F30, my first 3: Ignorance is bliss I guess...

Originally Posted by Chris90

The mileage sucked on the E90 loaners I've driven, like worse than my 330i despite being slower. I think BMW did what they had to do, leapfrog to the front of the class with mpg and power in the base 3 series. Can't think of a better example of BMW being a top engine maker.

Anyone complaining about sound can buy the 335i.

Or put a fart can on it.



I've seen people claim that the noise the engine makes is something like 90% of driving enjoyment. To those people I say, learn to drive.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The 2011 528 N52 without direct injection with 8AT, 22 & 32. The 2013 528 N20 with direct injection with 8AT, 24 & 34. 2011 328 N52 without direct injection with 6AT, 18 & 28. 4 mpg better on both ratings for the 2011 528, no difference except the transmission.

ofcourse the ZF8 is going to better than the ZF6 in the same car/engine. But a ZF8 n20 will be better MPG than a N52 ZF8. there is no debate there, you just posted the facts lol

You said the improved fuel economy was a result of the ZF8 and not the N20 and thats simply not true. its a result of both, just look at the facts you posted

any assumption on your part is not considered fact, and thus should not even be mentioned in this conversation. Just stick to the facts that we have.

2011 328i manual = 18/28
2013 328i manual = 22/32

Maybe that's a good indication of the benefit of the N20, plus stop/start etc.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

ofcourse the ZF8 is going to better than the ZF6 in the same car/engine. But a ZF8 n20 will be better MPG than a N52 ZF8. there is no debate there, you just posted the facts lol

You said the improved fuel economy was a result of the ZF8 and not the N20 and thats simply not true. its a result of both, just look at the facts you posted

any assumption on your part is not considered fact, and thus should not even be mentioned in this conversation. Just stick to the facts that we have.

The fact of the matter is that WAY more of the improvement in the fuel economy ratings for the F30 is due to the 8AT. The ratings for the 2013 528 are 24 & 34. For the 328 they are 23 & 33, the exact same ratings the 335 achieves.

Originally Posted by Chris90

2011 328i manual = 18/28
2013 328i manual = 22/32

Maybe that's a good indication of the benefit of the N20, plus stop/start etc.

Oh, yes, I forgot about the F30's start/stop advantage, which they say adds 1 mpg to the ratings it gets.

And, yes, this is a good example of how much more you get from a four paired to a manual transmission than paired to an automatic.

Interesting too is that the mileage goes the other way when you pair the manual with the six. Down to 20 & 30.



This is also a pretty clear indication that we have the N20 here in the U.S. because it was a money saver for BMW. Four bangers with manuals are the norm in Europe and it was much easier for BMW to ship this new motor over here than R&D a new, smaller inline six for the U.S. market. Add that to the fact that Audi already was only offering a four in the A4 and Merc was also moving to a four banger in the C and it was the perfect storm.

However, all of that does not change the fact that, contrary to popular argument, BMW did not have no choice other than a four to meet CAFE requirements. If they had wanted to they could have done it with another inline six. But, as is clearly indicated, most U.S. consumers don't give a rat's ass.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The fact of the matter is that WAY more of the improvement in the fuel economy ratings for the F30 is due to the 8AT. The ratings for the 2013 528 are 24 & 34. For the 328 they are 23 & 33, the exact same ratings the 335 achieves.

I dont think anyone really believes the 528 gets better mpg than the 328, especially when the 528 is 400lbs heavier.

I have had 528 loaners(n20+zf8) and the best i could get was 35mpg avg on my commute to work. i got 39mpg in the n20 and am getting 37mpg in the N55

.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

I dont think anyone really believes the 528 gets better mpg than the 328, especially when the 528 is 400lbs heavier.

No, I don't believe that. But, you wanted facts so I posted BMW's own EPA numbers. The bigger point is the small difference between the N20 numbers and the N55 numbers. That's one of the main reasons I maintain BMW could have done just as well with a smaller displacement turbo inline six if they had wanted to.


