Motor Trend comparo: 1st Cadillac ATS, 2nd C350, 3rd 335i

Originally Posted by beden1

Historically, the 3 Series was the sport model and the 5 Series was a sport sedan with some luxury. With BMW, you had to pay up to get more luxury. The 7 and the 6 Series were luxury with superior handling characteristics.

With the 3, perhaps you had to pay up for luxury because otherwise the price looked outrageous. But I think they realized they couldn't play that game anymore and threw in a few things in the base 3, such as power seats BMW had to adjust their meaning of stripper not to be too out of touch with today's market.

Originally Posted by beden1

I have sat in an F30 and the luxury portion has not changed. You still have to pay up to get luxury in a BMW.

You do, but they raised a little the baseline you start from. At least now you have power seats, dimming mirrors, folding back seat, etc. Still, you get plastic silver trim, a steering wheel that looks homely compared to the line cars (at least in pictures), plastic seats, etc.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

With the 3, perhaps you had to pay up for luxury because otherwise the price looked outrageous. But I think they realized they couldn't play that game anymore and threw in a few things in the base 3, such as power seats BMW had to adjust their meaning of stripper not to be too out of touch with today's market.

By luxury, I mean the quality of the interior appointments, the comfort of the seating, the added creature comforts, and the fit and finish.

Originally Posted by beden1

Historically, the 3 Series was the sport model and the 5 Series was a sport sedan with some luxury. With BMW, you had to pay up to get more luxury. The 7 and the 6 Series were luxury with superior handling characteristics.

The 7 still is a luxury car with superior handling. In comfort plus mode there is no such thing as a pothole. In sport plus mode the suspension firms up, the shifts become more aggressive, the throttle mapping is more aggressive and I swear to God the car becomes 18" shorter and 400 lbs lighter.


CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The 7 still is a luxury car with superior handling. In comfort plus mode there is no such thing as a pothole. In sport plus mode the suspension firms up, the shifts become more aggressive, the throttle mapping is more aggressive and I swear to God the car becomes 18" shorter and 400 lbs lighter.


CA

I said historically, and it is comforting to know that the 7 Series is still treated as a flagship model by BMW.

Originally Posted by beden1

By luxury, I mean the quality of the interior appointments, the comfort of the seating, the added creature comforts, and the fit and finish.

I honestly don't know what a luxury car is today. I just went for a ride in my sisters highly optioned Honda Accord and to be perfectly honest with its leather interior, fit and finish and creature comforts it seems as luxurious as a 3 Series or a C Class Mercedes (and this is not a criticism of BMW or Mercedes).

CA

Originally Posted by beden1

You have turned what had started out as a fun exchange into very offensive slurs. You and BJ should be so lucky to reach my age, with the great physical conditioning that I maintain, and with the good fortune to live a comfortable life.

So let me get this straight.

Without saying ANYTHING personal to you, you said I drive a girly car and that I am compensating, I need medication, and that I am talking to you-which puts me out of my league.

So I tease you right back and YOU are the one who has the right to be offended and make me out to be the bad guy?

You have made nothing but sweeping statements, assumptions as to who I am and my life style and any time the mirror is reversed at your statements you skirt the issue some more and then we land on you being so fit, so financially well off-oh and offended.

For real?

I have taken all your jabs and kept it moving, kept it light hearted. And boom, I hurt YOUR feelings with a joke about needing wiener pills. You are too smart and have too thick a skin for that, right?

I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

The fact that I am always willing to admit when BJ is wrong has also helped defuse the situation.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

The fact that I am always willing to admit when BJ is wrong has also helped defuse the situation.

CA

I mentioned my wife's Saab my first week and BJ made a comment eluding to never being caught dead in such a thing. I was going to pounce when someone made me aware of him and I began seeing all of the humor in his posts. Now I savor BJ posts.

I have had the most heated forum wars one can imagine with epic Photoshop battles. Things got waaaay personal even breaching into girlfriends and wives. But in the end bygones were had and laughs continue to this day.

In the end it's a car forum and people always find a way to take things too seriously. But sometimes people go a bit too far. Even I have my hot buttons. I especially hate it when someone acts like an tough guy and says something very bold that I know for a fact would never say such a thing to my face. Basic human respect needs to exist, even online.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I was referring to maneuvering around parking lots and driveways and I honestly do not find that it requires too much effort. I asked Ms. Audio (who has an issue diminished strength in her right arm due to an injury) what she thought of the steering effort in the E93 and she also does find it to be too heavy. The harsh suspension with the OEM dampers and the RFTs was another story as we both hated it. At this point I am happy with the way the 335i drives. It will be interesting to get back to it next month after 8 weeks in a C250 Mercedes.

