Dinan stage 2 on 650 MY12

Originally Posted by Itinj6

John, I can't really tell a difference between gear lever to the left only vs gear lever to the left in Sport mode. It's probably because you lose that lighter sensitivity in Sport mode which make you press harder on the pedal giving more feedback, I dunno.

I like Sport mode because it gives that extra exhaust growl... Which brings me to my next question. Do you have M-Sport and if so, have you noticed the car is a little louder? Or is that just me?

No M sport here... I noticed the exhaust valves opens and closes more often, even on normal mode. One thing this mod make me wonder, a 650 x drive w/ M package with Dinan vs M6...tough call ain't it? Hydraulic drive and 4 wheels to deal with all the torque for 30 k less with far better insurance premiums

Ill be searching for a new exhaust anyway. Contenders are eisenmann, gthaus and maybe oem M muffler (not sure if it fits). The former has a very nice growl...

Originally Posted by john mclane

One thing this mod make me wonder, a 650 x drive w/ M package with Dinan vs M6...tough call ain't it? Hydraulic drive and 4 wheels to deal with all the torque for 30 k less with far better insurance premiums

+1 Especially when you think about a 2013 that closes the gap even more.

I'm outta my league here, but will Dinan on a 2013 be able to even better on the '13s than the '12s, or did BMW do their own "Dinan" to get some of the extra 40 hp and 30 lb-ft? I know the valvetronic is different from what Dinan does, but I'm wondering if the '13s can expect the same increase in power/torque as the '12s? Pardon my ignorance lol.

I can't wait to drive the M6 on the track in January to gain a better understanding of the car.

Originally Posted by southern6er22

but will Dinan on a 2013 be able to even better on the '13s than the '12s, or did BMW do their own "Dinan" to get some of the extra 40 hp and 30 lb-ft? I know the valvetronic is different from what Dinan does, but I'm wondering if the '13s can expect the same increase in power/torque as the '12s? Pardon my ignorance lol.

That's going to be the million dollar question for sure.

Anticipating the 2013 Dinan release to be in the Spring and we will then know. Now my guess is just a bit less, I mean how much HP can that auto trans take and what will BMW allow primarily for warrenty issues. Don't think we will really see a plus 95 HP gain to 501 HP as the 2012 was offered. For the 2013 I'm thinking a plus 85 HP is doable for a total of 530 HP.

Any thoughts on this?

I have a 2013 650i Gran Coupe xDrive with the N63TU engine...if Dinan can take me from 445hp to 540 I'll be at my dealer the day this is available!!!!! An extra 85hp would still be amazing. Now the question is....how long are they going to take to release this?????

I seriously doubt Dinan's gains will be the same on the N63Tu engine as compared to the N63. Valvetronic is a high tech valve-lift based throttling system. By itself, it does very little actually increase HP. It does reduce pumping losses and intake pressure surging thereby improving throttle response and emissions (and perhaps a little efficiency but who cares). My guess is the bulk of the HP increase on the Tu comes from increased boost, which is all that Dinan is doing (along with the necessary remapping of fuel, spark and cam timing). The question is how much boost can the N63/N62Tu take without risking reliability (best case) or damage (worst case).

As SD said, theres also the question of how much torque can the rest of the drivetrain can tolerate. Southy was basically correct in his statement that BMW did what Dinan does - raise the boost. I am also of the opinion that like most BMW engines, the N63 is stronger than the marketing info suggests. My estimate is 420HP for the N63. I haven't looked into the Tu yet. Perhaps some of the increase is simply a more accurate publication of its HP.

I think Dinan is more than just boost. You can feel the power right away before the turbos even spool up during the lag period. It just lurches right from the start. The car just feels like it shaved a ton off its weight.

My non-Dinan has no discernible lag. That's the beauty of the "hot-V" turbo set up. My guess is what you're feeling is throttle mapping changes. There's no magic in software. Given the same intake, exhaust and displacement, the pre-boost torque output at a given rpm is the same. Perhaps a bit of tweaking on the cam timing has made some difference, but not as much as simply opening the throttles faster.

BTW Itinj6. I was in NJ last weekend for my nephew's BM. My sister lives near Princeton. Had a blast, but the drive from Newark sucked.

Originally Posted by Bönz

My non-Dinan has no discernible lag. That's the beauty of the "hot-V" turbo set up. My guess is what you're feeling is throttle mapping changes. There's no magic in software. Given the same intake, exhaust and displacement, the pre-boost torque output at a given rpm is the same. Perhaps a bit of tweaking on the cam timing has made some difference, but not as much as simply opening the throttles faster.

