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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 11-15-2012, 07:15 PM
racooper3 racooper3 is offline
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Talking How can we help BMW USA/AG make a better car...

Gang, These problems with tranny, and engine fluid leaks remind me of the crappy quality Harley Davidson motorcycles had back when AMF owned the company. All the cost cutting under AMF reduced the quality of the H-D brand. It was joke if you had a H-D motorcycle that didn't leak oil or other fluids. Their customers balked and the product got better.

I suspect the Quandt family is really milking BMW for bottom line and dividends and don't really give a rats a$$ about the Overall quality of the BMW cars anymore. All this engineering and electronics is just $hit if the dealers are too scared to program them for fear of bricking a module during the process. All these biodegradable gaskets and the fluid seal design in a "Green" BMW is causing all these fluid leak issues. "Green" is garbage for the owners over 4yr/50k miles.

It is about time we all start an organized group to lobby BMW on these issues and be relentless in our pursuit of an ultimate driving machine, that is easily serviced by loyal enthusist owners. They need to have input from us as to how the damn thing is put together. After my e60 issues and the lack of ability to replace/repair all the rubber seals without taking half the engine apart for timing cover and valve cover gaskets has left me with a very sour taste in my mouth. These Germans have gotten a bit cocky in how they think and design cars. We need them to simplify the design and enhance the quality. Not the other way around. Anyone game for getting an online forum or thread started to lobby BMW USA and BMW AG to listen to our gripes about the car design and general quality issues. I suspect that many of us have the experience and desire to improve our BMWs and I bet our feedback can go a long way toward making BMW a better car. I don't care about the asthetic design of the autos as that changes with the wind and who is in charge of design. I do care about the quality, craftsmanship and drivability, with servicability in mind.

Any BMW enthusist attorneys out there who can help us get something started? A blueprint to follow to get BMW USA and BMW AG to take our concerns and feedback seriously.

Last edited by racooper3; 11-19-2012 at 06:16 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #2  
Old 11-15-2012, 07:53 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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If you want a simple car, get a domestic. When building/designing a car that's ahead of its time, there will be issues as you mention. Every other car maker is following in the same steps. Cars in general are just as difficult to maintain. German cars are usually one decade ahead in the technology department.
For example, check Lexus. All of a sudden they think the can build sporty cars yet maintain their reputation for reliability? No. When a car is deemed sporty, people drive them as such. Another company is Hyundai. They have a very strict maintenance program. Don't even think about the guarantee market value for the car if it wasn't serviced at a certified shop. Basically these automotive companies are in it for money, and if you allow the car to be serviced easily at some mom and pop shop up the street easily, bankruptcy would be inevitable.
I always maintain that most of the BMW problems are related to punishing the cars yet not wanting to come off any money for repairs, and I see this a lot.
BMW themselves have gone mad in the name calling of their cars lately, but honestly that's about it. The market calls for what they are putting out. They are not currently number one for nothing.
Just my two cents.
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  #3  
Old 11-15-2012, 08:32 PM
wessew wessew is offline
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Well, I would not agree regarding Lexus. There lineup of sporty cars including the GS are still at the top of the heap in terms of reliability despite being driven more aggressively. From a sample of one, I have owned a GS and now own a 550i. I much prefer the 550i in terms of driveablility, but the GS was far more reliable. The GS was in the shop twice in three years for unscheduled maintenance for minor issues despite being driven hard. My 550i has seen unscheduled service at a frequency three times as great and the issues were more serious. I can tell already I won't be able to afford the car once it goes out of warranty.
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  #4  
Old 11-17-2012, 03:54 PM
hooch999 hooch999 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racooper3 View Post


It is about time we all start an organized group to hammer BMW on these issues and be relentless in our pursuit of an ultimate driving machine, that is easily service by loyal enthusist owners. They need to have input from us as to how the damn thing is put together. After my e60 issues and the lack of ability to replace/repair all the rubber seals without taking half the engine apart for timing cover and valve cover gaskets has left me with a very sour taste in my mouth. These Germans have gotten a bit cocky in how they think and design cars. We need them to simplify the design and enhance the quality. Not the other way around. Anyone game for getting an online forum or thread started to lobby BMW USA and BMW AG to listen to our gripes about the car design and general quality issues. I suspect that many of us have the experience and desire to improve our BMWs and I bet our feedback can go a long way toward making BMW a better car. I don't care about the asthetic design of the autos as that changes with the wind and who is in charge of design. I do care about the quality, craftmanship and drivability, with servicability in mind.

Any BWM enthusist attorneys out there who can help us get something started? A blueprint to follow to get BMW USA and BMW AG to take our concerns and feedback seriously.

