Motor Trend comparo: 1st Cadillac ATS, 2nd C350, 3rd 335i

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

OK.

So let me get this straight.

Non F30 owners come in here and wax on about the E46 ZHP(have not driven it, cannot confirm Kool-aid worthy ness) and **** all over the driving dynamics of the F30(some of them without driving one).

Now I see reply after reply going on about the greatness of the E93 335is.

I am going to **** on your car now, cuz this must be fun for me too!

The E93 weights as much as a tank, it approaches 2 tons. The folding hardtop is pandering to non enthusiasts who sweat it on cars like SL's and SLK's. It did not make it a better car, just heavier and more complicated.

Stop touting it as some kind of drivers car.

My OLD E36/7 has tons of feel, feedback, sound, and has no driving aids other than ABS if you want to call it that. It's still heavy at 2950-3050lbs. But it's pure and nothing E9x without a roof can touch it. I am not even factoring in straight line as my 13lbs of boost has really skewed the equation. Looks, the E93 also gets slayed. I see them all day driven by women. My M Roadster was not even offered with an automatic and the lines, oh how well they have aged. I have had people ask me if it's "The new Z" semi-regularly.

So now I am going to go into every E93 thread I can find on every forum and **** on their cars compared to my OLD out of date car. This also applies to the newer Z4, I am going to go rag on their **** too.

I am going to feel so much better about myself now!

I am sure it will be much appreciated.

I wouldn't **** on any other forums as its a waste of time unless you have something constructive worth adding to the threads. It's like a whining kid without actually telling people why they are whining and what they want.

As an E46 ZHP owner that will go with an ED F30 probably by the 3rd year of it's existence in 2014, we just wanted to get back the whole package feel of what BMW used to make and perfected with specific lines of their cars. Now if they released an E46 M3 sedan with the steering rack of the ZHP or later model E46's then that would be a great benchmark. Yes, I will keep my ZHP and add the F30.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the E36/7 but it also had it's shortcomings when it came to refinement. There were lots of rattles and misc parts that would brake over time in the interior/exterior. The E36/7 removed the LSD unless it was an M line, but it did add the DSC/ABS management that sync'd with each other, enhancing the driving dynamics. So you can't say it was a pure sports car. If you want something like that you would have to go as far back as the E21 or an AW11 MR2 like my car (no power steering, brakes, abs, lsd, suspension nannies and it's MR).

I think the most important point that the MT reviewer missed is how versatile the F30 is for the modern times. Compared to the ATS and Merc, none of them can switch to the modes- eco, sport, comfort, sport+ like a swiss army knife. Yes, it's rubbery, but that can be fixed with the BMW M Performance suspension parts.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Your Carrera GTS has great steering feel and feedback and sure as hell should handle better than my old antiquated M Roadster.

However, when it comes to a straight line you are out of your league with a 500hp small car. I also get to work on it myself, pay almost nothing to ensure it, and know that I was able to pay cash(WHEN STILL YOUNG) and have all my hair so no one thinks it's my midlife crisis purchase.

I have a lot of years left before my 911 purchase comes, and if anything it's going to be a GT3 which I can do track days in. The Roadster is worth very little and almost irreplaceable so it will always be in my stable.

Please stop comparing a modified car to a stock car. He can slap on a turbo charger and leave you in his dust. Your point is moot.

Cutting and pasting what I posted in the E46 forum on 1 of the threads regarding the 3 series evolution. Care to agree or disagree?

This probably sums it up on the 3 series line of evolution in regards to US models:

E21= great entry into the sport compact luxury line, a smaller version of the 3.0 csl. Underpowered with the I4 but still a great chassis. Lots of quirks and rattles. Typical of a new model entry. Used both I4 & I6 engines.

E30= huge leap in technology and refinement going into the 80-90s, took advantage of better EFI, abs, LSD, disc brakes, chassis tuning. IMHO, the crown jewel & best 3 series from BMW in terms of authentic driving experience with no artificial driving assists. Used both I4 & I6 engines.

