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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 11-11-2012, 08:23 PM
EIAlfonso EIAlfonso is offline
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X5 msport more aggressive than F10

I've been driving an X5 MSport loaner the last few days and I keep thinking why isn't the f10 more like this

The wheels and tires are much more aggressive (315)s in the rears
The steering feels much more weighted
Exhaust is sportier and most importantly the suspension is incredibly firm, a bit to firm but one should expect this if you get a Msport, unless its an f10

You would think a sedan would be treated with the sportier version but not in this case
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  #2  
Old 11-11-2012, 08:32 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Based on E60 chassis, hydraulic steering, older front suspension setup.
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  #3  
Old 11-11-2012, 09:19 PM
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alewifebp alewifebp is offline
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I had an E70 X5, no sport or M sport packages. It also rode incredibly firm. But it did handle very well.
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  #4  
Old 11-11-2012, 09:41 PM
Alan L. Alan L. is offline
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Try driving a 335. Handles incredibly well and the steering is extremely heavy but the car also rides like garbage if the roads have any imperfections on it. There's always a trade off.

Alan
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2012, 11:04 PM
smashhell smashhell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L. View Post
Try driving a 335. Handles incredibly well and the steering is extremely heavy but the car also rides like garbage if the roads have any imperfections on it. There's always a trade off.

Alan
Yep would not trade my car for a F30 even if it's an M3.
The ride for the new 335is just way too harsh IMO.
Ever plot hole feels like it's gonna break the car.
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:49 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EIAlfonso View Post
I've been driving an X5 MSport loaner the last few days and I keep thinking why isn't the f10 more like this

The wheels and tires are much more aggressive (315)s in the rears
The steering feels much more weighted
Exhaust is sportier and most importantly the suspension is incredibly firm, a bit to firm but one should expect this if you get a Msport, unless its an f10

You would think a sedan would be treated with the sportier version but not in this case
My wife drives an X5, about the only thing that I'd agree on is that the steering feels more weighted, and note that I agree with weighted but not responsive.

Maybe the perceived differences arise from 550 vs. 535, but this just doesn't ring true.
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:51 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
My wife drives an X5, about the only thing that I'd agree on is that the steering feels more weighted, and note that I agree with weighted but not responsive.

Maybe the perceived differences arise from 550 vs. 535, but this just doesn't ring true.
Some people equate "heavy" with "feel". Which is a fallacy.

The new Ferraris have been noted for having hyper light steering, but full of feel.

Same with our cars when the steering weight is increased. It's just heavier, not more full of feel.
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Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the cars are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:08 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Some people equate "heavy" with "feel". Which is a fallacy.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
The new Ferraris have been noted for having hyper light steering, but full of feel.
Haven't driven one (would love to), but have read the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Same with our cars when the steering weight is increased. It's just heavier, not more full of feel.
Some might say that 'full of feel' can equate to extraneous noise. I've driven few cars with such a rigid chassis as the 5, very consistent behavior because of that rigidness, subtle is fine on feedback.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:41 AM
Alan L. Alan L. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post

Same with our cars when the steering weight is increased. It's just heavier, not more full of feel.
Couldn't agree with you more on this. For me switching from Comfort to Sport mode the steering does feel heavier but there is no more feel. In fact the heavyness feels artificial in the F10.

Granted i still prefer this setup over my E90 which felt awesome if you are driving on a smooth road tossing the car into fast corners but once you hit any bumps or dips the car pounds the hell out of you. Sometimes it hits so hard you would swear the chassis would crack or the windshield would break.

Alan
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:16 AM
EIAlfonso EIAlfonso is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Based on E60 chassis, hydraulic steering, older front suspension setup.
Whatever the reasons you would think a person buying a MSport BMW sedan expects it to be less floaty than a SUV, at least that was my expectation.

