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5 Series DIY
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  #26  
Old 11-07-2011, 12:36 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Wow. Lot's of good information in your response!

Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
once you remove the injectors, you would want to replace BOTH O-rings.
OK. Good to know. Just like the DISA then, you don't remove them unless you have the o-rings in your hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
the vacuum leak due to worn out O-rings anyone can experience this.

I'm sorry for being confused. Can we replace 'just' that thinner vacuum-leak-related o-ring without removing the fuel injector itself?

Or, do we have to remove the fuel injector - which would then necessitate replacing both the thin (air leak) and fat (liquid leak) o-rings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
on top of the injectors is a filter that gets clogged up.

Should we add this filter to
the VERY best of E39 Links list of items to periodically clean?
- Maintenance checklist of filters and components to be periodically checked & cleaned in the BMW E39 (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
pull out the injectors and go to a reputable place that cleans (mechanically) the injectors. They "should" ultrasound and chemically clean them, re-calibrate the nozzle pattern and replace the O-rings & filter.

I researched the witchhunter $120 service about a year ago over in post #42 here:
-
Techron Concentrate Plus is fixing my fuel gauge

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Hi Frank,
Excellent information. After reading the site, I agree - there is no "adjusting" whatsoever.

A lot of cleaning goes on (with the replacing of three components, namely filters, o-rings, & pintle caps).

Here's specifically what that shop does (in this order):
- The injectors are first visually inspected
- Then checked for coil winding shorts or opens
- A number is engraved on each injector
- The exterior is cleaned using filtered mineral spirits
- Metal body top feed injectors have the exterior bead blasted
- The coil winding resistance is measured
- A scope is used to observe the coil current waveform
- They are then leak tested at 10 psi, 40 psi, and 100 psi
- The spray patterns are checked
- Flows are measured by static (wide open) tests
- Flows are measured by dynamic (pulsed) tests
- They are disassembled by removing the pintle cap, o-rings, filters, and spacers
- These newly exposed areas are cleaned in the parts washer
- The bottom and the exterior of the injectors are cleaned ultrasonically
- In the ultrasonic tank they are cleaned with leads connected to pulse them on and off during this operation
- They will go through one or more cleaning cycles depending on the results of the first flow test
- The injectors are then moved to a third ultrasonic cleaning tank
- In this third tank the cleaning fluid is kept extremely clean and the pulsed cleaning continues
- A high pressure back-flush is now performed to remove any remaining particles
- A second round of both static and dynamic flow testing is done
- If any do not flow as expected, they will be cleaned again in the tank and retested
- Any remaining replaceable parts, such as spacers and filters are now installed
- The cleaned injectors are placed in numbered plastic bags
- An Excel spreadsheet is prepared showing both the before and after flow data (see sample test report below)
- Everything is carefully packed and shipped back to the owner

DETAILS:
- The test temperatures are controlled
- Most tests are performed at 43.5 psi (3 bar), the standard for injectors
- TBI and CIS are tested at a different pressure
- Room temperature coil resistance readings should be within 10% of each other
- The injectors are checked for leaks at 10, 40, and 100 psi (3x before cleaning and 3x after cleaning)
- A visual check of how the injector atomizes the fluid while it's operated
- The injector is held open for and the static flow volume is measured
- The injector is pulsed on and off to simulate normal operation (this tests the internal spring condition as well as how clean they are)
- The absolute value is not important, the thing to look for here, is how close they are to one another <--- this appears to be the "matching"

After having read that excellent description of the fuel-injector cleaning & test procedure, I don't see any purposeful "matching" going on but I do see that the results, if within 5%, especially on the pulsed-flow tests, would indicate back to the customer how well (or poorly) matched the original fuel injectors are.

Merry Christmas!
Bluebee





My problem with the Witchunter approach is mostly the presumed downtime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cn90 View Post
Truely speaking, the money spent on Techron can be used to have the injectors professionally cleaned.
Removing the injectors in an E39 is relatively easy, send them for cleaning and re-install them.
The downside is the car is down for a week.

Merry Christmas folks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
Also a detailed report should accompany the repair.
See above report from and below marketing blurb from the aforementioned Techron thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Apparently it costs $19/injector to be cleaned & "matched".
Reading further about injectors in that excellent site, their FAQ questions with answers on "flow matching" and "rebuilding" is interesting:
What is Flow Matching?