E36= another leap in technology, design and refinement, took advantage of OBD I & II, I6 engine only, VANOS. Carried over most of the technology advancements from the E30. The last mostly mechanical/hydraulic 3 series BMW built.

E46= great refinement above the previous model but not a leap. Fixed the quirks and rawness of the E36 such as the rattles and loose parts that would occur over time. Took advantage of Double VANOS, more advanced and refined suspension nannies- asc/dsc, abs; however it eliminated the LSD on everything except the M3. Fly-by-wire technology added which detracted the linear response of the older mechanical/hydraulic system; added a delay in response and precision but was minimal compared to the E9x with variable steering. IMHO, this was the best and most refined compromise for an authentic classic driving experience with minimal electronic nannies assistance. Used I6 engines only.

E9x= target market -> mainstream, totally different path towards the evolution of the 3 series. Took advantage of FI engines- turbocharging, variable steering, adaptive suspension, stiffer chassis even if the body got longer, bigger and heavier. The FI engines are great masterpieces, best part of the E9x evolution. They responded similar to an 8 cylinder engine with the fuel economy of a 6. The stiffer chassis made great improvements in limit driving & safety; however, the driving experience became too harsh with not enough refinement or feedback (whole car dynamics was skewed). It felt like they couldn't find the perfect balance with the engine, chassis & suspension that the E46 perfectly refined from the E36. Suspension tuning was geared for the more aggressive, probably to also compensate for the FI engines. Steering input added variable steering which added to the non-linear feel of the fly-by-wire along with more loss of precision; probably over compensation by the new tech. The interior was revamped to the more common driver oriented full controls vs the all passenger concept of keeping all the controls accessible from the center of the car. Since it was their first foray it was expectedly low quality for a first effort. Cabin insulation also seemed to be increased so external decibel levels weren't as high; numbing the sensory experience. However sometimes you need to hear the tire squeals and engine revs as a confirmation of what your hands and feet are feeling.

F9x= target market -> even more mainstream Lexus crowd. New technology are turbocharged I4, adjustable situational settings, regenerative braking, auto start/stop, dynamic handling (variable steering assist & adaptive suspension). The F30 is the closest thing to a Swiss Army knife BMW, it allows you to customize your ride depending on your driving style an mood. Unfortunately, due to this please all target it compromised on the BMW driving experience of old- the sportiest setting isn't close to the ultra aggressive E9x or the perfectly refined E46 or raw E30. It sort of falls in between the E90 and E46; imho, this is due to the extra size and weight gain of the car. The current F30 is as big and heavy as the old E39 5 series from the early 2000s. The dynamic handling package is great for people who don't make the driving experience a priority and rely on the electronic nannies to make them a better driver. The interior has improved with the F30, way better than the E90. All in all the F30 is a good all around car which just needs improvement on the top end sporty experience.

Originally Posted by MMME30W

Ill possibly give you points one and two. If he was joking, it was hard to tell.

The fact Mr. Lieberman didn't realize the controls were on the wheel and/or voice command underlines my point about his incompetence, no? So why does it make him an expert on vehicle dynamics if he can't be bothered to read the owners manual?

But yes I agree a recent C&D review I read stated the ATS handling was superior to the F30. They also trashed Cue IIRC.

Great points though.

If you want to discredit him for not knowing how to use CUE, you have to discredit all reviewers, including those of C&D and CR.

A lot of people like MT reviewer Carlos' opinions. Some pointed out how he totally loved the new F30 335i when he reviewed it solo, calling it the perfect handling car in the segment.

In a later comparo between the F30 335i and 2013 S4 however, he put the S4 quite above the 335i. The fact is, people want to hear what they like to hear.

You will not like how the ATS drives, if you already don't like Caddy as a brand. Or if you drive like BJ, never goes above speed limit, don't see how one can push his car into or out of corners on public roads, you will never be able to tell the difference in driving dynamics among the 3, C, A or ATS. But if you like to take your car out on the twisties, push it as much as you can when there is no traffic around, then you can quickly tell the differences among those cars and their emphases.