So far BMW sales has been hitting all time highs - they don't need people like you telling them how to make better cars, they know that better than you do.
As to high cost to maintain - you pay to play. besides I bet you bought your car used because new 545i would be far out of your budget. So stop complaining and next time buy what you can REALLY afford.
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  #5  
Old 11-17-2012, 04:33 PM
UltimateDriving UltimateDriving is online now
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Hahahaha you guys are mean. IMO any car is reliable as long as you give it proper maintenance and do not neglect the car.
The difference is that Japanese cars can handle abuse but that's all, german cars are realible as others if you take care of it.
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2012, 04:48 PM
racooper3 racooper3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooch999 View Post
So far BMW sales has been hitting all time highs - they don't need people like you telling them how to make better cars, they know that better than you do.
As to high cost to maintain - you pay to play. besides I bet you bought your car used because new 545i would be far out of your budget. So stop complaining and next time buy what you can REALLY afford.
hooch999,
You really are Jack A$$ aren't you. Proably stupid as $hit too. This is my third BMW and I have about 650K miles driving BMWs. The e60 is by far my most expensive to maintain, mostly because of labor to fix even simple things. e39 was a great car and simple to work on, with easy access in the engine bay. You should go back to screwing the pooch. IMHO.
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  #7  
Old 11-17-2012, 05:17 PM
Munich77 Munich77 is offline
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  #8  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:30 AM
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DAI DAI is offline
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My perspective:

- Threats of or actual legal action will change or accomplish nothing; other than giving a payday to some lawyers.
- If you want to make a statement to BMW that you are unhappy, stop buying their product.
- I would hope the Quandt family is doing everything than can to maximize their profits, would question senior leadership if they were not. But they need to balance customer exceptions in the process, which given their sales in this global economy I believe they are.
- Innovation is great, but typically untested over a longer duration of time. Therefore the most innovative companies will have an increased probability of quality issues as the product ages.
- Demand for performance, increased government regulations (i.e. EPA), and pricing pressures results in sourcing innovative parts from areas of the world with a cheaper labor force and less focus on quality.

So in short, count me out. If BMW was not meeting my expectations, which they are, I don't need a lawyer to tell them for me, I'll just be making my next purchase at their competition.
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  #9  
Old 11-18-2012, 12:28 PM
hooch999 hooch999 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racooper3 View Post
hooch999,
You really are Jack A$$ aren't you. Proably stupid as $hit too. This is my third BMW and I have about 650K miles driving BMWs. The e60 is by far my most expensive to maintain, mostly because of labor to fix even simple things. e39 was a great car and simple to work on, with easy access in the engine bay. You should go back to screwing the pooch. IMHO.

Who gives a **** how many used bms you had? 5-ers are executive cars not made for debils like you making average salary.
Go back to jerking off on your e39 moron and next time buy a honda.

Last edited by hooch999; 11-18-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-18-2012, 04:06 PM
jim165 jim165 is offline
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In all honesty, I think the root cause of the horrible reliability of all of the German makes is their steadfast refusal to adhere to the KISS rule when designing car components. Take the E60 climate control system...sure its a marvel at getting the temperature "just right", but damn, my 11 year old Honda does it just as well with probably 1/3 of the components and controls. Do I really need to go into 3 menu layers just to make the air coming out of the vents just a little cooler/hotter? They over-engineer every damn thing!
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  #11  
Old 11-19-2012, 07:29 AM
Phoenix1 Phoenix1 is offline
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Agree with KISS and also making stupid design decisions like a fuel economy gauge with no oil pressure or temp gauge? Forcing everyone to buy run flat tires with no option - when there are dozens of other performance options to choose from? Locating electronics in the lowest part of the trunk where water from clogged roof drains will collect?

However- what were the options in 2008 when I bought my car? Audi A6 or MB350 with underpowered engines and softer suspensions with less road feel? Bland boring GS?

Yeah I wished the past 4 years had been smoother- but would not take them back (too many smiles). Hope the next 4 are better (with extended warranty of course...)
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  #12  
Old 11-19-2012, 12:34 PM
racooper3 racooper3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim165 View Post
In all honesty, I think the root cause of the horrible reliability of all of the German makes is their steadfast refusal to adhere to the KISS rule when designing car components. Take the E60 climate control system...sure its a marvel at getting the temperature "just right", but damn, my 11 year old Honda does it just as well with probably 1/3 of the components and controls. Do I really need to go into 3 menu layers just to make the air coming out of the vents just a little cooler/hotter? They over-engineer every damn thing!
I guess the you could say their lack of mechanical engineering perfection is made up for by over compensating on their electrical components. The electrical doesn't mean squat if the fluid seals leak every 35 to 50 k miles, valve stem seals are crap, coolent tube in valley trough leaks, tranny shifting issues. How hard is it to build a mechanically reliable car that is fun drive.

