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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 10-21-2011, 11:18 AM
tdog47 tdog47 is offline
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x5 4.8 rear tire wear -- crazy

I put some Continental DWS's on for the summer and only got 9000 miles. I have the staggered setup with 315's on the rear. Couple of questions to the forum: Is this expected tire life for the rears ? Also, would going to the same size wheel all around be ok for this vehicle in terms of tire wear ? I could at least rotate them with same size all around but the looks would suck a bit. I would want something not to skinny for sure.

Anybody do this with the 4.8 ? I have the 214 wheels.

Also, I do swap the wheels/tires for winter but I want longer summer tire life !
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  #2  
Old 10-21-2011, 02:27 PM
Matt_UKTX Matt_UKTX is offline
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There is no way you should only get 9000 miles on the Conti DWS. That's an all-season tire. I had Bridgestone 960 AS on my car (same category of tire) and got 30,000 on a staggered set up. Seems like something is off.
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  #3  
Old 10-21-2011, 02:33 PM
tdog47 tdog47 is offline
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I had it in to BMW yesterday and they said the rear end was "off spec" and did a rear end alignment which cost me $149 as it's not a warranty item. The tech also said that the 4.8i is notorious for going through rear tires. That sort of bummed me out.

Any idea what else might be going on ? It's not as if I drive the thing like a NASCAR driver either. Just normal city driving in it.

The fronts which were put on at the same time are like new. It's only the rears that are worn to the point of being racing slicks. I don't want to put new rears on every year !
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  #4  
Old 10-21-2011, 02:51 PM
Matt_UKTX Matt_UKTX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdog47 View Post
I had it in to BMW yesterday and they said the rear end was "off spec" and did a rear end alignment which cost me $149 as it's not a warranty item. The tech also said that the 4.8i is notorious for going through rear tires. That sort of bummed me out.

Any idea what else might be going on ? It's not as if I drive the thing like a NASCAR driver either. Just normal city driving in it.

The fronts which were put on at the same time are like new. It's only the rears that are worn to the point of being racing slicks. I don't want to put new rears on every year !
My guess is the alignment issue caused this. Also make sure you keep your tire pressures consistent. Too high and the centers will wear too fast, too low and the shoulders will wear too fast.

Was the wear even on the old tires, or just in one section of the tire?
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  #5  
Old 10-21-2011, 02:54 PM
ard ard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdog47 View Post
I had it in to BMW yesterday and they said the rear end was "off spec" and did a rear end alignment which cost me $149 as it's not a warranty item. The tech also said that the 4.8i is notorious for going through rear tires. That sort of bummed me out.

Any idea what else might be going on ? It's not as if I drive the thing like a NASCAR driver either. Just normal city driving in it.

The fronts which were put on at the same time are like new. It's only the rears that are worn to the point of being racing slicks. I don't want to put new rears on every year !
You MUST find out what the tech set the alignment TO...

Good to hear the alignment was off, as that explains it...BUT..BMWs allowance on TOE is WAY TOO LARGE. You might still have toe specs that will give you very poor tire wear. GET THE PRINT OUT, POST IT. I need to see 'pre' and 'post' numbers to answer your question.

You got screwed on $149 for a 'rear end alignment'...criminal they didnt check all 4. I pay $99 for a great job and my tire shop...and they let me tell the precisely where I want the alignment to be set to
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  #6  
Old 10-21-2011, 03:06 PM
tdog47 tdog47 is offline
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The wear was pretty even but more heavy on the outer edges. And the right rear was more worn than the left.

I'm attaching a picture of the right rear. The right is worse than the left but not much. These are being replaced tomorrow (had to buy new rears) as it's way too early to put the winter setup on. 9k miles !
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  #7  
Old 10-21-2011, 03:22 PM
GPSnV1 GPSnV1 is offline
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  #8  
Old 10-21-2011, 04:42 PM
tdog47 tdog47 is offline
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ard -- here's the spec sheet from BMW rear end alignment. Let me know if anything looks funky or out of line. Thanks

Last edited by tdog47; 10-22-2011 at 01:20 PM.
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  #9  
Old 10-22-2011, 12:05 PM
RPsX5d RPsX5d is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdog47 View Post
I put some Continental DWS's on for the summer and only got 9000 miles. I have the staggered setup with 315's on the rear. Couple of questions to the forum: Is this expected tire life for the rears ? . . . .