Bottom line, we all see our daily driving in traffic as a burden, we all want to find things in our cars to ease such burden. Some find nice sound systems the key to make the driving more tolerable, some see comfortable leather and soft suspension as the cure, others like to take a detour every day and blast the car through twisties to forget about the dreary commute. Yet some pick what they think is the best looking car with the most pleasing colors inside and out to compensate. Of course some drive by the badge and the badge alone makes them forget all the daily stress.

Each of the above drivers will walk away with very different views about the same cars.

Originally Posted by av98

I. . . none of them can switch to the modes- eco, sport, comfort, sport+ like a swiss army knife.

Therein lies one of the major issues with the F30; like said knife, it is trying to be all things - excelling at none, oversized, and heavy.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

e46 for me was the pinacle of the of the 3 series, for me.

Plus one.

Originally Posted by beden1

GM already did the ZR1 which is $30K more than the ZO6. I actually preferred my ZO6 because it was more of a seat of your pants sports car, but the ZR1 on paper is hard to beat.

Not what I was saying, that is not an example.

The platform and tooling was established nearly a decade before the Zr1 came about. The money in the Zr1 over the Z06 is carbon fiber and hardware. It's not in the development of the vehicle where the money is built in for the higher MSRP of the base car that could allow for tooling changes and material in a proper interior.

Look at the Viper. It had a comical interior too. Now that its been redesigned, they made interior a priority while also allowing for a higher MSRP.

Originally Posted by beden1

From what I can tell from spending time in that forum, the 993 enthusiasts feel the air cooled Porsches were the last real Porsches. The 997.2 owners know better.

The same conversations are happening over there between the 997.2 and the new 991 models. The 991 models are considered to be softer like the F30.

That is the scenario I am describing, it's another analogy that applies to F30 debates we are seeing exhausted here.

Originally Posted by av98

I wouldn't **** on any other forums as its a waste of time unless you have something constructive worth adding to the threads. It's like a whining kid without actually telling people why they are whining and what they want.

As an E46 ZHP owner that will go with an ED F30 probably by the 3rd year of it's existence in 2014, we just wanted to get back the whole package feel of what BMW used to make and perfected with specific lines of their cars. Now if they released an E46 M3 sedan with the steering rack of the ZHP or later model E46's then that would be a great benchmark. Yes, I will keep my ZHP and add the F30.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the E36/7 but it also had it's shortcomings when it came to refinement. There were lots of rattles and misc parts that would brake over time in the interior/exterior. The E36/7 removed the LSD unless it was an M line, but it did add the DSC/ABS management that sync'd with each other, enhancing the driving dynamics. So you can't say it was a pure sports car. If you want something like that you would have to go as far back as the E21 or an AW11 MR2 like my car (no power steering, brakes, abs, lsd, suspension nannies and it's MR).

I think the most important point that the MT reviewer missed is how versatile the F30 is for the modern times. Compared to the ATS and Merc, none of them can switch to the modes- eco, sport, comfort, sport+ like a swiss army knife. Yes, it's rubbery, but that can be fixed with the BMW M Performance suspension parts.

My M-Roadster has a cheap interior, but it's held up well. It's also got 77k on it's original brakes and original clutch. Some of those components point to being over built.

You have to understand, my M Roadster is brought up only as an example of how silly it is to come into other forums to poop on the newer car while putting the older one on a pedestal.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Please stop comparing a modified car to a stock car. He can slap on a turbo charger and leave you in his dust. Your point is moot.

See above.

Also, do you know what it takes to add forced induction to a 911? Slap on a Turbo? lol. Very tight-hard engines to work on. To properly turbo one is $10-20k, or the cost of my Roadster and what I have in. Meanwhile, my blower was a bolt on kit I installed with hand tools inside of a weekend, all for $1800 in used components because they made so many that they are available used. The amount of 2nd hand NA-911 Turbo kits out there, let alone 2nd hand and they will still require engine out install and still cost tons of money.