It's one of those terms that get used probably too often. Flow matching is when we take a large number of injectors that are tested and then grouped with others that have the same flow characteristics. They can be characterized for high RPM flow only or best all-around flow. WitchHunter Performance can test injectors to better than 1% and be repeatable.

Does WitchHunter Performance "rebuild" fuel injectors?

Nobody actually rebuilds gasoline injectors, since they are a sealed unit and can't be totally disassembled. What we do is inspect, test, ultrasonically clean and replace any serviceable parts, (such as filters, o-rings, & pintle caps). Some companies call this rebuilding, or even remanufacturing and charge over 5 times our price. We replace all the parts that can be replaced. The truth is, you are getting the same thing. Beware of places that claim to "Rebuild" gasoline injectors.



Last edited by bluebee; 11-07-2011 at 12:41 PM.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2011, 01:37 PM
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doru doru is offline
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Why would you do that (replace only 1 O-ring)? Once the injector is removed, you can access both O-rings. I would not do a 1/2 job. Also, the "rebuilding" of an injector consists of:
-replacing both O-rings
-replacing the filter (it's on the top, you could remove it, but you can also destroy the injector if you don't know how - some people advise removing it with a wood screw, and I am against: chance to destroy the injector are too big)
-cleaning and re-calibrating the injector.

The report we got from our injector cleaning facility is similar to one you posted, only in more detail.
The downtime for any customer at that specific facility is 1 day max. which is reasonable (here in Calgary). One can book an appointment, bring them in in the morning and pick them up in the afternoon.

Also, FYI, if you bring the car to the dealership for Service II, cleaning of injectors & engine is included in this. It's a chemical cleaning performed with something similar to Techron I think (Lubro-Moly chemicals). How do I know? I had it performed on my car in 2008. They also tell you NOT to fill up until you almost empty the tank.
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  #28  
Old 11-09-2011, 06:51 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
Why would you do that (replace only 1 O-ring)?
I don't know. I'm asking you!

My 'thought' was that I was only trying to identify & resolve 'vacuum leaks' (I don't have a fuel leak); so if I only wanted to solve a vacuum problem, I'd only replace the vacuum o-ring. At least that's the 'why' for asking the question.

If it makes no sense to just replace one o-ring, then I guess, the procedure is this:

a) Do the water-and-the-straw trick to identify a vacuum leak at the thin FI o-ring.
b) If you 'do' have a vacuum leak, then replace BOTH o-rings

Does that sound reasonable as your recommended procedure?
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  #29  
Old 11-09-2011, 08:23 AM
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doru doru is offline
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I would service the injectors @ 100k miles by replacing both O-rings, and have them cleaned at a licensed facility (mechanical cleaning, re-calibrating & new filters). The ensuing report will also tell you IF there is any injector beyond repair.
If you have no driveability issue, there is no sense opening everything up only for curiosity sake, or doing a half job. You can mess up more things then doing any good.

0.02
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  #30  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:22 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
If you have no driveability issue, there is no sense opening everything up
Depends on what you mean by a 'driveability" issue.

I have early morning misfire codes (lots and lots of 'em) all due to lean conditions.
- Does the order of the misfire OBDII DTCs diagnostic trouble codes actually matter (1)

The driveability is fine when warm; lousy when cold.

BTW, with these codes:
P1083 BMW 202, Fuel Control Limit Mixture Too Lean (Bank 1 Sensor 1)
P1085 BMW 203, Fuel Control Limit Mixture Too Lean (Bank 2 Sensor 1)

Given:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
Bank 2 is cylinder 4, 5, and 6. Those are the rearmost 3 cylinders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edjack View Post
Bank 2 sensor 1 is the pre-cat O2 sensor for the rear 3 cylinders.
I'm going to look up why one oxygen sensor reports on both the front bank1 and the rear bank2 sets of cylinders (I had initially thought there were two oxygen sensors, pre cat).

Last edited by bluebee; 11-09-2011 at 09:47 AM.
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  #31  
Old 01-07-2012, 10:12 AM
Wayne's World Wayne's World is offline
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Doru, thanks for putting this together. I'm currently under going the surgery but diy'ing the cleaning by letting it soak in carb cleaner (berrymans b12) over night. I will pulse it but only to let some solution through it in reverse. I bought the injector rebuild kit from Mr Injector on eBay for $25. THis is probably my last attempt at solving my probs before I give up on my own googling and the Indy and take it into BMW.

