Snow.. Go i -or- xi?

Originally Posted by wayner44

get the xi, its like sex with a ribbed condom

Originally Posted by itsmeanuj

rwd is like sex without a condom

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Again: For most people there's no loss of performance. One may think they're losing performance but, for the vast majority of drivers, they're not. They don't have the skill to push any of theses vehicles / suspension combinations to their limit. Especially on public roads. If one prefers the feel of one suspension type of another then by all means get it. But that's a preference decision, not a performance one.

I agree completely that I would not push it to the limits. But I strongly contend that the enthusiast buys a BMW for all of the feedback given during the drive. The power, torque, handling, sounds etc. Still, I'll give ya, I'd be plenty happy with either. But I don't have to take a car to the edge of it's limits to know it handles and carves better than another.

Last weekend, I drove a Modern Line 328xi the same day I drove an M-Sport xi with DHP. I was nowhere near a loss of control in the 328. But it rolled much more than the car with DHP. Just because I don't have the skill to push the 328 all the way to the edge of the envelope doesn't mean I won't enjoy the DHP (on an xi) or the sport suspension on an i.

Well - let me reframe this issue (or at least try)

1) You are somewhat of an enthusiast, otherwise you won't be on a board discussing Automotive minutea
2) You care about how your car drives... so you are willing to go to some length to get there.
3) Everyone knows... summer tires are the best, when it comes to enjoying your BMW in the summer. All seasons are just bad at this comparison. I hope we have an agreement on this.
4) You also know, that having chose Summer tires for maximizing your BMW's potential in the summer, you absolutely must ditch them when the temperature heads south....
5) So you can get winters... i.e. performance winters like the Micheline Pilot Alpins... or something like a 3 season Continental DWS (Dry Wet Snow)... but since you care, at this point, you should get the winters. If you want to play safe in the winter, you get a more hardcore winter tire... like a Blizzak, or a X-Ice...

So logic dictates that winter tires are a must. First and foremost, you have to get winter tires.

After this, if your budget allows, you make a decision on the 4WD...

At least that is my logic.

Originally Posted by r0gue

I agree completely that I would not push it to the limits. But I strongly contend that the enthusiast buys a BMW for all of the feedback given during the drive. The power, torque, handling, sounds etc. Still, I'll give ya, I'd be plenty happy with either. But I don't have to take a car to the edge of it's limits to know it handles and carves better than another.

If you're not pushing either of them to their limits then, as I said earlier, it's a preference. You prefer how one feels to the other. Nothing wrong with that. I made my post because the RWD advocates need to stop trying to justify the RWD on technical merits and just admit it's their preference. With that said I made no attempt to talk you out of your decision. You made your decision and I respect it.

Originally Posted by r0gue

If you add a Sport package to a 3 with X-drive at $1500 -- or -- If you add the M-Sport package to a 3 with X-drive at $3200, you DO NOT get the performance tuned suspension that the package denotes. They just keep that. And charge you the same. I guess you still get the M badging... Taking the AWD compromises on the suspension. I'm not saying that compromise can't be worth it for some depending on your needs and desires, but there is a compromise. Also, my brothers MB 4-matic eats tires. Not sure about BMWs though. So that's just a perception/suspicion.

Still, it was close for me. And heck, I haven't pulled any triggers yet. Maybe I'll wishy washy around.

Summer tires, stiffer springs and shocks dont really cost BMW much more money, if any at all, so BMW really isnt keeping anything by not offering the stiffer suspension on the AWD. If you really think about it, the 3 series itself is a compromise, its a 4 door mid size sedan and performs well, but its not a full luxury sedan nor is it a sport car. In my opinion, with the same tires, RWD is a compromise, where as AWD provides a lot more traction. Performance wise, it partically the same. Tire wear wise, its a BMW, so it will go thru tires faster than other cars, AWD or RWD.

OP - Here's what I can offer. I drive a roughly 420bhp/370tq (this is engine not wheel) 4000 pound m5 that is very similar in size to the f30.