My car may be modified, but it's girly, so it washes out.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Not what I was saying, that is not an example.

The platform and tooling was established nearly a decade before the Zr1 came about. The money in the Zr1 over the Z06 is carbon fiber and hardware. It's not in the development of the vehicle where the money is built in for the higher MSRP of the base car that could allow for tooling changes and material in a proper interior.

Look at the Viper. It had a comical interior too. Now that its been redesigned, they made interior a priority while also allowing for a higher MSRP.


That is the scenario I am describing, it's another analogy that applies to F30 debates we are seeing exhausted here.



My M-Roadster has a cheap interior, but it's held up well. It's also got 77k on it's original brakes and original clutch. Some of those components point to being over built.

You have to understand, my M Roadster is brought up only as an example of how silly it is to come into other forums to poop on the newer car while putting the older one on a pedestal.



See above.

Also, do you know what it takes to add forced induction to a 911? Slap on a Turbo? lol. Very tight-hard engines to work on. To properly turbo one is $10-20k, or the cost of my Roadster and what I have in. Meanwhile, my blower was a bolt on kit I installed with hand tools inside of a weekend, all for $1800 in used components because they made so many that they are available used. The amount of 2nd hand NA-911 Turbo kits out there, let alone 2nd hand and they will still require engine out install and still cost tons of money.

My car may be modified, but it's girly, so it washes out.

You didn't get my point. You can't compare your modified car to his stock car. I don't care how old it is or how hard it is to work on it's engine. If you're trying to make a point, compare apples to apples, not oranges. No matter how hard it is, once he modifies his car, you stand no chance. Thus, your point is moot. I can slap a VF- 625 supercharger onto e92 M3 and leave you in my wake. Common sense tells us that, usually a car that has been modified will usually beat a stock car. There are people with 1000+ HP Supra's and NSX's that have the ability to kill Lambo's and Ferrari's.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

My M-Roadster has a cheap interior, but it's held up well. It's also got 77k on it's original brakes and original clutch. Some of those components point to being over built.

You have to understand, my M Roadster is brought up only as an example of how silly it is to come into other forums to poop on the newer car while putting the older one on a pedestal.

What's wrong with holding the previous models as a high standard compared to the current; especially if they are well deserved? Shouldn't all new cars be better than the previous or eclipse it's predecessors. And if they can't currently but offer the option to, all new car owners should be informed.

Wouldn't you want your F30 to be as close to your M roadster?

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

You didn't get my point. You can't compare your modified car to his stock car. I don't care how old it is or how hard it is to work on it's engine. If you're trying to make a point, compare apples to apples, not oranges. No matter how hard it is, once he modifies his car, you stand no chance. Thus, your point is moot. I can slap a VF- 625 supercharger onto e92 M3 and leave you in my wake. Common sense tells us that, usually a car that has been modified will usually beat a stock car. There are people with 1000+ HP Supra's and NSX's that have the ability to kill Lambo's and Ferrari's.

You dont get my point that my car was brought up to point out its annoying and silly to do so.

I dont need to be lectured on modified car comparisons as I am well aware. Its all absurd and half serious.

My car always has a chance.

We can get dumber.

There are turbo kits for my car. S52s have shown 1000whp lol. We can go round and round lol.

Originally Posted by Slick Willy

side note: The guy in the review falls much more into the "hipster douche" category than the "motor head" or "enthusiast" category. I give him zero credibility.

Well said !!! Any reviewer who rates a C350 ahead of a F30-335i is an ignorant fool. Until recently, my wife owned a C350 and now drives a 2011 E93. When comparing driving dynamics, the C350 doesn't even come close to either E9X-335i or F30-335i. The C350 is a capable highway cruiser, but it is most certainly not a car for enthusiasts.

As for that Cadillac, I would not wish to be caught dead in one. Having driven BMWs since 1984, I admit I'm slightly biased, but I recognize ugly styling when I see it ! One of many reasons why the ATS is not flying off the lot !

