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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #26  
Old 11-06-2012, 05:05 PM
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Mark K Mark K is online now
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
I wouldn't quite agree with any of that. Ie. a diesel engine must be considerably larger to produce the same power. Ie. a 335d would be an equivalent of 328i, not 335i. 335i is over a second faster in a 0-60 dash and this is typically how we've come to compare car's power and performance (we don't usually compare torque in small cars as that's more applicable to other applications such as towing). A 335d would therefore be quite a bit more expensive than a 328i.
Sure, and you most definitely need hp to reach drag-limited speed in North America. C'mon, let's be serious here. We live in two countries where any kind of speed is a demon to be exorcised by the supernatural power of the uniformed priests and their radar guns.

What you really need is usability in this environment. Nothing beats a diesel in that case. Nothing, period.
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  #27  
Old 11-06-2012, 05:14 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Sure, and you most definitely need hp to reach drag-limited speed in North America. C'mon, let's be serious here. We live in two countries where any kind of speed is a demon to be exorcised by the supernatural power of the uniformed priests and their radar guns.
As you can tell I've pre-empted this response by saying "autobahn or some faster interstates". Specifically, I meant the 85mph and 80mph roads in Utah and Texas where you could probably quite safely do some hard accelerations to 110-115mph without immediately getting arrested. But even 0-60 is a full second quicker (335i vs 335d).

But I get your point, indeed, diesel often "feels" faster in day to day use. Drove one myself a lot in EU (1.9TD ford focus manual - what a joy to drive - it sucked in drag races though, big time...)
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  #28  
Old 11-06-2012, 06:48 PM
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Lets not forget that the current generation of diesels are in their infancy. The old cloud of dust, need a calendar to clock 0-60 time is behind us. Diesels will only continue to get better, and as Mr D mentioned if the government continues to offer incentives diesels will become more and more common. There great performance and unsurpassed reliability will only continue to get better. I for one, will definitely consider one provided BMW keep them as part of the US offerings.
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  #29  
Old 11-06-2012, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
I wouldn't quite agree with any of that. Ie. a diesel engine must be considerably larger to produce the same power. Ie. a 335d would be an equivalent of 328i, not 335i. 335i is over a second faster in a 0-60 dash and this is typically how we've come to compare car's power and performance (we don't usually compare torque in small cars as that's more applicable to other applications such as towing). A 335d would therefore be quite a bit more expensive than a 328i.

Diesel engine needs larger displacement to produce similar power. Likewise, a 4-cycle engine needs to be larger than a 2-cycle for comparable power.

This is most easily verified by studying performance numbers.

I do agree with Dunderhi, however, that in a typical city driving diesel will sure enough "feel" quicker, as RPM is typically low. Not so much on an autobahn though (or some faster interstates). There, torque loses its glamour and anything above 60mph is all about true power (where 335d would compete with 328i, not 335i). 335i leaves the diesel in the dust.
I have driven the E90 328i, 335i, and the 335d. I found the 335d was the most enjoyable of the three to drive. The 328i's lack of torque made it rather boring to drive. My 335d pulled straight to its speed limiter at 150mph. I seriously doubt the 328i would perform in the same manner.

BTW, the 0-60 times (the best from C&D and R&T) for the 328i, 335d and 335i times are 5.9s, 5.3s. and 4.7s. Going to the quarter mile for the 328i, 335d and 335i times are 14.6s@96mph, 13.8@101.3mph. and 13.3s@105.7mph. The combined EPA fuel economy for 328i, 335d and 335i are 22mpgs, 27mpgs, and 22mpgs. I know which cars has the best combination of performance AND efficiency in my book.
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  #30  
Old 11-06-2012, 07:15 PM
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MR D, almost 30 fill ups and close to 38 MPG - you must jump for joy at your decision when gas shoots up. Or rather Mrs D must since you have a 550i...
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  #31  
Old 11-06-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
As I learned personally, incentives and tax breaks can actually make diesels cheaper out the door.



I haven't seen much of a penalty at all, unless of course you don't think my 37.5mpgs combined is low.



True, but the same arguments have been made about power windows and power brakes.