BTW Itinj6. I was in NJ last weekend for my nephew's BM. My sister lives near Princeton. Had a blast, but the drive from Newark sucked.

I understand what you're saying, but I can actually feel when the turbos spool up enough to get a boost before and after the tune. It's definitely more prominent with the tune though. I would say it's a combination of the things you mention above and not just increased boost. I may be wrong, but I'm going by feel. You just tap on the gas now and the car goes. The pedal feels very sensitive now as well. Before, I felt like it needed more effort to get it going.

Did you take I-95? It's usually free flowing. Congrats to your nephew for becoming a man... Mazel Tov!

On a side note, I just had H&R Lowering Springs installed and some coding done. I feel like I lost my Dinan Tune. I called the dealership that installed the tune and they said they will check it out. I have an appointment for that on Monday. Hopefully it does actually need a re-flash and its not me getting used to it lol. I'm sure it feels stock again though. Dinan specialist at the dealership said it's possible they did something with the electronics when they installed the springs.

Damn. If y'all keep this thread going, I might actually know something about engines before long. lol. As usual, Bönz's responses on these issues are very thorough and educational - puts my leather and electronics fluff write-ups to shame.

Just had Stage 3 Dinan installed on my '12 650iC. Had car dyno'd before and after;

Stock: 328 WHP on dyno, 18% loss to wheels calculates to 400 hp stock at the flywheel
Stage 3: 457 WHP on dyno. Calculates to 539 hp at flywheel, with Dinan exhaust

I will post the pull sheets w torque once I get them next week.

Really impressed with the performance on the 650. The lighter weight of the car makes it break traction now with every gear change during wide-open throttle. And the exhaust note is awesome... Not too much but definitely aggressive. There is no throttle lag and drivability is fantastic. This is not cheap HP but you definitely get performance with software and bolt on exhaust! This is how this car should have been set up from the beginning!! And it drives fantastic!

On a side note, I also have a 7 series that previously had stage 2, which had to be reinstalled after dealer erased during software upgrade recently. After the reinstall, I noticed a definite throttle lag, almost a two-step process during light acceleration that wasn't there before. Dinan said that this was due to the vehicle adapting after the complete software reinstall. I never noticed that the first time around however. Now that I installed the stage 3 with exhaust, there is no lag on the 7 whatsoever so I'm not sure that I'm buying the compatibility of stage II with the new BMW software. Unfortunately, I couldn't dyno the 7 as well as it's a long wheelbase, and would not fit on their four-wheel-drive dyne.

I wonder if the transmission has to be reset.

Originally Posted by haastx10

Stock: 328 WHP on dyno, 18% loss to wheels calculates to 400 hp stock at the flywheel
Stage 3: 457 WHP on dyno. Calculates to 539 hp at flywheel, with Dinan exhaust

Holy $h!t, those are some impressive numbers! Anyone have some real world 0-60 times for the Dinan?

Originally Posted by haastx10

Stock: 328 WHP on dyno, 18% loss to wheels calculates to 400 hp stock at the flywheel
Stage 3: 457 WHP on dyno. Calculates to 539 hp at flywheel, with Dinan exhaust

I think what you meant to say is IF stock crank HP is 400, then 328 at the wheels calculates to an 18% drivetrain loss. But since we don't really know crank HP, we cannot accurately calculate drivetrain loss. Although 18% is a realistic figure, there is no hard fast rule for this sort of thing especially with complex modern drivetrains (not to mention the frictional and inertial effects of the dynomometer itself).

Your Dinan calculation is backwards, as you took 18% of the 457 and added it to 457. Assuming the DT loss is linear (which it is not), your Dinan HP at the crank would calculate to 557. Dinan's figure for stage 3 with exhaust is 511, which at an 18% loss means 419WHP - which seems more reasonable.

There are many different kinds of Chassis Dynos and without getting into details, the best information to get from these machines is before and after (at the driven wheels). What your dyno work shows is a 39% increase in WHP which seems highly unlikely. Assuming the 328 stock number is accurate, a 28% increase from 328 to 419 seems more likely. This also matches Dinan's crank HP increase exactly, from 400 to 511, a 28% increase.

Notice also that Dinan's torque increase is about 22% (450 to 550) and there's no peak torque difference between stage 2 and stage 3. Engines produce torque - HP is calculated as a function of torque and RPM. Clearly the exhaust change effects the torque curve, NOT peak output, which makes sense on a turbochaged engine. This also explains the increase in peak HP (versus torque) as it all has to do with the torque curve.