Meanwhile, sales of F30 are increasing and my BMW shares are appreciating ! Bravo to the designers and engineers of the F30-335i M Sport ! It is a truly fabulous machine !

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

You didn't get my point. You can't compare your modified car to his stock car. I don't care how old it is or how hard it is to work on it's engine. If you're trying to make a point, compare apples to apples, not oranges. No matter how hard it is, once he modifies his car, you stand no chance. Thus, your point is moot. I can slap a VF- 625 supercharger onto e92 M3 and leave you in my wake. Common sense tells us that, usually a car that has been modified will usually beat a stock car. There are people with 1000+ HP Supra's and NSX's that have the ability to kill Lambo's and Ferrari's.

I agree and thanks for pointing this out. I used to read these arguments over at the Corvette Forum where owners of base Corvettes would say they could beat a ZO6 if only they added a blower or turbos and a race cam. etc. The problem with this logic, is that once you modify, it is no longer a stock model that can be compared.

Anyone can modify their cars if they have the money and time to do so. IMO however, those modifications usually end up ruining the balance of the car as the design engineers originally put together.

There was one regular poster at CF that I really admired. He bought a new '06 ZO6 and still regularly races it without any modifications whatsoever except for track tires. He set out to develop his racing skills as measured by other stock ZO6s, and has since set all-time ZO6 track records in his car.

Originally Posted by beden1

I agree and thanks for pointing this out. I used to read these arguments over at the Corvette Forum where owners of base Corvettes would say they could beat a ZO6 if only they added a blower or turbos and a race cam. etc. The problem with this logic, is that once you modify, it is no longer a stock model that can be compared.

Anyone can modify their cars if they have the money and time to do so. IMO however, those modifications usually end up ruining the balance of the car as the design engineers originally put together.

There was one regular poster at CF that I really admired. He bought a new '06 ZO6 and still regularly races it without any modifications whatsoever except for track tires. He set out to develop his racing skills as measured by other stock ZO6s, and has since set all-time ZO6 track records in his car.

You miss the point.

Its all a silly argument. You say my cars girly. That's kind of funny. My highly modified car is kind of funny.

My point is everyone wants to play up their cars while dissing someone else's. In the end there is always someone else there to one up.

I had fun calling out people who have not even driven some of the cars they ridicule.

We are in Florida until Christmas. Ms. Audio's Jaguar came off lease and we returned it 2 weeks ago. I will miss that car but probably will not replace it as we don't really need to keep a car in Florida car anymore.

We are in Melbourne today in a Hertz Mercedes C Class. I am parked next to an F30 Luxury Line (I think it's a Luxury). The BMW and the MB are the two nicest cars parked on the main street and are surrounded by Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Fords, etc. I have been sitting on a bench across the street from where we are parked and with the exception of me nobody has paid any attention to the F30 or the Mercedes.

Hertz had a Mercedes C63 AMG rental when I picked the C250 at Palm Beach International Airport. It would have been about $9,000 to rent it for a month so I passed.

FWIW I like the C 250 but it does not drive as well as my 335i and I assume it does not drive as well as an F30 based on the fact that the vast majority of posters here who have driven both prefer the F30. But overall it is a very nice car that I am sure most of those who own one are happy with.


CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

We are in Florida until Christmas. Ms. Audio's Jaguar came off lease and we returned it 2 weeks ago. I will miss that car but probably will not replace it as we don't really need to keep a car in Florida car anymore.

We are in Melbourne today in a Hertz Mercedes C Class. I am parked next to an F30 Luxury Line (I think it's a Luxury). The BMW and the MB are the two nicest cars parked on the main street and are surrounded by Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Fords, etc. I have been sitting on a bench across the street from where we are parked and with the exception of me nobody has paid any attention to the F30 or the Mercedes.

Hertz had a Mercedes C63 AMG rental when I picked up my car. I inquired about it but it would have been close to $9,000 to rent it for a month so I passed. FWIW I like the C 250 but it does not drive as well as my 335i and I assume it does not drive as well as an F30 based on the fact that the vast majority of posters here who have driven both prefer the F30.