Last night driving home from the airport on my 235/45/17 continental contiextremewinter tires , I realized just how much I am giving up over the next 4 months. I am giving up so much traction, so much steering feel, so much handling finesse, high speed stability....all for the ability to traverse ~10 days of truly snowy roads with ease.

And on the days when the temperature rises to 50-60 degrees, as it occasionally does, it's even worse because the winter compound really gets soft.

....

Listen, nothing beats winter/snow tires on SNOW. And a mid-range all-season is far inferior to a mid-range summer tire in terms of traction above 40 degrees fahrenheit.

But we're talking about near-the-limit performance differences in those categories.

Let's also have a blunt discussion on well-below-the-limit everyday driving sacrifices made when riding on winter rubber for 4-5 months in mostly dry conditions. Let's talk about how winter rubber performs at 50-60% of it's life...

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Listen, nothing beats winter/snow tires on SNOW. And a mid-range all-season is far inferior to a mid-range summer tire in terms of traction above 40 degrees fahrenheit.

But we're talking about near-the-limit performance differences in those categories.

Let's also have a blunt discussion on well-below-the-limit everyday driving sacrifices made when riding on winter rubber for 4-5 months in mostly dry conditions. Let's talk about how winter rubber performs at 50-60% of it's life...

Exactly. I've made this argument before. Here in Denver the weather is expected to be no lower than 56 degrees through next Friday with many days hitting 60 degrees. Here's a look at the weather for the Denver area:

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/80237

Here's a look at the previous month:

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/80237?month=-1

We get some large variations in temperature in Denver. Thus making the argument for dedicated snow tires more difficult.

Originally Posted by jatbeni

Well - let me reframe this issue (or at least try)

1) You are somewhat of an enthusiast, otherwise you won't be on a board discussing Automotive minutea
2) You care about how your car drives... so you are willing to go to some length to get there.
3) Everyone knows... summer tires are the best, when it comes to enjoying your BMW in the summer. All seasons are just bad at this comparison. I hope we have an agreement on this.
4) You also know, that having chose Summer tires for maximizing your BMW's potential in the summer, you absolutely must ditch them when the temperature heads south....
5) So you can get winters... i.e. performance winters like the Micheline Pilot Alpins... or something like a 3 season Continental DWS (Dry Wet Snow)... but since you care, at this point, you should get the winters. If you want to play safe in the winter, you get a more hardcore winter tire... like a Blizzak, or a X-Ice...

So logic dictates that winter tires are a must. First and foremost, you have to get winter tires.

After this, if your budget allows, you make a decision on the 4WD...

At least that is my logic.

One other note on the vehicle is the tires that you choose will dictate the speed limiter. You must order Summer tires to get the high speed limiter! :

The First Part: standard tires are based on the drive train:
AWD - All Season Tires (Code ZAS)
RWD - Performance Summer Tires (Code ZPT)

The second part: Increased Top Speed Limiter (Code 804) as part of the package
A) AWD - Standard limiter, All Season Tires Standard
B) RWD - Summer Tires Standard, Increased Speed Limiter (Code 840)
C) Code ZAS is All Season Tires, you get a standard limiter (ZAS will Delete 804 from the order)
D) Code ZPT is Summer Tires you get the higher limiter (ZPT adds 804 on the order):
That means if you get an AWD and want Increased speed limiter, you must get the Summer Tires

The third part is the wheels: they come standard as square Style 397 (Code 2A5), 18x8.0 225/45 R18 on all four corners. The upgrade is the Double Spoke 19" style 401 mixed wheels 19x8.0 Front & 19x8.5 Rear (Mixed Wheels are 335i only).

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

OP - Here's what I can offer. I drive a roughly 420bhp/370tq (this is engine not wheel) 4000 pound m5 that is very similar in size to the f30.

Last night driving home from the airport on my 235/45/17 continental contiextremewinter tires , I realized just how much I am giving up over the next 4 months. I am giving up so much traction, so much steering feel, so much handling finesse, high speed stability....all for the ability to traverse ~10 days of truly snowy roads with ease.

And on the days when the temperature rises to 50-60 degrees, as it occasionally does, it's even worse because the winter compound really gets soft.