Another issue that I'll mention, but won't go with any further is that a four cylinder motor works harder than a six cylinder motor to make the same power. A 2.0 liter six would experience less stress than the 2.0 liter four making the same power.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

No, I don't believe that. But, you wanted facts so I posted BMW's own EPA numbers. The bigger point is the small difference between the N20 numbers and the N55 numbers. That's one of the main reasons I maintain BMW could have done just as well with a smaller displacement turbo inline six if they had wanted to.

Thanks for posting those facts, i get your point. For the record i dont believe those numbers, only because i personally have achieved different numbers.

The ZF8 is the best auto out right now. And the N20 is the best turbo 4 from germany.

You guys need to quiet it down in here. THIS is why we can't have nice guests over. Poor OP. All he wanted was to share some fun and excitement. You guys sobered him right up.

As I was saying OP, welcome to the (sometimes obnoxious) BMW family.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

However, all of that does not change the fact that, contrary to popular argument, BMW did not have no choice other than a four to meet CAFE requirements. If they had wanted to they could have done it with another inline six. But, as is clearly indicated, most U.S. consumers don't give a rat's ass.

Again, you seem to be hung up on number of cylinders or believing that you are more knowledgeable or make better decisions than BMWs engineers and marketing people.

BMW as you point out has a LOT of experience with 4-cylinder engines in Europe and the acceptance of these engines has improved dramatically in the US over the past decade with rising fuel prices as well as performance notions being trumped by reality when smaller turbo charged 4-cylinder engines often perform as well or better than bigger 6-cylinder variants while returning better fuel economy.

I would say that your argument that BMW coulda/shoulda/woulda made a 6 cylinder turbo charged engine is an emotional one.

Originally Posted by otonimus

F30 Sport Line: Test drove it, fell in love, bought it. Never owned a 3 before. Drove a few over the years, but never enough to really know them.

Therefore I'm not burdened with:

"The steering isn't responsive enough. Corners like a 73 Lincoln Town Car."

"Car is HUGE now!!! Why did they make it so big?! Handles like a wounded cow."

"Now it's a big fat luxury car for fat naive Americans. It's completely ruined."

"I can't believe they put a 4-cylinder turbo in it!!!!... ARRRRRRGH!!!!"... chick-clack... BLAM!!!... thud

"BMW WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!"

...

...

...


I love this fricking car. Wouldn't change a thing. Ignorance is bliss I guess.



(This is all in good fun folks. Much respect to the inline 6 and its loyal fans)

OK. Let's get this thread back on track!

BMW has been headed down the crapper ever since they went soft with the E21 after the 2002. They just lost their way.....40 years now, wandering in the desert!

Originally Posted by shicobico

You guys need to quiet it down in here. THIS is why we can't have nice guests over. Poor OP. All he wanted was to share some fun and excitement. You guys sobered him right up.

As I was saying OP, welcome to the (sometimes obnoxious) BMW family.

We can't have "Nice guests over"?

It's the E90 and E46 interlopers that are causing this forum to be a battlezone. For reasons unknown, these older BMW owners who supposedly have such vastly superior cars than ours feel the need to invade every thread, tell us how stupid we are, tell us a Cadillac is sportier, tell us we're driving a German Lexus. Why they don't stick to their forums where they can be bathed in the glory of owning an E46 or E90 is beyond me.

When it gets to the point where F30 owners and newbs are feeling intimidated and unwelcome, something has to change.

BJ

Originally Posted by tturedraider

However, all of that does not change the fact that, contrary to popular argument, BMW did not have no choice other than a four to meet CAFE requirements. If they had wanted to they could have done it with another inline six. But, as is clearly indicated, most U.S. consumers don't give a rat's ass.

That's asking a lot, since the 328i also has to be several thousand cheaper than a 335i, which may not have been possible with a small inline six turbo. Plus some weight savings with a four.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

We can't have "Nice guests over"?

It's the E90 and E46 interlopers that are causing this forum to be a battlezone. For reasons unknown, these older BMW owners who supposedly have such vastly superior cars than ours feel the need to invade every thread, tell us how stupid we are, tell us a Cadillac is sportier, tell us we're driving a German Lexus. Why they don't stick to their forums where they can be bathed in the glory of owning an E46 or E90 is beyond me.

When it gets to the point where F30 owners and newbs are feeling intimidated and unwelcome, something has to change.