You should have rented a Corvette. I used to take my ZO6 to Stuart and up through Melbourne and would get people waving and giving me the thumbs up everywhere I went. Those areas are largely populated by fans of US performance cars.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You miss the point.

Its all a silly argument. You say my cars girly. That's kind of funny. My highly modified car is kind of funny.

My point is everyone wants to play up their cars while dissing someone else's. In the end there is always someone else there to one up.

I had fun calling out people who have not even driven some of the cars they ridicule.

So, you modified a girl's car to compensate for issues you may have? I'm still trying to figure out how we got to the mine is bigger than yours conversation.

Originally Posted by av98

Can't really call yourself a 3 series hard core enthusiast unless you've been in one since the E30s. Or at least driven all iterations of the 3 series from the initial E21 on up.

I'm not calling myself a hardcore 3 Series enthusiast at all.

Just saying that I'm a hardcore E90/F30 3 Series owner for the past 7 years and understand BMW's non-enthusiast strategy quite well as I'm that target customer. While the enthusiasts lament the growing size and softening ride, I embrace it as it's exactly what I wanted.

BJ

Originally Posted by av98

Now that's more 3 series experience than any E9x or F30 owner. I'll take Beden's word over BJ all day.

The review is not comparing an M3 to a Porsche.

The review is comparing a 3 Series to a Cadillac and a Mercedes in its basic trim for the average driver. Getting an enthusiasts point of view on a car that's no longer for enthusiasts is a waste of time. Might as well just copy/paste "BMW should make another E46" over and over again.

BJ

Originally Posted by beden1

I really don't care about the Cadillac and I agree with you that it's a moot point. But, and as I stated before, I wish BMW left the 3 Series as their sports sedan and did what they did with the F30 to a 4 Series. There are many years of 3 Series tradition that they tampered with (and that includes the 5 Series which I did spend a day with a new 535i loaner that was nicely equipped).

Your wish has been granted. It's exactly what Cadillac is doing and it's failing miserably.

Today's sport sedan buyer doesn't want a compact car with an uncomfortable back seat and a bedrail for a suspension. Making a smaller, tighter 3 Series would cripple BMW in their most important vehicle.

And before you attempt to debate that statement, look at the facts. BMW has decades of realworld consumer data and the F30 reflects precisely what it's customers want. The car is bigger, softer, more comfortable. It's what we want.

The reason you dislike the F30 is because you're not the target customer. It's not a surprise. Same for this particular comparo author. "Boo hoo, the F30 is too rubbery and the ATS is very stiff, therefore the ATS is the car I want to drive." Author for an enthusiast magazine and the typical 3 Series driver two very different things.

BJ

Originally Posted by dtc100

You are paying less for your F30 L328i than your E90 M328i, so your new F30 L328i is cheaper to have

I'm just a better negotiator and leased the car in a very competitive environment (NYC) vs a very uncompetitive one (NH).

BJ

Originally Posted by dtc100

He also complained about ATS being too harsh, it was only so in the sport mode. The F30 is softer. Unfortunately BJ is right, BMW is going more and more after those who care more about luxury, comfort, and gagetry, than driving. But also unfortunately, BJ thinks no one should complain about such trend. More unfortunate is he thinks every Bimmer driver thinks like him.

This is not a surprise. This has been going on since the launch of the E90. Your comments are straight out of 2005.

Everything he said he disliked about the F30 is something I love. Said it was very fast but you can't feel the speed. Said it was very fast but very quiet. Said it handled very well but was better in a straight line than on twisty roads. Said it handled well but he couldn't feel feedback through the steering wheel. Hello. That's what a luxury car should be. Effortlessly fast, quiet in the cabin, smooth to steer, a rocket on the highway.

