E92 3 Series Coupe VS F32 4 Series Coupe - Which styling do you prefer?

Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat

My curse is that I was taught correctly at the tender age of 5 that it is "Por-shuh".

Unfortunately for me, this summer our 26 year old niece tried to 'educate' me on how "hip" people pronounce Porsche. More unfortunate, is her stepmom who probably really doesn't have a clue what the difference is between a Ferarri and Ford Focus chastised me for being "pompous" for making the effort toward correct pronounciation.



(Thank you for letting me vent that among folks who understand.)

In my experience, "hip" people, that is actual Porsche owners and enthusiasts, especially those that have other vehicles besides their Porsches and especially those have have other track cars besides their track Porsches, call their cars "P-cars", as in, "Which car am I going to take to the track this weekend? Oh, I'll probably take the P-car".

Those don't usually include 26-year olds.

Originally Posted by SD Z4MR

In my experience, "hip" people, that is actual Porsche owners and enthusiasts, especially those that have other vehicles besides their Porsches and especially those have have other track cars besides their track Porsches, call their cars "P-cars", as in, "Which car am I going to take to the track this weekend? Oh, I'll probably take the P-car".

Those don't usually include 26-year olds.

I'm new to it all, but I just call my Porsche a Porsche. Also, you keep expressing the ideal that one must track their performance cars in order to qualify as worthy car owners or car enthusiasts. I don't track my cars for liability reasons, but let me assure you that I enthusiastically enjoy owning and driving my cars.

Originally Posted by WJGreer

I'm not sure what you will be driving, in the entry premium segment going forward, that doesn't have either or both.

I'm reserving judgment until I see one in person. The F30, to me, looks way better that way than in any picture. The air vent surround does look a little troublesome.

I foresee my next purchase being a Corvette - no turbo, no four.

Originally Posted by beden1

I'm new to it all, but I just call my Porsche a Porsche. Also, you keep expressing the ideal that one must track their performance cars in order to qualify as worthy car owners or car enthusiasts. I don't track my cars for liability reasons, but let me assure you that I enthusiastically enjoy owning and driving my cars.

I'm not expressing that as an ideal and it's not my definition of an enthusiast. I just know lots of people who track their daily driver cars and also those who have dedicated track cars. In my experience it's these people who are the most enthusiastic about their cars, hence an "enthusiast". I'm sure that there are Prius owners who are just as enthusiastic about their cars, also "enthusiasts", but you're probably never going to see one on a track. They seem more inclined to view the "performance" of their cars by how good their mileage is. The Porsche owners in the local Porsche club, with whom we share joint Tech Sessions, are probably the most enthusiastic about the performance aspects of their cars than any other owner group that I know. Some of these people own both BMWs and Porsches. These are the people I mentioned who refer to their Porsches as P-cars.

One doesn't have to own a "performance car" to be an enthusiast, nor does one become an enthusiast by merely owning a performance car. One also doesn't have to track their "performance car" to enjoy it, although if you have a performance car and you don't track it you're missing out on an awful lot of fun. Regardless how enthusiastically you enjoy owning and driving your car, you will never fully realize the full extent of the engineering and performance of your car because you just can't legally drive that way on the street. You say that you don't track your cars for "liability reasons" but that really isn't an excuse because if you're that paranoid about driving at a track event you can buy per-event track insurance.

Let me stress, these are all my opinions and my experiences with people I know or have known. YMMV.

Our discussions are way off topic for this thread and I really don't think this is the appropriate thread for further discussion of this topic.

Originally Posted by SD Z4MR

I'm not expressing that as an ideal and it's not my definition of an enthusiast. I just know lots of people who track their daily driver cars and also those who have dedicated track cars. In my experience it's these people who are the most enthusiastic about their cars, hence an "enthusiast". I'm sure that there are Prius owners who are just as enthusiastic about their cars, also "enthusiasts", but you're probably never going to see one on a track. They seem more inclined to view the "performance" of their cars by how good their mileage is. The Porsche owners in the local Porsche club, with whom we share joint Tech Sessions, are probably the most enthusiastic about the performance aspects of their cars than any other owner group that I know. Some of these people own both BMWs and Porsches. These are the people I mentioned who refer to their Porsches as P-cars.

One doesn't have to own a "performance car" to be an enthusiast, nor does one become an enthusiast by merely owning a performance car. One also doesn't have to track their "performance car" to enjoy it, although if you have a performance car and you don't track it you're missing out on an awful lot of fun. Regardless how enthusiastically you enjoy owning and driving your car, you will never fully realize the full extent of the engineering and performance of your car because you just can't legally drive that way on the street. You say that you don't track your cars for "liability reasons" but that really isn't an excuse because if you're that paranoid about driving at a track event you can buy per-event track insurance.