CA

CA, my sister just picked up a 2013 328i 'vert and I can tell you BMW fixed the suspension problem. The car floats. No more crashing...at all.

P.S. Mrs. Audio should get an F-Type. I swear, if I see a F-Type coupe in 2015 after my lease ends, I will have no problem signing on the dotted line. It's either that or a Cayman.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

CA, my sister just picked up a 2013 328i 'vert and I can tell you BMW fixed the suspension problem. The car floats. No more crashing...at all.

Does she have the standard or sport suspension?

From what I have heard from a few sources they fixed the Pothole Explosion issue at the expense of increased body roll. If that is the case (and I have no first hand experience and will stand corrected if someone who does says otherwise) it seems that BMW is still having an issue coming up with a balance between comfort and handling,
CA

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

CA, my sister just picked up a 2013 328i 'vert and I can tell you BMW fixed the suspension problem. The car floats. No more crashing...at all.

P.S. Mrs. Audio should get an F-Type. I swear, if I see a F-Type coupe in 2015 after my lease ends, I will have no problem signing on the dotted line. It's either that or a Cayman.

The F-Type with a manual looks to be very promising. I am smitten with what I have seen of the new Boxster S and Cayman. So I also will be test driving some cars in a year or two.

Originally Posted by SARAFIL

If you haven't spent time with an older model with hydraulic steering, you might not notice the difference.

And let me clarify-- there are two distinct things here. Steering feel vs steering "weight" or amount of power assist.

BMW could have increased the power assist to make it lighter to appease Cadillac/Lexus type buyers while maintaining feel (those that have been here for a while will recall that BMW tried this when they launched the 2001 330i with significantly more boost than the 2000 328i, although at that point enthusiasts freaked, and BMW started offering a steering rack retrofit to install the rack with less boost).

The F30 system with the sport trim allows you to change the amount of assist, but even in sport mode it just becomes heavy with no feel vs light with no feel. It's hard to keep steering feel when you go from hydraulic to electric, I honestly don't know if anyone else has figured out how to do it.

I have owned e90 335 and 328. And currently own an e90. I have owned plenty of BMWs. There is plenty of feel.

We will certainly be test driving an F Type as soon as they become available. I have no interest in an MT assuming the AT is as good as the one on the XKR and XKR-S.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Does she have the standard or sport suspension?

From what I have heard from a few sources they fixed the Pothole Explosion issue at the expense of increased body roll. If that is the case (and I have no first hand experience and will stand corrected if someone who does says otherwise) it seems that BMW is still having an issue coming up with a balance between comfort and handling,
CA

I believe she got the standard suspension. I haven't driven the car yet so I can't comment on the body roll, but when I get a chance I will make sure to post it comparing how different it feels compared to my e92 328xi.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

We will certainly be test driving an F Type as soon as they become available. I have no interest in an MT assuming the AT is as good as the one on the XKR and XKR-S.

CA

I believe they are using the same ZF 8-Speed Auto that we've seen in most of the recent BMW's. If that is the case, the transmission is amazing. BMW's got it tuned perfectly. Hopefully Jaguar can do the same.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

The fact that I am always willing to admit when BJ is wrong has also helped defuse the situation.

CA

It's really sad and weird. The E9x forum never got like this after the E90 came out. I find the F30 forum an unpleasant place to be much of the time. Yes, BJ, I spent a lot of time in the E9x forum when I still had an E46.

Regardless of any of the posts here, the F30 retains MUCH MORE of the 3 Series attributes than it changes. As a side note I'll mention that in my opinion the F30 steering in Sport mode is quite similar in effort and feel to the active steering on the E90, which my car has. It is a somewhat different feel, but it only took me about two days to adjust. And I have no difficultly transitioning between it and non-active steering in the E9x, which I like very much.

I've posted this previously, but I'll post it again. As we all know, the steering weight changes noticeably on the F30 in Sport mode. Unless there is something of which the Cadillac product specialist is unaware (entirely possible, based on my experience with product "specialists") the electrically assisted steering on the ATS makes no changes regardless of the driving mode. I am wholly unimpressed with the electrically assisted steering on the ATS. I was able to turn the steering wheel with my pinkie finger.

Yes, CA, it is always good to be able to admit when BJ is wrong.

Regarding steering heft.