Anybody do this with the 4.8 ? I have the 214 wheels. . . .
No this is not normal - you got less than half of what I got, and mine are RFTs!

I have the 214 wheels, staggered configuration, RFTs. Just replaced the factory-installed Dunlops with Bridgestone Duellers. I will get the alignment done next week - my BMW dealer charges $299 for a 4-wheel alignment . . . the tire guy I have been dealing with for the past 10 years recommended a local shop . . . yes they have the Hunter equipment that uses lasers to do the alignment (no chalk, set squares and plumb line - not dinging them, without the lasers, IMO more skill is required) and generates a report like the one you uploaded (thanks!) . . . $97 for the same 4-wheel alignment!

My factory-installed Dunlops lasted ~23,400 miles, got a bit loud toward the end! Did not rotate them - I have the staggered configuration.

Note - your rear right camber is -051' . . . mine was -148' before alignment and -131' after alignment. This "might" explain the excessive wear on the outer edge. (My before and after alignment info is included in the link below.)

Tires/alignment are not covered under BMW Warranty, and BMW dealers are not price competitive on tires or alignment.

You may find this thread informative . . . Setting Tire Alignment for Increased Grip versus Improved Wear

I will post my alignment report once I have it.

PS: You may want to redact your chassis number and name from the PDF you uploaded - folks on this forum all appear to be fine people - but it is always good to be safe. Just my two cents!

Last edited by RPsX5d; 10-22-2011 at 12:14 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2011, 01:22 PM
tdog47 tdog47 is offline
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Thanks.

Yeah, was concerned with posting that report but thought maybe I'd get some good feedback quickly and then remove it. Your post just hastened my decision to remove that. Can't trust anyone these days.
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  #11  
Old 10-22-2011, 02:36 PM
ard ard is online now
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Comments on the alignment:

The car was horribly misaligned...have you had this car from new? Accident history??

The rear cambers are a bit off- Left should be 0.02 and right 0.09...and they have left now MORE than right, but still withing spec- at 0.15 and 0.11. Then should have these the other way around, so to speak.

I still do not like the toe. They've increase your front toe- which is guaranteed to accelerate front wear...WHY?!?!? Just to hit bmw specs?... which are known to be flawed for max tire life.

Rear toe is more that is needed, just no point.

Finally a new car has a 2000mile warranty on alignment.... unfortunately even horrible alignments are not caught that soon
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  #12  
Old 10-22-2011, 02:59 PM
tdog47 tdog47 is offline
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No, not new, bought it with 18k miles in last year. Carfax showed no accidents.

Could it just have "worked itself into" the bad alignment ? The huge tires on the rear might hasten misalignment ? Don't know.

Anyway, got the new rears on with the new alignment. We'll see. Won't know until next summer as these will come off soon for the winter wheels/tires.

Thanks for feedback.
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  #13  
Old 10-22-2011, 08:30 PM
RPsX5d RPsX5d is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Comments on the alignment:

The car was horribly misaligned . . .

The rear cambers (did you mean toe?) are a bit off- Left should be 0.02 and right 0.09...and they have left now MORE than right, but still withing spec- at 0.15 and 0.11. Then should have these the other way around, so to speak.

I still do not like the toe. They've increase your front toe- which is guaranteed to accelerate front wear...WHY?!?!? Just to hit bmw specs?... which are known to be flawed for max tire life.

Rear toe is more that is needed, just no point. . . .
ard - did you mean "toe" (see above)? I thought X5 needed a negative camber greater than 1 degree . . . around -130' (-1.5). Are you suggesting 0.02 degree and 0.09 degree respectively for left and right "camber"?

Toe, from our other thread conversation, should be a tad negative (toe in) to compensate for suspension movement.

tdog47 - I wasn't suggesting you remove the entire wheel alignment report - just blank out info that identifies you/your X5. An easy way to do this - just print the report, fold back the upper third of the page, re-scan it and post it. Folks reading this thread will need your alignment figures to follow your, ard's and others comments.
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  #14  
Old 10-22-2011, 08:42 PM
tdog47 tdog47 is offline
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Yeah, I know. Just been too busy/lazy to do it. I will put re-post the report without the id info when I get a chance.