I could even hear the turbo more so than the 5, I think the exhaust was the biggest difference, maybe some of it is psychological

I have hydraulic steering btw
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  #11  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:25 AM
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Decboy Decboy is offline
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It's just a matter of opinion. My wife drives the X5 majority of the time. Once I put the F10 to Sport+ the ride is good enough for me. Also, I have DDC so the suspension does firm up a bit. I may be the only one to say this, but I prefer the steering on the F10 over the X5. The hydraulic steering is a bit too tight similar to the E92 my wife had before. It was a good match on the E92 but on a car as big and wide as the X5, it takes some effort to move around tight spots. I often catch my wife negotiating turns into a parking spot. While the E60 did have hydraulic steering too, it was more forgiving than the E92. I find the F10 be a balance probably due to the fact I got used to the electric steering.

The F10 is also in the luxury mid size segment while the X5 is on the sport activity segment so there's gonna be that difference. It'll be interesting to see what BMW will do with the new 2014 X5 coming out.

I don't think you can fit 315 rears on the F10's wheel well without spacers of some sort.
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  #12  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:04 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EIAlfonso View Post
Whatever the reasons you would think a person buying a MSport BMW sedan expects it to be less floaty than a SUV, at least that was my expectation.

I could even hear the turbo more so than the 5, I think the exhaust was the biggest difference, maybe some of it is psychological

I have hydraulic steering btw
Just telling you the physical reasons, not the marketing ones. BMW went deliberately soft for this generation. It takes all the options to get it back to where the E60 was.
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Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the cars are German, the lovers are Italian and it is all organised by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the cars are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians

Last edited by Needsdecaf; 11-12-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2012, 08:59 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Light steering has less feel than naturally loaded steering. When you turn the wheel the tires naturally strives to go straight and this force transmits to the steering. The more of this force that is passed through the "heavier" the steering feels. Factors like speed and grip determines the force on the tires and factors like the power assist boost and steering geometry determines how much force reaches the steering wheel. Light steering has less dynamic range and thereby reduces this aspect of feel. The steering feels more "numb".
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  #14  
Old 11-13-2012, 09:35 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Light steering has less feel than naturally loaded steering. When you turn the wheel the tires naturally strives to go straight and this force transmits to the steering. The more of this force that is passed through the "heavier" the steering feels. Factors like speed and grip determines the force on the tires and factors like the power assist boost and steering geometry determines how much force reaches the steering wheel. Light steering has less dynamic range and thereby reduces this aspect of feel. The steering feels more "numb".
The ultimate test of this is actually to drive an F10 AWD (with hydraulic steering), an F10 RWD (with electric assist), and then either the M5 and/or M6 (which does not include the rubber bushings).

For those of you that are truly unbiased, it will challenge some of the definitions being thrown about; light, heavy, feel, numb, subtle, etc. It will also show you that other makers (Ferrari and Porsche) see some of the same things that BMW does.
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  #15  
Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 AM
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Mr. Grumpy Mr. Grumpy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EIAlfonso View Post
The wheels and tires are much more aggressive (315)s in the rears
I've been asking my CA the same thing for a while. I know that the F10 would look sexier with wider shoes
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  #16  
Old 11-13-2012, 11:15 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EIAlfonso View Post
I've been driving an X5 MSport loaner the last few days and I keep thinking why isn't the f10 more like this

The wheels and tires are much more aggressive (315)s in the rears
The steering feels much more weighted
Exhaust is sportier and most importantly the suspension is incredibly firm, a bit to firm but one should expect this if you get a Msport, unless its an f10

You would think a sedan would be treated with the sportier version but not in this case
The E70 is a fantastic SUV as far as driving dynamics go. I would not have hesitated buying one even in it's last model year if it wasn't for the nagging fuel delivery issues with the FI engines. We need a reliable SUV so this time the contract went to Porsche. The steering on the Cayenne has nice feel as long as you omit the variable assist Servotronic that IMO ruins the feel by over boosting it at city speeds.

Rumors has it that one of the main goals with the F10 LCI is to "re-engineer" the steering for more feel. It will be interesting to see the result and what that will entitle. Whatever the result it's good to hear that it could be a priority.

Last edited by solstice; 11-13-2012 at 11:40 AM.
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