I've got a strange one which is BMW 235 & 236. Both banks too rich. The P1092 & p1093 paint a different picture however as that translates to Bank 2 is rich AND lean. Go figure!

Bluebee - does John treat you to dinner and Babysit for you? Because you really are THE most valuable member of this forum. I have yet to see anyone as dedicated and as good at what you're doing on any other forum. Keep up the good work, we all really appreciate it!
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  #32  
Old 01-07-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne's World View Post
Bluebee - does John treat you to dinner and Babysit for you?
I don't know who John is (presumably a forum owner?) but we're all working together toward a common goal.

Each person contributes depending on their strengths - and the other team members make up for their weaknesses.

My strength is NOT in knowledge (I know less about everything than anyone until/unless I have the problem myself).

My strength is in documentation. Everyone else contributes in knowledge.

It works because we work together as a team!
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  #33  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I don't know who John is (presumably a forum owner?)
Yes, Jon Shafer is the Bimmerfest founder. Really good guy!
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  #34  
Old 01-11-2012, 08:34 AM
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Confirmed - the injectors were faulty

It's confirmed that my old injectors were faulty.
This morning it was very cold. The original injectors would start leaking at this temperature, and I would have that raw fuel smell in the cabin about 3-4 minutes after driving. No more of that and I am soooo happy!!!! Expensive but very easy repair.
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  #35  
Old 01-11-2012, 01:40 PM
poolman poolman is offline
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Great to hear this has worked out well for you--did the job fix the fuel mileage problem you were also working towards?--I know I have asked this before, but back then it was too early to tell.
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  #36  
Old 01-11-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poolman View Post
Great to hear this has worked out well for you--did the job fix the fuel mileage problem you were also working towards?--I know I have asked this before, but back then it was too early to tell.
The weirdest hing happened. Over a quite longer time span, the fuel economy ever so slowly improved. From about 13.5 - 14 l/100km (17 - 17.4 mpg) to right now 11.1 - 11.8 l/100km (19.9 - 21.2 mpg). All this is exclusive city driving, no Hi-way. Haven't touched any rubber hoses, boots, CCV etc. (no codes either).
Runs normal, is all I can say. Hope it stays that way and I don't jinx it.
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  #37  
Old 01-24-2012, 09:06 AM
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From the "other" forum, a very good piece of information:

"Thanks for all the posts, and sorry for my delayed response...Snow storm and no power for the last 5 days. I let the car sit over night with everything together and vuala...no leaking...but i think it was the lack of lube lol...I had mine rebuilt because i was troubleshooting a misfire, that turned out to be a blown valve. I had a report taken, all of injectors have a 22% flow obstruction, and one was 35% @ wide open throttle...The guy said, anything over 10% could cause misfire and poor performance and rough idle.

and now after the rebuild, no obstruction of flow, and the car runs better than when i bought it. 140k miles ago."

Here is the post
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  #38  
Old 03-30-2012, 10:15 PM
EconoBox EconoBox is offline
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Replacing 6 injectors is going to cost someone about $600.
Not a cheap DIY, so this is one I would not do just for the sake of doing (without codes and problems)

Last edited by EconoBox; 03-31-2012 at 06:36 AM.
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  #39  
Old 03-30-2012, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EconoBox View Post
Replacing 6 injectors is going to cost someone about $600.
Not a cheap DIT, nor one I would do just for the sake of doing (without codes and problems)
Agreed, but, well, I had issues.
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  #40  
Old 04-13-2012, 04:09 PM
EconoBox EconoBox is offline
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How common is an injector failure?
If you had to put a mileage on it, when would you replace them as prev.maint?
It's a $600 DIY, so what's the final word on simply cleaning your injectors? Better bang for the buck?
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  #41  
Old 04-14-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EconoBox View Post
How common is an injector failure?
If you had to put a mileage on it, when would you replace them as prev.maint?
It's a $600 DIY, so what's the final word on simply cleaning your injectors? Better bang for the buck?
It looks like the 3 liter M54 OEM injectors have issues, and in cold weather only, you will see this happening. They leak somwhere at the mid-body. It's a manufacturing defect. The new Siemens ones are OK (or so I heard). If you don't have problems, don't do it. If you smell raw fuel in the cabin a few minutes after a cold startup in cold weather (the temp has to be below -20C - this is below -4F), and if you open the hood you see a big cloud of fuel vapors coming out from the fuel rail, that's it. You need new injectors, no if's and why's. The car can catch-on fire anytime.
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  #42  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:22 AM
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morrisroad morrisroad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EconoBox View Post
How common is an injector failure?
If you had to put a mileage on it, when would you replace them as prev.maint?
It's a $600 DIY, so what's the final word on simply cleaning your injectors? Better bang for the buck?
Take a look at this thread and you can see that 198K they looked clean on my car.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...274&highlight=