....

Listen, nothing beats winter/snow tires on SNOW. And a mid-range all-season is far inferior to a mid-range summer tire in terms of traction above 40 degrees fahrenheit.

But we're talking about near-the-limit performance differences in those categories.

Let's also have a blunt discussion on well-below-the-limit everyday driving sacrifices made when riding on winter rubber for 4-5 months in mostly dry conditions. Let's talk about how winter rubber performs at 50-60% of it's life...

Amen to that, we just had a snow strom 2 weeks ago, and last weekend, it was in the 60s.

There is a reason all-seasons exist. People act as if because they aren't as good as a summer tire nor a winter tire, in their respective elements, that all-seasons suck.

But the truth is, driving 4-5 months on REALLY GOOD all-seasons in 20-40 degree weather gives you alot of overall advantages vs doing the same 4-5 months on pure winter tires. You don't sacrifice nearly as much on dry roads, though of course you do sacrifice alot in any sort of serious wintery condition.

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

There is a reason all-seasons exist. People act as if because they aren't as good as a summer tire nor a winter tire, in their respective elements, that all-seasons suck.

But the truth is, driving 4-5 months on REALLY GOOD all-seasons in 20-40 degree weather gives you alot of overall advantages vs doing the same 4-5 months on pure winter tires. You don't sacrifice nearly as much on dry roads, though of course you do sacrifice alot in any sort of serious wintery condition.

I agree of course, because what you say is true. But I'll caveat that with two points. One is that I watch the weather like a hawk this time of year. My winter treads are still in the shed, and it looks like they will be well into December. So I think this winter it will be 3 months.

Second, and I've been in this position,.. It is a terrible feeling when you find yourself sliding (at slow speed even) toward a curb on a descent. I agree, that in general, all seasons have a place, but if you want to seriously decrease your risk if snow induced rash, you can't top winter treads.

I went into this purchase planning with the intent to go AWD. But for me - I've convinced myself away. I am VERY grateful to all who have taken time to post. I hope you'll all join me in debating the remaining decisions in another thread.

Originally Posted by r0gue

Second, and I've been in this position,.. It is a terrible feeling when you find yourself sliding (at slow speed even) toward a curb on a descent. I agree, that in general, all seasons have a place, but if you want to seriously decrease your risk if snow induced rash, you can't top winter treads.

You bet. And AWD with winter treads wins over RWD with winter treads. As I said in post #37:

"We've already been over this. AWD with snows beats both combinations. Therefore RWD isn't a consideration when safety is your top priority."

So AWD with snows is what you're buying?

Originally Posted by The X Men

Summer tires, stiffer springs and shocks dont really cost BMW much more money, if any at all, so BMW really isnt keeping anything by not offering the stiffer suspension on the AWD. If you really think about it, the 3 series itself is a compromise, its a 4 door mid size sedan and performs well, but its not a full luxury sedan nor is it a sport car. In my opinion, with the same tires, RWD is a compromise, where as AWD provides a lot more traction. Performance wise, it partically the same. Tire wear wise, its a BMW, so it will go thru tires faster than other cars, AWD or RWD.

The AWD is a 1/2" higher than a RWD. The DHP is a 1/2" lower (RWD only). So a RWD with DHP is a full inch lower than an AWD. That in of itself would have a significant impact with cornering from the lower center of gravity. The traction in strait line is better from a dead stop with AWD but the added friction from AWD may slow your acceleration down slightly after the initial launch. If I remember correctly, an E90 335i AWD was quicker than an E90 M3 in 0-30, but slower in 0-60...it is that inital launch.

AWD helps you get going, but it can't help you stop. Nothing beats a proper set of winter tires.

Originally Posted by jatbeni

3) Everyone knows... summer tires are the best, when it comes to enjoying your BMW in the summer. All seasons are just bad at this comparison. I hope we have an agreement on this.