BJ

We were here long before you, and will probably still be here when you've decided your F30 is too stiff and you trade up to a Rolls.

If you want to get along with BMW enthusiasts, stop telling them their 2 year old cars are junk.

Originally Posted by shicobico

You guys need to quiet it down in here. THIS is why we can't have nice guests over. Poor OP. All he wanted was to share some fun and excitement. You guys sobered him right up.

As I was saying OP, welcome to the (sometimes obnoxious) BMW family.

Thanks!

But this is really nothing... I've spent a lot of time in car audio forums like DIYMA... had to leave because of all the 20-year-old idiots who spend every paycheck on subwoofers and ground effect kits for their honda civics, and feel compelled to constantly say: "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG, NOOB. SUFFER MY CHILDISH INSULTS!"... now THAT is a troll fest. This is Masterpiece Theater in comparison.

I'm actually enjoying the discussion... at least it's based on something worth discussing, and not just bitter fanboy crap... let's keep it that way...

Don't know about the automatics, but I know for a fact that my F30 MT is getting significantly better gas mileage than the 1999 A4 2.8 and 2004 Mazda 6s (3.0 liter) I used to own, both V6 MT's... I also know it does a lot better than my friend's 2000 Z3 (automatic)

Originally Posted by Chris90

If you want to get along with BMW enthusiasts, stop telling them their 2 year old cars are junk.

+1

They're all awesome cars.

I still miss the V6's I used to own, and appreciate the I6's I've driven. There is something about the linear delivery of a 6 cylinder that I don't know if a turbo 4 will ever be able to emulate.

Are the 4-bangers faster? Dollar for dollar, yes. And it is my understanding that they get better gas mileage unless you really pound them hard (I could be wrong on that point, but I don't think so)...

But still... there is something about a good 6... my Mazda 6s 3.0 had a heck on an engine, particularly after the intake/software kit I added (real deal, not some generic K&N kit)... that thing just PULLED... faster than the N20? Certainly not... but... yeah... just something very nice about a 6 cylinder.

So do I regret getting the F30? I did consider getting a 2011 328i... not a chance

So much respect to ALL 3's... I dig every last one of them, going all the way back to a friend's '86 M3. Wow that car was fun.

Most people that bash the F30 say they don't like the swiss army knife utility of the car because it's doesn't excel at any 1 particular property. IMHO, that's what's great about the F30 because it's top 3 in all the important parameters and shows so much potential in customizing the important parameters the owner wants. On top of the utility of the car, they also managed to improve the gas mileage by 20-30% over the previous model with the 328i line, which is awesome compared to the E46 & E9x equivalents.

Examples:
1) If the suspension is too soft and not responsive enough; especially for agressive driving= remove DHP and get the BMW M Performance suspension + Sport/M-Sport anti-roll bars if you don't already have the trim.
2) If the auto start/stop annoys you= Have the dealer to program it off all the time.
3) The suspension isn't refined enough for a DD= get the DHP with both the adaptive suspension and variable steering; adds tons of refinement that the sport/m-sport doesn't have and improves upon the base, modern and luxury lines. Also essential for the awd models as they don't get the sport/m-sport lines.
4) Brakes on the 328i is not strong enough= upgrade to the BMW M Performance brakes; which adds 4 pots in the front and larger 1 pot in the rear.
5) The 8AT isn't responsive or good enough like the manual or the has too many gears= Get the 6MT
6) Eco Pro is a dog= Switch on the fly to comfort or sport/sport+
7) The tires grip are not enough= Upgrade to non-RFT tires, such as the Micheline PSS or PS2s for summer and PS2 A/S for all season.
8) Car costs too much= get a base model
9) Car doesn't have enough power= get the 335i or get a 328i with the BMS chip tune.
10) Car rolls too much= Upgrade to the Sport/M-Sport anti-roll bars if you have a base/modern/luxury line.
11) It's too heavy and large = Get the 1 series or wait for the 2 when it comes out.
12) I4T doesn't have a linear response compared to the I6= requires a bit of tuning but getting a modified twin-scroll (this was the best response to counter turbo lag) turbo using a smaller impeller for the initial stage then progressively larger with the final stage will resolve the linear feel, add in properly matched cams towards the transition point when the turbo runs out of air allowing the engine to breath more till redline will provide a linear and sustainable powerband from 1500rpms to redline (similar to the I6 power band in the older E46 & E9x engines). This will require $$$, a customized dyno tuned programmable ECU and map but it can be done.