Thanks.

Here it is:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf X5 e70 wheel alignment.pdf (3.47 MB, 281 views)

Last edited by tdog47; 10-22-2011 at 08:48 PM.
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  #15  
Old 10-28-2012, 12:07 PM
jwchi jwchi is offline
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Opinion on 2008 E70 4.8i alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Comments on the alignment:

The car was horribly misaligned...have you had this car from new? Accident history??

The rear cambers are a bit off- Left should be 0.02 and right 0.09...and they have left now MORE than right, but still withing spec- at 0.15 and 0.11. Then should have these the other way around, so to speak.

I still do not like the toe. They've increase your front toe- which is guaranteed to accelerate front wear...WHY?!?!? Just to hit bmw specs?... which are known to be flawed for max tire life.

Rear toe is more that is needed, just no point.

Finally a new car has a 2000mile warranty on alignment.... unfortunately even horrible alignments are not caught that soon

Curious if you have an opinion for my 2008 E70 4.8i on 19'' on all four corners? Seems like the thread is consistently saying that BMW's spec isn't what it could be for good ride & increased tread life. What spec would you recommend?

Also, my SAV has the Sport button as well, does that change things in terms of the alignment?

Thanks!
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  #16  
Old 10-28-2012, 12:28 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwchi View Post
Curious if you have an opinion for my 2008 E70 4.8i on 19'' on all four corners? Seems like the thread is consistently saying that BMW's spec isn't what it could be for good ride & increased tread life. What spec would you recommend?

Also, my SAV has the Sport button as well, does that change things in terms of the alignment?

Thanks!
I think we had a thread about a similar issue, if you search for it, your guaranteed to find it. It was fairly recent.

BTW the sport button is to firm up the suspension control, no direct link between that and alignment, as its all mechanical down there.
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  #17  
Old 10-28-2012, 01:09 PM
macming macming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdog47 View Post
The wear was pretty even but more heavy on the outer edges. And the right rear was more worn than the left.

I'm attaching a picture of the right rear. The right is worse than the left but not much. These are being replaced tomorrow (had to buy new rears) as it's way too early to put the winter setup on. 9k miles !
That tire is worn down dangerously thin. I would've replaced it a long time ago. Judging the situation by this one picture only, I can think of three possilibities

1) the toe is set an extreme level, like greater than half an inch
2) the wear on the inside implies high negative camber, which I don't see from the static stance
3) extremely high tire pressure causing the center to bulge out. This is unlikely.

My guess is that your rear trailer arm bushing (RTAB) is worn out. Visually it may seem OK, but they tend to go before 60k miles. With a worn RTAB, your car will dynamically change its suspenion geoemtry throuhgout its travel, causing werid tire wear like you're experiencing. I strongly recommend you to get your RTAB replaced, and get another 4 wheel alignment (the alignment is knocked out when you replace your RTABs) for a piece of mind.
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2012, 02:50 PM
ard ard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwchi View Post
Curious if you have an opinion for my 2008 E70 4.8i on 19'' on all four corners? Seems like the thread is consistently saying that BMW's spec isn't what it could be for good ride & increased tread life. What spec would you recommend?

Also, my SAV has the Sport button as well, does that change things in terms of the alignment?

Thanks!

1. The "BMW Spec" is fine...but YOU want YOUR CAR set to a finer point within the wide "BMW Spec". Technically I call for a subset of the BMW spec, so in once sense it is still 'in spec', but as engineers know, a spec with tighter tolerances is not the precise 'same spec'. Semantics a bit...

2. As stated above, sport button has zero impact.

For best life I spec toe on all 4 wheels at 0.02 to (max) 0.03. Camber and caster at mid range, EQUAL (or close) on opposing sides.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:14 PM
jwchi jwchi is offline
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Thanks! I have been searching the forum and run across the 'spec' sheet and read many of your posts, Ard. When you say to set camber and caster "mid range", to you mean "as close to the target as possible"?

One question I still have is why would BMW spec the target on right and left camber and toe different than each other, even slightly off seems weird to me. Is this intentionally done for some reason? I see that you say keep them close to equal.

Last edited by jwchi; 10-28-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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  #20  
Old 10-03-2014, 12:59 AM
Feksake Feksake is offline
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Good thread but fell apart in confusion at the end.. please clarify

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Comments on the alignment:

The car was horribly misaligned...have you had this car from new? Accident history??