I don't know this to be true. There are some all-season tires that provide better overall performance than some Summer tires. For example based upon Tirerack customer surveys encompassing more the 6 million miles driven on each tire, the all-season Pirelli P Zero Nero All Season out-performs the Summer Pirelli P Zero Rosso in the following categories:

1) Cornering Stability
2) Dry Traction
3) Steering Response
4) Hydroplaning Resistance
5) Wet Traction
6) Ride Comfort
7) Noise Comfort
8) Treadwear
9) Would buy again

- AND -

The Pirelli P Zero Nero All Season is rated excellent in

10) Light Snow Traction
11) Deep Snow Traction
12) Ice Traction

Pirelli P Zero Nero All Season

Pirelli P Zero Rosso

Not to make jest of my American friends, but safe winter driving is 99% knowing how to drive in winter, not the car. Unfortunately, not something everyone knows much about; especially those in the mild winter states - with only the occasional snowfall (aka New Jersey...where good rain tires are likely more critical!).
Being told or taught how to drive in winter; doesn't come close to living it for 3-4month for 20 years. But having said that, my father who was cop, taught me to take my car to an empty parking lot after the first big snow storm and re-learn how my car feels in the snow and ice Doing donuts, hard stops, rapid lane changes, etc, in controlled conditions, is nothing short of magic...and fun. I highly recommend; even for pro drivers.
Lest you think I'm a crazy Canuck, I did opt for xDrive, but for two reasons. One, we regularly drive in heavy snows (yes, taking kids to hockey games) so not getting stuck is a concern (nothing to do with stopping) and two, my wife is a nervious driver / passenger and she likes the idea of AWD (also why I caved and bought the auto).
So unless you get real snow, real often. I'd say skip the xDrive and also skip the snow tires; unless you run summer rubber and in which case, winter tires are a must. Otherwise the real world benefits ice or snow tires have been horribily exaggerated. Take the time to learn how your car feels in winter conditions, add another 1-2 car length from the car in front, and watch out for the guy behind you.

No one has mentioned chains as a alternative. A set of chains is a lot cheaper than a second set of wheels/tires. I have used them in the past on RWD cars with not-particularly-good all-season tires with sucess in some pretty bad storms.

Canada1867,

What's you opinion on having a set of snow chains as a back-up plan in rainy New Jersey?

Originally Posted by dunderhi

I don't know this to be true. There are some all-season tires that provide better overall performance than some Summer tires. For example based upon Tirerack customer surveys encompassing more the 6 million miles driven on each tire, the all-seasonPirelli P Zero Nero All Season out-performs the SummerPirelli P Zero Rosso in the following categories...

1) those are customer SURVEYS, not road tests.
2) you can't compare surveys between tires in different CATEGORIES, since the surveys are compiled within a category.
3) the surveys are compiled across many TYPES OF CAR
4) if you want to compare tire performance, you have to look at Tirerack's TESTs

In short, you're trying to compare apples to oranges to bananas with those surveys.

Originally Posted by dunderhi

No one has mentioned chains as a alternative. A set of chains is a lot cheaper than a second set of wheels/tires. I have used them in the past on RWD cars with not-particularly-good all-season tires with sucess in some pretty bad storms.

There isn't room to put chains or cable chains on sport-pack tires/wheels, unless you want to beat up your fenders. Usually there isn't room on the inside to clear the struts anyway. Since you'd have to down-size the tire/wheel combo to put chains on, you might as well go to snow tires. Note that the AWD 'xi cars, since they have a taller stance, can actually take chains.

Originally Posted by dunderhi

No one has mentioned chains as a alternative. A set of chains is a lot cheaper than a second set of wheels/tires. I have used them in the past on RWD cars with not-particularly-good all-season tires with sucess in some pretty bad storms.

Canada1867,

What's you opinion on having a set of snow chains as a back-up plan in rainy New Jersey?

Although I've seen snow bury my front door; I've never needed chains. Snowplows always do their job before I drive. But I do know some first responders that sometimes have to venture out in the middle of the night and have used them on occasion. I can't image living in NJ that you'd ever really need them though. As a matter of fact, if you really really think you need winter tires, go for the ice tires; which are very different than snow tire. In my opinion, the OEM Continental All-Season should cover 99.9% of your needs. Assuming you drive with ordinary caution and wait for the snow plows after 2 feet of snow falls.