There is nothing WRONG with the E series heft. There is nothing WRONG with the F30 heft.

I did find the E heavy for heavies sake. You know, kind of like when you shake a guys hand who goes overboard and it's way too firm of a hand shake. It just winds up being more than is needed to get the point across.

So there are plenty of people who can camp for it being great and others that will find it a turn off.

I find in Sport and Sport + both heft and feedback are fine. Not as much of both when compared to my E36, but still fine and better than most cars out there.

When the guys says "this is the best sports sedan you can buy right now", his eyes do a double take...
After that he says "while flawed" and "we think" the Cadillac is the best then says what we love to see is the engine and transmission in the BMW. In the middle of the video he said the BMW has the best navigation system. How could BMW be last?
Don't be taken by that review. Do your own test drive.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Regarding steering heft.

There is nothing WRONG with the E series heft. There is nothing WRONG with the F30 heft.

I did find the E heavy for heavies sake. You know, kind of like when you shake a guys hand who goes overboard and it's way too firm of a hand shake. It just winds up being more than is needed to get the point across.

So there are plenty of people who can camp for it being great and others that will find it a turn off.

I find in Sport and Sport + both heft and feedback are fine. Not as much of both when compared to my E36, but still fine and better than most cars out there.

Yes, I meant to mention that. Excepting Porsche type "semi-exotics" BMW steering is miles and miles and miles beyond the steering of virtually any other auto maker.


One other comment regarding the topic of this thread, having driven the F30 3er and the current C Class there are only two reasons one could possibly describe the C Class as having better driving dynamics and characteristics, in any way, than a 3er. The person would either have to be under the influence of crack or have a purposeful, biased bone to pick with the 3er. The C Class simply does not handle or drive as well as the 3er. Period. This reviewer's statement to the contrary eliminates his credibility.

Originally Posted by beden1

You have turned what had started out as a fun exchange into very offensive slurs. You and BJ should be so lucky to reach my age, with the great physical conditioning that I maintain, and with the good fortune to live a comfortable life.

Time out.

You started all this stuff and you continue to visit this forum for no reason other than to agitate F30 owners. What you said to JV was worse than what he threw back, and the only reason he felt the need to throw back is because of what you said in the first place.

Here's an idea: Stop bothering us and avoid getting your feelings hurt. Go back to the comfort of the forum that's designed just for you and speak positively about a BMW for a change.

BJ

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I think many of us here need to lighten up. BJ and I have a history here of going at it but several years ago we reached the point where we stopped taking each other (and ourselves) too seriousy.

CA

First off, I think this is a rather benign thread and no one is crossing any lines.

The root cause of tonight's discussion revolves around an E90 owner or two that swoops into the F30 forum multiple times a week and causes unwanted trouble. It's one thing to discuss the benefits and detriments of a particular vehicle you own or have an intention of owning; it's quite another thing to be consistently negative about a car you'll never own and troll a forum you don't belong in.

Yourself, Raider, Ice, you all play nice, offer good points of view. Mr. Beden and Mr. 100, different story.

BJ

Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM

When the guys says "this is the best sports sedan you can buy right now", his eyes do a double take....

Another thing that caught my attention was the very beginning of the review.....when he says that anyone looking for a $50k sport sedan is going to look at these three....the 3er, the C Class and the ATS. Really?! Nope. They're going to look at the 3er, the C Class and the A4. They might look at the ATS. At this point in time many of them aren't even going to realize the ATS is meant to be considered as a competitor in the class. Four years in and half the population can't even name Joe Biden as the vice president.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Another thing that caught my attention was the very beginning of the review.....when he says that anyone looking for a $50k sport sedan is going to looks at these three....the 3er, the C Class and the ATS. Nope. They're going to look at the 3er, the C Class and the A4. They might look at the ATS. At this point in time many of them aren't even going to realize the ATS is meant to be considered as a competitor in the class. Four years in and half the population can't even name Joe Biden as the vice president.

Precisely.

GM spends a lot of money advertising in the very same magazines that are suddenly giving unwarranted cred to the Cadillac brand after decades of trashing it.

Hmm. Wonder why.

BJ

Originally Posted by captainaudio

From what I have heard from a few sources they fixed the Pothole Explosion issue at the expense of increased body roll. If that is the case (and I have no first hand experience and will stand corrected if someone who does says otherwise) it seems that BMW is still having an issue coming up with a balance between comfort and handling,
CA

I found non-RFTs and lightweight wheels were a fix to the pothole explosions on my 335d.