Stock vs stock - the audio sound track in my 335d sounds much better than my 550. I had to pay Dinan $3,500 to give my 550 a decent sound track.
I'm not arguing any of this - if governments want to provide tax breaks and subsidies then clearly the market will respond favorably to that product. It's why Diesel was able to capture >50% market share in many European countries.

I personally love the early torque of a Diesel. I'm glad to hear you like the 335d, I've never been in one.

Anyway, Diesels will remain a niche market share until the feds or states step in and actively pushes consumers in that direction via incentives and fuel cost subsidies; and that ain't happening like it will for hybrids & electrification (for many right reasons, and many wrong reasons).
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  #32  
Old 11-06-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
I wouldn't quite agree with any of that. Ie. a diesel engine must be considerably larger to produce the same power. Ie. a 335d would be an equivalent of 328i, not 335i. 335i is over a second faster in a 0-60 dash and this is typically how we've come to compare car's power and performance (we don't usually compare torque in small cars as that's more applicable to other applications such as towing). A 335d would therefore be quite a bit more expensive than a 328i.

Diesel engine needs larger displacement to produce similar power. Likewise, a 4-cycle engine needs to be larger than a 2-cycle for comparable power.

This is most easily verified by studying performance numbers.

I do agree with Dunderhi, however, that in a typical city driving diesel will sure enough "feel" quicker, as RPM is typically low. Not so much on an autobahn though (or some faster interstates). There, torque loses its glamour and anything above 60mph is all about true power (where 335d would compete with 328i, not 335i). 335i leaves the diesel in the dust.
I didn't say anything about power. My point was about torque. Guess what makes acceleration? Not HP.

Sorry, I'm just a torque junkie. I've never lived in an area where I could wind out a car more than a gear or two. I love stomping on the throttle and gaining 20 MPH in the blink of an eye accompanied by that shove in the back.
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  #33  
Old 11-06-2012, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
Lets not forget that the current generation of diesels are in their infancy. The old cloud of dust, need a calendar to clock 0-60 time is behind us. Diesels will only continue to get better, and as Mr D mentioned if the government continues to offer incentives diesels will become more and more common. There great performance and unsurpassed reliability will only continue to get better. I for one, will definitely consider one provided BMW keep them as part of the US offerings.
I think you underestimate the technology advances in Diesel that have occurred over the past 20+ years. The engines on the road today have a ton of new technology implemented rapidly - yes further improvements will come, but it will be incremental. Meanwhile gasoline technology is going just as quickly - direct injection, compression ignition and many other cool things are happening that are delivering big returns.
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  #34  
Old 11-06-2012, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
MR D, almost 30 fill ups and close to 38 MPG - you must jump for joy at your decision when gas shoots up. Or rather Mrs D must since you have a 550i...
Mrs Dunderhi has become quite spoiled with her car. Even though the 335d can be frugal when asked, it's a lot of fun to drive hard. I borrow it from time-to-time to make sure everything is working okay or at least that's what I tell Mrs Dunderhi.
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  #35  
Old 11-06-2012, 07:50 PM
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Diesels have to come if BMW is to meet cafe standards.

I thought this was obvious.

Expect more 4 banger gas and diesel.
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  #36  
Old 11-06-2012, 10:27 PM
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Please release those torque beasts. I promise to take either 530d /or 535d.
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  #37  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:05 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I didn't say anything about power. My point was about torque. Guess what makes acceleration? Not HP.

Sorry, I'm just a torque junkie. I've never lived in an area where I could wind out a car more than a gear or two. I love stomping on the throttle and gaining 20 MPH in the blink of an eye accompanied by that shove in the back.
Yeah, me too, actually. I want the best of both worlds, though... Hence my choice of a turbocharged gasoline engine. Ridiculously low, powerful torque and a tonne of HP to complement it at the high end. I love this engine. V8 would be even better