Originally Posted by floydarogers

There isn't room to put chains or cable chains on sport-pack tires/wheels, unless you want to beat up your fenders. Usually there isn't room on the inside to clear the struts anyway. Since you'd have to down-size the tire/wheel combo to put chains on, you might as well go to snow tires. Note that the AWD 'xi cars, since they have a taller stance, can actually take chains.

I do not think there is a meaningful any difference in ride height, other than if you have MSport package, and that's only a ~1 inch drop. Check with dealer or Tire Rack, there are some pretty slick chain systems. As a matter of fact, my friend who has a cotttage in a mountainish area bought chains for his 2008 or 9, 3 series (but only used them once, and never real bothered afterwards) and no problem.

Originally Posted by Canada1867

I'd say skip the xDrive and also skip the snow tires; unless you run summer rubber and in which case, winter tires are a must. Otherwise the real world benefits ice or snow tires have been horribily exaggerated.

While I totally agree with you that the lions share of control and safety on snow is skill, we'll just have to agree to disagree on skipping the snow tires. I live in a very hilly terrain. But again, terrain is something we hadn't talked greatly about here - aside from the proverbial trip to the mountains.

It doesn't have to be a mountain to be treacherous on 4 inches of snow. Or two inches for that matter. An all season plugged with snow is pretty similar to a ski.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

You bet. And AWD with winter treads wins over RWD with winter treads. As I said in post #37:

"We've already been over this. AWD with snows beats both combinations. Therefore RWD isn't a consideration when safety is your top priority."

So AWD with snows is what you're buying?

No. I respectfully do not agree. How about RWD isn't a consideration when safety is your only priority instead?

I believe my position is that based on my experience, my snow driving skill, my local snowfall history, my required commute length, my demands for "feel" of the vehicle in multiple situations year round -- that I will opt for two sets of wheels and RWD. I believe that RWD with winters and good driving skill can provide safety.

Originally Posted by r0gue

Thanks much for the awesome input. I've made my decision.

We do get some heavy snows here, and it does pile up a bit over time. But, I've driven RWD BMWs and for the last 5 years I've used Blizzaks with great success. The only big drawback was the expense of the strip and mount as I did not have an extra set of wheels. This time, I will get the extra set of wheels with winter tires.

I decided on RWD primarily because I am happy with the performance for 10 months a year and I park in a parking garage on the roof, which requires a LOT of tight turns up and down. I think the AWD would wear tires faster.

But the MAJOR reason was that they delete the sport suspension off the AWD cars. So I would be compelled to add the dynamic handling kit. So secondarily to the desires for how the car behaves, I'm figuring $3k for the xi difference with DHP. I can get mounted Blizzaks for half that.

With the difference, I pay for the upgrade from Sport to M-Sport!!!!

So 335i M-Sport, next to choose my options. As we are on a winter theme, I am DEFINITELY getting the cold wx package with the headed steering wheel. That compels leather.. Beyond that -- well, that can be another thread.

It's a good choice, I've debated for both lines in other threads. That said, one of the most attractive options on the M-line is the M steering wheel. If you want a heated steering wheel, the M wheel isn't it. I have a sport line with the heated steering wheel and its awesome. I would still trade it for the M wheel in a hot minute.

If you do get the M-line, I implore you to keep the M wheel over the heated steering wheel.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

First off, congrats.

Secondly, no matter AWD or RWD, you need dedicated snow tires, period. In the United States, AWD is really nothing more than an excuse for drivers to be less safe because they're too lazy to swap their tires out 2x a year. I know this firsthand, learned the hard way.

So, you're real question is: "Do I get dedicated snow tires on XDrive or do I get dedicated snow tires on RWD?"

And the answer is: "You live in a location where you're going to have snow maybe 10 out of 365 days, so you get RWD."

BJ

Absolutely right. There is no substitute for winter tires no matter what you have. Blizzaks are passable. Get something real like Nokian Hakkapellitta and don't look back. The i would be a fine choice. Xi is about getting going. Its the tires that will get you stopped in a hurry.

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