Let me stress, these are all my opinions and my experiences with people I know or have known. YMMV.

Our discussions are way off topic for this thread and I really don't think this is the appropriate thread for further discussion of this topic.

I own a 911 GTS and a couple of BMWs, and fortunate to have hundreds of miles of lightly traveled roads available within minutes of my house, that wind through hilly farmlands and mountainous terrains, and where driving is exciting and pure pleasure.

I have looked into track day insurance products and they fall short of protecting me should a tragic accident occur. My umbrella coverage will not cover/protect me, and because my auto policy won't cover me, I lose the benefits of stacking the coverages from 7 vehicles that we own. In the opinion of the law firm that represents us, we would be vulnerable to law suits seeking damages well beyond the track day coverages, at least.

I have read numerous articles covering track accidents resulting in severe injuries and death, as well as damage to other cars, the track and facility. I seem to remember one involving a Porsche GT several years ago. An accident like that could financially wipe someone out. It's not worth potentially losing what has taken a lifetime to build.

At this stage in my life, I figure it's better just to enjoy my driving excursions with the top down during a beautiful day and experiencing some of the best performance ever produced, as conditions allow.

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

Off topic (and more fun ):
Oh, that must have been rich. It would almost have been worth the airfare to have been invited to listen in at that table!

I usually manage to bite my tongue and simply use the correct pronunciation at every opportunity. But on the rare occasions when someone has challenged the distinction, even after being told they are mangling a person's name, I start mispronouncing their name until it sinks in. That's guaranteed fun.

(I suspect your in-laws would have thrown me out before dessert.)

The irony of it was we were on a train enroute from Koblenz to Frankfurt when the conversation happened. It's amazing how vehement people can be when they are totally in error.

Originally Posted by SD Z4MR

In my experience, "hip" people, that is actual Porsche owners and enthusiasts, especially those that have other vehicles besides their Porsches and especially those have have other track cars besides their track Porsches, call their cars "P-cars", as in, "Which car am I going to take to the track this weekend? Oh, I'll probably take the P-car".

Those don't usually include 26-year olds.

Yes, it has been my experience that every person to a letter that I've ever known who has owned or currently owns a Porsche manages to properly pronounce the formal name.

Of course, a 26 year old aspiring to owning a Cayenne isn't exactly what I would classify as a purist, and certainly doesn't fit a "track centric" definintion of enthusiast.

Originally Posted by beden1

I'm new to it all, but I just call my Porsche a Porsche. Also, you keep expressing the ideal that one must track their performance cars in order to qualify as worthy car owners or car enthusiasts. I don't track my cars for liability reasons, but let me assure you that I enthusiastically enjoy owning and driving my cars.

I'm with you Beden. You do not have to track a car to be an enthusiast. I consider myself to be just as much an enthusiast as anyone else here because I have immersed myself in learning everything I can about the brand and about the car itself, and I have a long standing love/respect of the marque. I also love driving it especially when I can get it out on lightly traveled roads. Competition is not a prerequisite for being an enthusiast. It is absolutely no different than a claiming that photographer who chooses to not commercially sell their work or enter it in competitions is not a photographer.

if you play forza with an m3 e92 does that count?

Originally Posted by tim330i

I hate to disappoint but the F32 will have a front end similar to the F30. The front grills will be wider and flatter with the headlight shaped tighten. Make no mistake the headlights will connect to the grills in a similar fashion to how the styling was done on the F30. It really grows on you, I think it looks fantastic on the F30 3 series now!

Tim

Nope... I'll admit that the m-sport F30 looks good, from the side, but that's it. If the F32 maintains the hideousness of the F30, I'll be looking for a used E92 as my next car.

Originally Posted by chris328

if you play forza with an m3 e92 does that count?

I have two M3 in PS3 GT5

Originally Posted by beden1

I have read numerous articles covering track accidents resulting in severe injuries and death, as well as damage to other cars, the track and facility. I seem to remember one involving a Porsche GT several years ago. An accident like that could financially wipe someone out. It's not worth potentially losing what has taken a lifetime to build.

No offense, but I didn't understand a word of what you just said. Jerry Seinfeld probably spends more time on a track than he does working and he is worth a pretty penny. If he's not worried, I'm sure you shouldn't be either.

Besides, why give it to them? I mean, when you seem to be afraid to do something perfectly legal because of how somebody might INTERPRET it, it makes very little difference whether that somebody is called "secret police ruled by communist party" or "lawyers". I thought this was, quote, "Home of the free and the land of the brave."