I recommend going with brand new Siemens injectors. Yes, you will pay more, and save your self the head aches (no kidding with the gas fumes) of having to replace remanufactured a dozen times. See this thread for my experience.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...067&highlight=
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Last edited by morrisroad; 04-16-2012 at 06:24 AM.
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  #43  
Old 11-17-2012, 06:13 PM
chickenalfredo chickenalfredo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrisroad View Post
Take a look at this thread and you can see that 198K they looked clean on my car.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...274&highlight=

I recommend going with brand new Siemens injectors. Yes, you will pay more, and save your self the head aches (no kidding with the gas fumes) of having to replace remanufactured a dozen times. See this thread for my experience.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...067&highlight=
Are the OEM BMW injectors the new Siemens injectors? Where can I get these new ones? I live in Anchorage, Alaska where its common to be below 20 degrees F so this happens a lot.
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  #44  
Old 11-19-2012, 06:08 AM
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You can buy Siemens injectors online. Pelican Parts has been a good online supplier for me. But there are a few others.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:29 AM
Wayne's World Wayne's World is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenalfredo View Post
Are the OEM BMW injectors the new Siemens injectors? Where can I get these new ones? I live in Anchorage, Alaska where its common to be below 20 degrees F so this happens a lot.
Email Mr. Injector (Google it). He can probably point you in the cheapest direction.

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Old 11-19-2012, 11:43 PM
chickenalfredo chickenalfredo is offline
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Thanks guys, I am sending Mr. Injector an email right now. I have a 2001 325 xi sedan bmw. Real oem says my car is a M54 engine. http://realoem.com/bmw/select.do?vin=EE78757. These Bosch type 3 will fit my BMW right?

The product number for these new guys are 13537546245. The ones that realoem pulls up for my cars vin is 13537546244 (I assume these are the Bosch type 2). Because I'm living in a cold state, it was the OP's recommendation to get the newer Type 3 ones. Just out of curiosity, where did this information come from? That the newer type was better for the cold?

Thanks guys! I need to resolve this quickly because I really dont want my car to catch on fire in the morning.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:08 PM
Wayne's World Wayne's World is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenalfredo View Post
Thanks guys, I am sending Mr. Injector an email right now. I have a 2001 325 xi sedan bmw. Real oem says my car is a M54 engine. http://realoem.com/bmw/select.do?vin=EE78757. These Bosch type 3 will fit my BMW right?

The product number for these new guys are 13537546245. The ones that realoem pulls up for my cars vin is 13537546244 (I assume these are the Bosch type 2). Because I'm living in a cold state, it was the OP's recommendation to get the newer Type 3 ones. Just out of curiosity, where did this information come from? That the newer type was better for the cold?

Thanks guys! I need to resolve this quickly because I really dont want my car to catch on fire in the morning.
Cool. I didn't replace my injectors but rebuilt them myself and semi-professionally cleaned them. I bought the parts from them. He offers the service but at the time I couldnt afford to be down more than 24hrs. Best thing I ever did for the vehicle. Made the most noticeable improvement in performance.

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Old 01-30-2013, 12:47 PM
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When ordering the o-rings for the fuel injectors, consider the following also:
- What is the complete list of o-rings to order for routine oil change maintenance tasks (1)
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Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
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See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need
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  #49  
Old 05-22-2013, 09:14 PM
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For the record, this was asked today:
Quote:
Originally Posted by burbankE34 View Post
Can leaky fuel injectors be repaired ? If they can, can this repair be reliably DIYed ? And is such a repair reliable ?

What causes them to leak in the first place ?

Thanks.



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Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need
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  #50  
Old 05-23-2013, 07:12 AM
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doru doru is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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Mein Auto: 2003 530iA
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
For the record, this was asked today:
If it's a "solid state" injector - it's no problem. The leak is developing at the O-ring level.
If it's a 2 part injector (like the Siemens for the M54), you have to assess the situation: It can leak at the O-rings, or the injector is toast and leaks where the 2 parts mate - like in my case. There's nothing you can do about that. You need new injector(s).
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