BMW sacrificed the twisty performance for the straight line because that's what it's customers do with the car- we pick up the kids from soccer practice on residential streets and we commute to work on highways. That's the priority. Getting that ride 100% right is more important than making that ride too harsh and uncomfortable for the 2x a month we find ourselves on roads that anyone could remotely call 'fun'.

BMW makes a 1 Series and a Roadster for the enthusiast types. The midsized sedan is no longer your plaything.

BJ

Originally Posted by woodswatchco

Good luck getting full trade on your car. The dealers are out of control these days. I was offered "rough book" value from four different dealers for my mint condition Audi A4. Evenfrom the Audi dealer to trade in on a new A4. I was told that the reason is that they all now go by "auction prices" instead of any book that is available to consumers. Such a joke.

Try Carmax. Sometimes they do far better than dealers.

Originally Posted by UnderSteer

So now the guy that buys cars that are meant to be driven slowly to impress the downtrodden has become an authority on vehicle dynamics. Unfortunately there is more to understanding vehicle dynamics than parroting what you read in a magazine review about cars you have never driven on a tracks you have never been to. With all due respect I seriously doubt that without doing a Google search our friend Mr. James could come up with a good description of oversteer vs. understeer, has ever corrected a slide, knows what trail braking is or has ever driven a car remotely close to the limits or can heel and toe downshift (or drive an MT at all). BJ should stick to his forte (imaginary status and made up marketing data) because his imaginary road tests are seriously lacking credibility.

You miss the point entirely.

The days of the 3 Series being an enthusiasts car are over. BMW makes a 1 Series and a Roadster for that purpose. The midsize sedan is no longer your plaything.

So when I refer to "driving dynamics", I'm talking about how it drives from the perspective of an actual buyer- someone who uses the car to take the kids to baseball practice on residential roads and who commutes to work on highways. For us, the F30 is a quantum leap in the right direction. No longer a small car that's too tight for transporting three kids, no longer a harsh car that makes passengers nauseous or cracks the eggs in the trunk.

This concept of continuing to view the BMW 3 Series as a sports car has got to stop. It's not that car anymore. Cry all you want, but these endless threads saying how the F30 isn't an E46 or the ATS is a tighter car. Hello. Not a surprise. It's by design.

Telling F30 owners we bought a bad car or it's not a "true" BMW is ridiculous because it makes the assumption that we got suckered in somehow. We didn't. We bought the car because it suits our purposes perfectly. Respect that.

BJ

Originally Posted by MMME30W

Can't commenting on the driving dynamics component of his two-element review, having driven none of these cars. However Mr Lieberman does not describe the driving experience like other test reviewers do that are familiar with a track.

Not sure I would use this review as a basis of determining which of these cars to buy, myself.

Exactly.

It's a ludicrous "comparo", created just to cause controversy and sell some magazines, drive some hits to a website. 60% of the review is about the infotainment system, the other 40% some quick summary that contradicts the comparo on the same cars a few months ago.

BJ

Originally Posted by woodswatchco

I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car. The new "lines" offer buyers the choice of what they want. This is the #1 reason that I left Audi for BMW. Audi offers the least horsepower in the class, no special colors, no body kit, no special wheels, no rear wheel drive, no option to delete sunroof, etc. Mercedes doesn't even offer a manual in the C250! The 328i may have softened a bit but it has also been improved in a million other ways. It is still the best sports sedan out there and you can choose which flavor you want instead of "one size fits all".

+1

Precisely. The definition of "Ultimate Driving Machine" includes the entire driving experience, not just the part where the rubber meets the road.

To the average 3 Series consumer, a quiet cabin, greater legroom, a bigger trunk, an upgraded audio system, a standard LCD screen, free Bluetooth, a classier interior, easy-to-buy "lines", and all the other goodies is what makes the experience better.

There's nothing wrong with performance enthusiasm. It's an awesome hobby so long as you target the right car for it. What the 3 Series used to be in 1995 and what it is in 2013 are two different things, time for the autocross crowd to focus on the 1 Series, the Roadster, the ATS, whatever it is that meets their criteria. The 3 Series is no longer that car.

BJ