All that said, I would love to have a 28% increase in HP. Hell, I'd settle for 10%. But I just cannot justify the $$. The stock car is more than adequate. Other vehicles are just obstacles on the road. The power just flows so easily from this car, it never ceases to amaze me. And I'm coming out of an M3.

Can't wait to see your dyno graphs. Bottom line, if you recall basic calculus, it's the area under the curve that matters - not the peaks. This is why the flat torque curves of BMW's turbo engines feel so strong. And why, I suspect, it advertises as such (ie. 480/2000-4500).

Originally Posted by Bönz

Notice also that Dinan's torque increase is about 22% (450 to 550) and there's no peak torque difference between stage 2 and stage 3. Engines produce torque - HP is calculated as a function of torque and RPM. Clearly the exhaust change effects the torque curve, peak output, which makes sense on a turbochaged engine. This also explains the higher increase in peak HP (versus torque) as it all has to do with the torque curve.

Great infomation. Bonz I believe Dinan's quoting a 580 TQ @ 3500rpm for the Stage 2 that calculates to a 29% (450 to 580) increase.

Originally Posted by southern6er22

Damn. If y'all keep this thread going, I might actually know something about engines before long. lol. As usual, Bönz's responses on these issues are very thorough and educational - puts my leather and electronics fluff write-ups to shame.

We love you fluff write-ups, don't stop.............

Originally Posted by ShakeDaddy

Great infomation. Bonz I believe Dinan's quoting a 580 TQ @ 3500rpm for the Stage 2 that calculates to a 29% (450 to 580) increase.

You are correct. My bad. I misread it. All the Dinan peaks line up. Thanks for the correction.

Originally Posted by haastx10

Just had Stage 3 Dinan installed on my '12 650iC. Had car dyno'd before and after;

Stock: 328 WHP on dyno, 18% loss to wheels calculates to 400 hp stock at the flywheel
Stage 3: 457 WHP on dyno. Calculates to 539 hp at flywheel, with Dinan exhaust

I will post the pull sheets w torque once I get them next week.

Really impressed with the performance on the 650. The lighter weight of the car makes it break traction now with every gear change during wide-open throttle. And the exhaust note is awesome... Not too much but definitely aggressive. There is no throttle lag and drivability is fantastic. This is not cheap HP but you definitely get performance with software and bolt on exhaust! This is how this car should have been set up from the beginning!! And it drives fantastic!

On a side note, I also have a 7 series that previously had stage 2, which had to be reinstalled after dealer erased during software upgrade recently. After the reinstall, I noticed a definite throttle lag, almost a two-step process during light acceleration that wasn't there before. Dinan said that this was due to the vehicle adapting after the complete software reinstall. I never noticed that the first time around however. Now that I installed the stage 3 with exhaust, there is no lag on the 7 whatsoever so I'm not sure that I'm buying the compatibility of stage II with the new BMW software. Unfortunately, I couldn't dyno the 7 as well as it's a long wheelbase, and would not fit on their four-wheel-drive dyne.

So here are the numbers from the Dyno. The legend to the graphs is on the right. I in fact was wrong... the car actually produced 405 WHP Pre, and 457 WHP Post Dinan Stage 3. I understand that these cars are notoriously under rated by BMW. So irregardless of the actual HP, and how much it is influenced by relative humidity and other factors, we are looking at about 50 hp increase and I'm telling you the car drives GREAT! I confirmed the numbers with Dinan and they said it is "Spot on"! That is the bottom line! I have yet to find anybody post actual Dyno numbers of their cars on this site... but there are lots of people out there that talk theory...

I find it odd that the crossover point is different in each graph.

Originally Posted by haastx10

So here are the numbers from the Dyno. The legend to the graphs is on the right. I in fact was wrong... the car actually produced 405 WHP Pre, and 457 WHP Post Dinan Stage 3. I understand that these cars are notoriously under rated by BMW. So irregardless of the actual HP, and how much it is influenced by relative humidity and other factors, we are looking at about 50 hp increase and I'm telling you the car drives GREAT! I confirmed the numbers with Dinan and they said it is "Spot on"! That is the bottom line! I have yet to find anybody post actual Dyno numbers of their cars on this site... but there are lots of people out there that talk theory...

Thanks for the plots. Too bad the ordinates aren't scaled the same for a more direct comparison. A 10% increase makes sense for an exhaust and boost increase. I would have thought a little more actually.