The rear cambers are a bit off- Left should be 0.02 and right 0.09...and they have left now MORE than right, but still withing spec- at 0.15 and 0.11. Then should have these the other way around, so to speak.

I still do not like the toe. They've increase your front toe- which is guaranteed to accelerate front wear...WHY?!?!? Just to hit bmw specs?... which are known to be flawed for max tire life.

Rear toe is more that is needed, just no point.

Finally a new car has a 2000mile warranty on alignment.... unfortunately even horrible alignments are not caught that soon
Degree can be expressed in decimal degrees or degrees and minutes. What did the guy say? "I use inches". So what does he recognise as inches.
Further to that the alignment printout shows both minutes and decimal degree values seemingly at random throughout the print out!.
It was a good thread until the last post showed that it was a load of bogus nonsense, very disapointing for all that need some good facts to get their X5,s set up properly.
Could someone put this subject back on track.
I have been advised by a BMW mechanic that took a great deal of interest in fine tuning alignmemt on x5s, he advised for total toe in at front of 12 to 15" minutes which is a mid point of 0.22 decimal degrees.
Any advances?
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  #21  
Old 10-03-2014, 09:26 AM
ard ard is online now
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Originally Posted by Feksake View Post
I have been advised by a BMW mechanic that took a great deal of interest in fine tuning alignmemt on x5s, ?
There is NOTHING special about x5s.

0.02 inches toe for each wheel max.

IMO

you want to go with what bmw recommends you will simply get less miles from your tires. No other handling difference.

Convert 0.02 inch to degrees you get 0.04 degrees. (i never use degrees...)


Your 'recommendation' of 0.22 degrees is 0.11 inch. WAY up there- towards the max spec. report back
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:15 AM
Feksake Feksake is offline
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Hi Thanks for responsE.
Still need some clarification.
If you use inches, i must presume that you do this as itcan be applied to any wheel size. In which case the larger diameter wheel, the smaller the angle, but the amount of toe would be the same. Do i understand this correctly?

You must be measuring the toe at the tread with reference to the opossing side of the tyre. In your calculation that would be 720mm diameter of tyre, largest measuerement tread to tread.. (28.4 inches)
Also 0.02 on each sie makes a total of 0.04 toe at the front (rear of front tyres to front of front tyres)

The kds 11 target data on the printout that i have is 18minutes total toe in, which on 20 inch rims measured as above gives a total toe of 0.148 inches. I have worn Michelin Diamaris tyres down to 3 to 4 mmm, lost the edge of thetyre completely but have resonably even wear across the rest of thetyre with a 1mm difference from outer to inner ( less the very edge of course) giving a mileage of around 15k miles to now. So its not a disaster at such a mileage on such a "severe" toe in setting is it?

I will be trying your settings and reducing camber at the rear if I have understood your suggestions and theway you measure.
I will be reporting back as I take regilar digital measurements on mynew set of Michelin lat s3s that cost me nearly a grand in GB pounds.

I know that there are many x5 owners that are shocked by the tyre wear and hope to get good advice, i hope i can contribute with some detailed facts.
Rgds
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  #23  
Old 10-05-2014, 09:02 AM
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Pat_X5 Pat_X5 is offline
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Usually tires on the rears of most BMWs will wear more heavily on the inside due to camber, but the OP tires are opposite.

Once the suspension parts have been checked out, can the OP use a neutral camber and give up the performance at high speeds ?
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  #24  
Old 10-05-2014, 09:37 AM
PAX5 PAX5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwchi View Post
... One question I still have is why would BMW spec the target on right and left camber and toe different than each other, even slightly off seems weird to me. Is this intentionally done for some reason? I see that you say keep them close to equal.
I don't know for a fact that BMW stipulates this ... but my guess would be to account for the "crown in the road"?

ARD: do you know?
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  #25  
Old 10-05-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PAX5 View Post
I don't know for a fact that BMW stipulates this ... but my guess would be to account for the "crown in the road"?

ARD: do you know?
I dont know that they do... I do know that the wide tolerance on camber means that they can be exactly the same and be fine and in spec.

TOE is what wears tires. Camber tells you WHERE it will occur. Do not minimize camber- minimize toe.
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