spend too much for maintenance for peace of mind so be it...

Hey F2D, post a reference if there's one for BMW's Step....want t'salt that one away, bookmarks.

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Sunny, very good news: You have won a vintage Leonard Cohen album.

Can't beat that with a hammer!

Originally Posted by DSXMachina

People are willing to pay good money for peace of mind when it comes to their bodies, think life insurance and annual physicals. Why not pay far less yet get a similar result with our cars?

Like many things meant to take care of people's bodies there's no evidence to support taking such steps offers any tangible benefit. All it does is shift money from your pocket to someone else's.

Originally Posted by DSXMachina

People are willing to pay good money for peace of mind when it comes to their bodies, think life insurance and annual physicals. Why not pay far less yet get a similar result with our cars?
Your point about actual driving conditions being the largest single variable is spot on. One size doesn't fit all, one pill isn't for patients of all ages, and one maintenance plan isn't right for every car. They need to be tailored to location, drive plan and drive style.

That's my main point with regard to oil change interval. I'm not at all convinced that frequent oil changes accomplish anything and I do believe that 15,000 miles would probably be fine. BUT, it costs me an extra $100 a year to do an additional oil change, makes me feel better, and gives me peace of mine. Other than the possible implications for the environment, there really is no downside.

God bless Mike Miller...he's highly knowledgeable in many areas, but when I "called him" on some erroneous tire engineering/technical comments some years ago (Roundel) he declined to acknowledge his error and retract it. He's quite proud and incapable of admitting a mistake (or at least I can't ever recall that he did).

Originally Posted by fun2drive

As an attempt to get this thread back on topic



Lifetime fluids is another divigent point between BMW and independents. BMW used to state lifetime fluilds for
Automatic transmissions but now states 100k mi
Changes. Why? Because they failed and BMW has to compete with Lexus etc and their schedules are
Much different. ZF manufacturer of many automatic tramsmissions has recommended 50k mi changes vs BMW now saying 100k mi changes. I side with the manufacturer of the tramsmission not BMW in this case and if I spend too much for maintenance for peace of mind so be it...

Lets forget at OCIs..beat to death. 10k or 15k, who cares?

But I would be interested to hear knowledgeable opionons on ATF changes (which eliminates the need for replies from any moron saying we need to have 'evidence of benefits' before considering something other than BMWs recommendations)

I find it interesting that BMW puts the ATF change past the end of the CPO warranty (for all practical purposes)...and when you roll in to any dealer with 99,999 miles they will say "look, you dont want to mess with that, it can stir up stuff that can cause the tranny to fail".

My position is that fluids degrade- wear products contiminate- and fresh fluid and removal of crud (at say 30, 40, 50k intervals) is the best plan.

Comments?

A

PS DSX missed the word "prophylactically" when he said 'I would not recommend replacement'..but it was implied and clear to all except one....

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=627435

ICE engines still burn fuel with byproducts its not that different than it ever was.
You may not want to follow Mikes aircraft maintenance approach but it sure warns you
where the expected trouble spots are so you can monitor those spots for trouble.

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

A dry run of small sample size.

Acid test: Coast t'coast routed through Phoenix or Yuma to LA in Monsoon Season.

Parents must be at least 10 years past retirement age to be eligible. Octagenarian or better preferred.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

You said, and I quote:

"I recommend you make the journey and document your results"

I did exactly what you recommended. Now you're trying to move the goal posts.

You fail to recognize that CALWATERBOY has a very dry sense of humor and, as with many of his posts (and virtually all in this thread), was being facetious.

Originally Posted by ard

Lets forget at OCIs..beat to death. 10k or 15k, who cares?

But I would be interested to hear knowledgeable opionons on ATF changes (which eliminates the need for replies from any moron saying we need to have 'evidence of benefits' before considering something other than BMWs recommendations)

I find it interesting that BMW puts the ATF change past the end of the CPO warranty (for all practical purposes)...and when you roll in to any dealer with 99,999 miles they will say "look, you dont want to mess with that, it can stir up stuff that can cause the tranny to fail".

My position is that fluids degrade- wear products contiminate- and fresh fluid and removal of crud (at say 30, 40, 50k intervals) is the best plan.

Comments?

A

PS DSX missed the word "prophylactically" when he said 'I would not recommend replacement'..but it was implied and clear to all except one....

If you are looking for confirmation of your approach, send a sample of the fluid off for analysis. My personal experience is that 'lifetime' transmission fluid starts to degrade below spec around the 45K mile point.

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

That's my main point with regard to oil change interval. I'm not at all convinced that frequent oil changes accomplish anything and I do believe that 15,000 miles would probably be fine. BUT, it costs me an extra $100 a year to do an additional oil change, makes me feel better, and gives me peace of mine. Other than the possible implications for the environment, there really is no downside.

What implications for the environment? Used oil is re-cycled, unless one is intentionally wanting to pollute.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You fail to recognize that CALWATERBOY has a very dry sense of humor and, as with many of his posts (and virtually all in this thread), was being facetious.

Uh, no. See an earlier post of mine where I referenced a post about his posting style

Originally Posted by anE934fun

What implications for the environment? Used oil is re-cycled, unless one is intentionally wanting to pollute.

Re-cycling is not at zero sum game. There is actually a lot of energy and a fair bit of raw material consumed.

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Re-cycling is not at zero sum game. There is actually a lot of energy and a fair bit of raw material consumed.

How so? URL? If you want to go into the weeds.... What about the cost of engines that fail prematurely due to oil not sufficiently lubing? There is the re-manufacturing (or scrapping) cost that is incurred sooner than would have occurred if the oil had been changed more frequently. Somehow, I suspect the re-manufacturing/pre-mature scrapping cost far exceeds the cost of the lost oil in re-cycling.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

How so? URL? If you want to go into the weeds.... What about the cost of engines that fail prematurely due to oil not sufficiently lubing? There is the re-manufacturing (or scrapping) cost that is incurred sooner than would have occurred if the oil had been changed more frequently. Somehow, I suspect the re-manufacturing/pre-mature scrapping cost far exceeds the cost of the lost oil in re-cycling.

Not to be disrespectful, but I really couldn't be less interested in debating the pros and cons of recycling with you. It was just a off hand quip, let it go.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

How so? URL? If you want to go into the weeds.... What about the cost of engines that fail prematurely due to oil not sufficiently lubing? There is the re-manufacturing (or scrapping) cost that is incurred sooner than would have occurred if the oil had been changed more frequently. Somehow, I suspect the re-manufacturing/pre-mature scrapping cost far exceeds the cost of the lost oil in re-cycling.

Again: I have seen no evidence showing adhering to BMW's recommend oil change intervals reduces engine life. If you have some data to support as much then I'd be very interested in seeing it.