If you are referring to my posts as "...talk theory", I think you need to re-read them. My points are not theoretical, they are factual. When I am making assumptions for discussion's sake, I say so. Bottom line is I was right. Both about BMW understating HP and about Dinan not adding 40%. Even my comment about settling for a 10% increase was prophetic.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, I am just trying to discuss our cars (a little tech to Southy's fluff, BTW, thanks for the complement). If I did so I apologize. We are on the same team and I am happy for you. I would love to add some HP, but I cannot justify spending 3 or 4 grand on a lease. Good luck and congratulations.

Originally Posted by Bönz

Thanks for the plots. Too bad the ordinates aren't scaled the same for a more direct comparison. A 10% increase makes sense for an exhaust and boost increase. I would have thought a little more actually.

If you are referring to my posts as "...talk theory", I think you need to re-read them. My points are not theoretical, they are factual. When I am making assumptions for discussion's sake, I say so. Bottom line is I was right. Both about BMW understating HP and about Dinan not adding 40%. Even my comment about settling for a 10% increase was prophetic.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, I am just trying to discuss our cars (a little tech to Southy's fluff, BTW, thanks for the complement). If I did so I apologize. We are on the same team and I am happy for you. I would love to add some HP, but I cannot justify spending 3 or 4 grand on a lease. Good luck and congratulations.

That's exactly how I feel about the Dinan - fine is I'm buying, no way on a lease. Why would I want to put big money into something I don't own and have to turn in 3 years from now?

Originally Posted by mrjoed2

That's exactly how I feel about the Dinan - fine is I'm buying, no way on a lease. Why would I want to put big money into something I don't own and have to turn in 3 years from now?

Why get any options on a lease then if you have to return it anyway? Dinan might be a little expensive but nobody seems to have any issues paying BMW $650 for a few pieces of ceramic. Are you kidding me lol

The way I see it, I am paying the $3K as if it's a performance option. $3K divided by 3 years is $1K per year which comes out to $83 a month. I have no problem paying that to enjoy the tune for three years. No different than enjoying my M-Sport or ARS for 3 years.

A stock 650 is plenty sufficient but it just feels sluggish next to a stage 2.

If could residualize the 3k at 62% like the rest of the car, I would consider it. Likewise, if it only cost about 1k, I would consider it. It's just not worth 3k to me. To each his own. Besides, I had to spend $2500 on a winter set of shoes - not as much fun as 50HP but a necessity in Michigan.

Originally Posted by Bönz

If could residualize the 3k at 62% like the rest of the car, I would consider it. Likewise, if it only cost about 1k, I would consider it. It's just not worth 3k to me. To each his own. Besides, I had to spend $2500 on a winter set of shoes - not as much fun as 50HP but a necessity in Michigan.

Absolutely. Some people prefer aesthetics, some prefer performance. I like a mix. I wouldnt get coilovers, but i did get springs. I would get the nappa dash or ceramic controls, but I got my wheels powdercoated the way I like.

The great thing is that there are options out there for everyone

Originally Posted by haastx10

So here are the numbers from the Dyno. The legend to the graphs is on the right. I in fact was wrong... the car actually produced 405 WHP Pre, and 457 WHP Post Dinan Stage 3. I understand that these cars are notoriously under rated by BMW. So irregardless of the actual HP, and how much it is influenced by relative humidity and other factors, we are looking at about 50 hp increase and I'm telling you the car drives GREAT! I confirmed the numbers with Dinan and they said it is "Spot on"! That is the bottom line! I have yet to find anybody post actual Dyno numbers of their cars on this site... but there are lots of people out there that talk theory...

Agree the BMW engines are factory under-rated but no way a stock 2012 engine is over-rated by BMW 100+ HP.

With your 405 WHP Pre Stage III we are looking at 510 HP at the crank/engine with a modest 20% drive train loss.

Also where did you get that first 328 WHP Pre-Stage III number?

Originally Posted by ShakeDaddy

Agree the BMW engines are factory under-rated but no way a stock 2012 engine is over-rated by BMW 100+ HP.

With your 405 WHP Pre Stage III we are looking at 510 HP at the crank/engine with a modest 20% drive train loss.

Also where did you get that first 328 WHP Pre-Stage III number?

I agree SD. The graphs are actually labeled "eng torque" and "eng HP" if you look close. I assumed the dyno shop is using some kind of algorithm to convert. I would suggest, however, that 20% loss is high for these cars, even at peak. But your point is valid.

405 and 457 do sound like realistic crank HP numbers pre and post Dinan.