Originally Posted by Mark K

No offense, but I didn't understand a word of what you just said. Jerry Seinfeld probably spends more time on a track than he does working and he is worth a pretty penny. If he's not worried, I'm sure you shouldn't be either.

Besides, why give it to them? I mean, when you seem to be afraid to do something perfectly legal because of how somebody might INTERPRET it, it makes very little difference whether that somebody is called "secret police ruled by communist party" or "lawyers". I thought this was, quote, "Home of the free and the land of the brave."

Free Country? Ideally yes, but unfortunately no in the real world. I don't know Jerry Seinfeld, but I would like to know what he's set up to mitigate personal liability.

There are many different kinds of car enthusiasts and I do not for a minute claim that you have to track you car to be an enthusiast. That being said driving enthusiastically on the road and pushing a car to the limits on a track are very different experiences. I think the members here who got a hot lap with Simon Kirkby around Lime Rock at the Fall Foliage Run can attest to that.

CA

Originally Posted by beden1

Free Country? Ideally yes, but unfortunately no in the real world. I don't know Jerry Seinfeld, but I would like to know what he's set up to mitigate personal liability.

Autox has little liability issue, if you do autox a few times, no one can say you are not an enthusiast

Just to clarify I never said that someone who doesn't track their car isn't an enthusiast. It's just that in my experience, the people who track their cars are among the most enthusiastic owners that I've met. They have an understanding and relationship with their cars that can't be duplicated by just driving it on the street. If you truly enjoy driving your car, tracking your car adds an entirely other dimension to that enjoyment. Autocross doesn't count as tracking your car, but it will give you an understanding of the dynamics of your car that you just can't experience on the street. It seems there are some people who are awfully defensive about their decision not to autocross or track their car, claiming that driving their car on the street makes them just as much of an enthusiast. I disagree, because I believe that there are different levels of enthusiast. And I don't agree with the other analogy that was made about photography, it's just not really the same thing.

Also to clarify, tracking your car usually doesn't mean competition and I have never driven a car on the track in competition. Most non-professional enthusiasts who track their car attend a BMW CCA High Performance Driving Event which is not a competition. It is not timed and there is no contest. It is the opportunity to get your car on a track, usually with an instructor, and learn how to drive your car to the max. You learn about the proper line, turn-in, apex, and track-out points, and how to pass (always only by point by) in your own car. You learn about early apex, late apex, trail braking, left foot braking, heel-toe downshifting, and much more. Porsche Club of America (PCA) offer similar schools. In addition there are many other organizations that offer track sessions or "hot lapping". None of this involves timing or competition. There are also commercial driving schools; Skip Barber and Bob Bondurant racing schools are probably the most well known, but these are done with dedicated track cars. I took the Skip Barber 3-Day Racing School at Laguna Seca which is done in dedicated open-wheel race cars. Again, not a competition.

Those who want competition can choose from BMW or PCA club racing, or SCCA racing. This will be in your dedicated track car which has to meet stringent safety standards such as roll cages, fire extinguishers, fuel cells, nomex suites, balaclavas, and gloves, among many other requirements. This isn't just tracking your car, this is racing.

To make some proper analogies, and ones that are strictly car-related, most of us would agree that a Prius owner probably doesn't experience quite the same driving experience that we do in our BMWs, and most would agree that its a lesser experience. Someone who drives a 328i convertible, while still a BMW, is getting a different driving experience than someone who drives an M3. Someone who drives their car only on the street isn't getting nearly the same driving experience as someone who autocrosses their car. Tracking your car is another step beyond that. I'm just expanding on what captainaudio said.

But different strokes for different folks. Be content to drive your car on the street or push your limits a little and try an autocross. Go farther and take your car to the track. I would argue that doing either will make you even more enthusiastic than you are now. Everyone can make their own decisions how they define their enthusiasm for their car. IMHO, the true measure of an car enthusiast is how much they enjoy actually driving their car and hopefully, some of that would include driving it at the limit.

Originally Posted by beden1

.

I have read numerous articles covering track accidents resulting in severe injuries and death, as well as damage to other cars, the track and facility. I seem to remember one involving a Porsche GT several years ago. An accident like that could financially wipe someone out. It's not worth potentially losing what has taken a lifetime to build.

Have we become this risk adverse in the 21st century? Glad I lived most of my life in the bad old days. I will be 71 years old next month & can't conceive living my life in fear of liability lawyers.