I still love turning the key on mine every morning.
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  #13  
Old 11-19-2012, 01:50 PM
jim165 jim165 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racooper3 View Post
I guess the you could say their lack of mechanical engineering perfection is made up for by over compensating on their electrical components. The electrical doesn't mean squat if the fluid seals leak every 35 to 50 k miles, valve stem seals are crap, coolent tube in valley trough leaks, tranny shifting issues. How hard is it to build a mechanically reliable car that is fun drive.

I still love turning the key on mine every morning.
I agree, bro. I meant to include the mechanical components in my comment above as well since they are just as bad. What's even more crazy and unfair: everyone are always dogging our domestic brands for building to a price point with cheap components, when BMW, AUDI, and Mercedes are just as guilty or worse offenders! That's probably totally evident in your seals and coolant tube issues. Then again, its probably just crappy "superior" German engineering
But hey, as a manufacturer ya gotta somehow pay the light bill, the taxes, the union, the pensions, and the warranty/recall cost and still turn a profit somehow! Something's gotta be sacrificed...
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  #14  
Old 11-19-2012, 04:14 PM
dkotanto dkotanto is offline
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Do you really think that BMW wants to build a perfectly reliable car? I don't think so and I strongly believe it is all relevant to their business execution plan or a business model if you will. If they did, they would loose billions...it would kill the dealer service business (much more profitable than sales) putting many dealers out of business. Less dealers equate to less sales which mens less warranty contracts, CPO programs, etc. I think most failures are carefully planned on purpose, including the oil leaks, trunk electronics getting ruinned by clogged sunroof drains, etc. It is all about maximizing profits during the life cycle of their product and not just the initial sale.
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  #15  
Old 11-19-2012, 04:17 PM
mr29 mr29 is offline
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i get where both sides are coming from.could they build a better car sure but would it make since to do so logically no.

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  #16  
Old 11-19-2012, 06:55 PM
racooper3 racooper3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkotanto View Post
Do you really think that BMW wants to build a perfectly reliable car? I don't think so and I strongly believe it is all relevant to their business execution plan or a business model if you will. If they did, they would loose billions...it would kill the dealer service business (much more profitable than sales) putting many dealers out of business. Less dealers equate to less sales which mens less warranty contracts, CPO programs, etc. I think most failures are carefully planned on purpose, including the oil leaks, trunk electronics getting ruinned by clogged sunroof drains, etc. It is all about maximizing profits during the life cycle of their product and not just the initial sale.
I agree with you that it is their business model. I don't begrudge them for making a profit. I love to see them win, because they put more into the cars, much of what we don't ever see or touch. What I hate is getting raped at a dealer because they designed the car to take 7.5 hours of labor to replace the starter or cheap plastic tubing and biodegradable rubber sealing material.

The 4yr/50K miles $0.00 cost maint campaign has been a huge marketing and business success for them. They clearly don't care about the cars after that warranty period. Even with my previous e39 under a CPO with extended maint, the dealer service dept balked about fixing stuff. I even showed them stuff they broke but didn't replace when they broke it. By the time these cars are out of warranty, they are right back at the dealer service in the secondary ownership market.

Don't get me wrong, I love the car. I hate the headaches and a thin wallet of owning one out of warranty. Mostly the infuriatingly simple things that servicing them has become so complicated due to the superior engineering. It is almost as if they have us all hood-winked into believing that we really don't understand the auto business or the cars. If my wife's Chrysler (Mitsubishi engine) minivan can make it for 6+ years and not leak fluids all over the place, and with one third the maint cost I might add, then there is no reason why they cannot be as equally good as Chrysler in their mechanical design. I will add that changing an evaporator core in a cab forward car design is a real pain in the .

We have allowed them to have a monopoly on servicing the cars as well. The whole business model wreaks of monopolistic behavior. Should they be allowed to offer a 4yr/50K mile $0.00 maint cost warranty? Should the burden of your mistreatment of the car be subsidized by everyone else? If you had skin in the game, then you would take care of the car, if you gave a rats about keeping it. What could be greener than doubling or tripling the useful life of a BMW car. That is the kind of green environment and green wallet I am striving for.

Last edited by racooper3; 11-19-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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  #17  
Old 11-19-2012, 07:02 PM
mr29 mr29 is offline
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bmw has a hell of a business model and its a successful one at that. by buying a bmw you knowing or unknowingly accept the cost of ownership

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  #18  
Old 11-19-2012, 07:22 PM
racooper3 racooper3 is offline
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Originally Posted by mr29 View Post
bmw has a hell of a business model and its a successful one at that. by buying a bmw you knowing or unknowingly accept the cost of ownership

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I wouldn't have bought 3 of them if I didn't . I have purchased 1 new and 2 used. Used is greener on my wallet. I pay cash and don't have a monthly payment either. I guess that doesn't work for most BMW owners who can fork over $700/mo car payment. I am happy to let them be stressed out and . I refuse to play that game.
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