I'd definitely give a 530d (or is it 535d) a try, but it'd almost have to be a manual. Not sure if diesel + auto makes a whole lot of sense (ie. when you stomp on it, the car will downshift, which may not be the best course of action given massive amount of torque ready to work?). Don't know. I've only driven a manual and it was a joy. X5 35d 6sp auto was kinda boring.
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  #38  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
Yeah, me too, actually. I want the best of both worlds, though... Hence my choice of a turbocharged gasoline engine. Ridiculously low, powerful torque and a tonne of HP to complement it at the high end. I love this engine. V8 would be even better

I'd definitely give a 530d (or is it 535d) a try, but it'd almost have to be a manual. Not sure if diesel + auto makes a whole lot of sense (ie. when you stomp on it, the car will downshift, which may not be the best course of action given massive amount of torque ready to work?). Don't know. I've only driven a manual and it was a joy. X5 35d 6sp auto was kinda boring.
I'd appreciate the 8spd auto coupled to a d
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  #39  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:38 PM
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You want your 530 D with the ZF 8HP70.
Believe me, I know.
With SAT this combination is just phenomenal.
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  #40  
Old 11-07-2012, 10:17 AM
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manual in 530d or 535d does not make any sense. the gears are too short, the engine has too much torque. I always drove manuals until I tried 530d manual. Fortunately, after the test drive in manual, I bought 530dA
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  #41  
Old 11-07-2012, 10:36 AM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Totally a pipe dream here, but I hope they don't include auto-start-stop tech on the new d (but im pretty sure they would). And please include enough isolation from the idle diesel clatter. It would be much appreciated.
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  #42  
Old 11-07-2012, 10:40 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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manual in 530d or 535d does not make any sense. the gears are too short, the engine has too much torque. I always drove manuals until I tried 530d manual. Fortunately, after the test drive in manual, I bought 530dA
Would a massive amount of torque speak precisely for getting a manual? Ie. you're cruising in the 4th around town, stomp on it... and it goes? Automatic would attempt to downshift most likely...?

Just speculating here, but kinda makes sense doesn't it? Why downshift if torque is available? Just floor it and zoom off in the same gear?
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  #43  
Old 11-07-2012, 10:44 AM
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the first three gears are too short. I was driving mostly in the city back in europe - it means a lot of shifting if you are not a fan of high revs (I am not)
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  #44  
Old 11-07-2012, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
Totally a pipe dream here, but I hope they don't include auto-start-stop tech on the new d (but im pretty sure they would). And please include enough isolation from the idle diesel clatter. It would be much appreciated.
Common rail diesel injection systems are much much quieter than previous technology
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  #45  
Old 11-07-2012, 11:12 AM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Common rail diesel injection systems are much much quieter than previous technology
I realize that, but when I was at the Team USA event, the dealer had a 335d and X5d. Sitting in the 335d, it was aurally quite nice, couldn't tell I was in a Diesel. However same drive in the X5d, the idle speeds indicated I was in a diesel, whereas highway speed i couldn't tell the difference.

This isnt a just one time thing, many others have posted similar experiences, and I think Mike aka Emissions had some good points about how the injectors on the X5d dont have any isolation material and the space where the engine is much more larger and thus emptier allowing to act like a acoustic chamber

Heres the Link: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...am#post7061439.
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  #46  
Old 11-07-2012, 11:33 AM
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I agree, X5d is pretty loud (the technology is approx. 6 years old and available only in the US). 5 series diesel is much better, it is not so easy to recognize whether you are driving gas or diesel
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  #47  
Old 11-07-2012, 11:48 AM
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I agree, X5d is pretty loud (the technology is approx. 6 years old and available only in the US)...
What do you mean? The same injection system is in use in all modern BMW diesels.
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  #48  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:02 PM
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I mean generally the engine M57 - the engine (its sound, etc.) is not only the injection system

I believe that BMW diesels available in other countries have newer CR system (I am not 100% sure about this, only 99%)
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  #49  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:18 PM
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Same engine in the 335d and X5 d, so any acoustic difference is going to be with sound insulation. The CR system for all BMW d's is the same, essentially.
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  #50  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:24 PM
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X5d is higher than 335d and this is one of the reasons why X5d is louder

I googled 2 minutes - it appears that M57 has 1600 bar CR system, N57 has 1800 or 2000 bar CR system
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