I think photography can be a good analogy. If you go beyond taking photos just because you have to, as a necessary way to fill your albums for the memories, if you go beyond that and demonstrate above average skills, you are likely an enthusiast.

Originally Posted by bear-avhistory

Have we become this risk adverse in the 21st century? Glad I lived most of my life in the bad old days. I will be 71 years old next month & can't conceive living my life in fear of liability lawyers.

Good for you, many of us can only hope.

Everyone has different risk/benefit threshold. To be relevant to the subject, companies have their risk and benefit threshold when they bring new models.

Judging by the 4 series spy photos, BMW again takes a safer approach, while trying to attract Audi and Lexus buyers. The new 4 roofline is more inline with the coupe design language of the competitions, so much that the Hofmeister kink seems a little compromised.

Originally Posted by SD Z4MR

[B]I disagree, because I believe that there are different levels of enthusiast.

Tom,
You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on a matter of semantics on this one. You see levels of enthusiasts. I see categories. The difference is levels (to me) are heirarchical, while categories are lateral.

Originally Posted by SD Z4MR

And I don't agree with the other analogy that was made about photography, it's just not really the same thing.

Ah, but it is, just on a different level. If you hang out any where there is turf defending among photographers there is a great war that if you don't enter your photos in competetions or you don't sell your product then you are not a "Photographer". If Ansel Adams had never published one of his photographs, would that make him any less a great photographer or enthusiast of the art? No.

Enthusiast as defined by Webster is "one who tends to give himself completely to whatever engages his interest."

By that definition the person who gives themselves completely to maintaining their BMW (e.g. ILMC) is just as much as enthusiast as Mrated//e90 (the track fiend) as is BJ, the flag bearer for Status as demonstrated by New, as is Teh Jev, the icon of the OT subforum; may he rest in peace.

To the original intent of this thread, people were asked if they were enthusiastic about the new model change. Yes, no, or indifferent - we are still equal enthusiasts no matter what drives our inspiration/interest.

Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat

Tom,
You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on a matter of semantics on this one. You see levels of enthusiasts. I see categories. The difference is levels (to me) are heirarchical, while categories are lateral.




Ah, but it is, just on a different level. If you hang out any where there is turf defending among photographers there is a great war that if you don't enter your photos in competetions or you don't sell your product then you are not a "Photographer". If Ansel Adams had never published one of his photographs, would that make him any less a great photographer or enthusiast of the art? No.

Enthusiast as defined by Webster is "one who tends to give himself completely to whatever engages his interest."

By that definition the person who gives themselves completely to maintaining their BMW (e.g. ILMC) is just as much as enthusiast as Mrated//e90 (the track fiend) as is BJ, the flag bearer for Status as demonstrated by New, as is Teh Jev, the icon of the OT subforum; may he rest in peace.

To the original intent of this thread, people were asked if they were enthusiastic about the new model change. Yes, no, or indifferent - we are still equal enthusiasts no matter what drives our inspiration/interest.

Race car drivers = Photographers.
Auto journalists = Journalists who take photos.
Auto enthusiasts = Photography enthusiasts.
Motorist/drivers = Compact digital camera carriers.
BJ = Professional grade camera carriers who don't necessarily take photos.

too soon to tell, but so far i'm lovin it.

Originally Posted by bear-avhistory

Have we become this risk adverse in the 21st century? Glad I lived most of my life in the bad old days. I will be 71 years old next month & can't conceive living my life in fear of liability lawyers.

If this is referring to a Carrera GT track accident a few years ago, I think the car had a passenger and both driver and passenger died. I also believe the widows ended up suing everyone in sight including the track and Porsche NA. Porsche NA settled (for selling a car that was too fast?). Lawyers will be lawyers, and Porsche has deeper pockets than most owners.

When I've gone to track events, I've always needed to sign a liability waver absolving anyone and everyone of absolutely everything before even driving onto the property.

A few years ago I brought my own car in for service and gawked at a new GT3 that had kissed the Armco barrier on three corners that weekend. Obviously, collision insurance does not cover this. Liability aside, that would be my own concern, and even though I could cover the loss myself, I'd still be extremely annoyed. If I ever had the time and skills to track a car, I'd probably buy or build a dedicated track rat and expect to wreck it.

Is that Garmin custom cup holder mount available commercially?
Thanks, Chas

If you like that pregnant hood look the 4 could be the auto for you!! It should look much like the F30 minus 2 doors i'll take the E92 any day.Maybe a hood delete?

the best looking one is still this

I'll admit the vent on the side isn't my cup of tea, but overall it looks the part of a sports coupe more than the e92 did.