Yes, BJ, not all E46 owners bash this forum. We do offer helpful and useful banter; objective of course

Originally Posted by av98

Yes, BJ, not all E46 owners bash this forum. We do offer helpful and useful banter; objective of course

Bravo.

You are my second-favorite poster on BF.

BJ

Originally Posted by av98

Most people that bash the F30 say they don't like the swiss army knife utility of the car because it's doesn't excel at any 1 particular property. IMHO, that's what's great about the F30 because it's top 3 in all the important parameters and shows so much potential in customizing the important parameters the owner wants. On top of the utility of the car, they also managed to improve the gas mileage by 20-30% over the previous model with the 328i line, which is awesome compared to the E46 & E9x equivalents.

Examples:
1) If the suspension is too soft and not responsive enough; especially for agressive driving= remove DHP and get the BMW M Performance suspension + Sport/M-Sport anti-roll bars if you don't already have the trim.
2) If the auto start/stop annoys you= Have the dealer to program it off all the time.
3) The suspension isn't refined enough for a DD= get the DHP with both the adaptive suspension and variable steering; adds tons of refinement that the sport/m-sport doesn't have and improves upon the base, modern and luxury lines. Also essential for the awd models as they don't get the sport/m-sport lines.
4) Brakes on the 328i is not strong enough= upgrade to the BMW M Performance brakes; which adds 4 pots in the front and larger 1 pot in the rear.
5) The 8AT isn't responsive or good enough like the manual or the has too many gears= Get the 6MT
6) Eco Pro is a dog= Switch on the fly to comfort or sport/sport+
7) The tires grip are not enough= Upgrade to non-RFT tires, such as the Micheline PSS or PS2s for summer and PS2 A/S for all season.
8) Car costs too much= get a base model
9) Car doesn't have enough power= get the 335i or get a 328i with the BMS chip tune.
10) Car rolls too much= Upgrade to the Sport/M-Sport anti-roll bars if you have a base/modern/luxury line.
11) It's too heavy and large = Get the 1 series or wait for the 2 when it comes out.
12) V4T doesn't have a linear response compared to the I6= requires a bit of tuning but getting a modified twin-scroll (this was the best response to counter turbo lag) turbo using a smaller impeller for the initial stage then progressively larger with the final stage will resolve the linear feel, add in properly matched cams towards the transition point when the turbo runs out of air allowing the engine to breath more till redline will provide a linear and sustainable powerband from 1500rpms to redline (similar to the I6 power band in the older E46 & E9x engines). This will require $$$, a customized dyno tuned programmable ECU and map but it can be done.

Yes, BJ, not all E46 owners bash this forum. We do offer helpful and useful banter; objective of course

This list should be part of the F30 FAQ for this forum .

Also, what about the lack of a full-size spare?

Originally Posted by tturedraider

OK. Let's get this thread back on track!

BMW has been headed down the crapper ever since they went soft with the E21 after the 2002. They just lost their way.....40 years now, wandering in the desert!

OP, agree with much of what you say, and ignorance can be blissful. I test drove 09s, 10s, and 11s but without extended time in those cars I cannot say the EPS is numb compared to the HPS. I also don't find the ride too comfortable. I just throw it sort mode and feel it tighten up and I just grin,grin,grin. I've been a fan of BMWs ever since my first time in a 2001 M3 but haven't owned one until recently. All my knowledge was theoretical not practical. So for me, the F30 is one of the best cars I've ever driven. Would I feel different if I came from an 07 335i instead of a 12 legacy gt? Probably. But I didn't so weeeeeee!!!

That said, and I'm not trolling, but I originally went for a 2013 328 sport line but was left unimpressed with the 4cyl. on the test drive. Turbo seemed laggy on takeoff. Acceleration was fun after 30 but for 48k, I felt like I should be blown away. (Hence why I went with the 335). First one I tested was an 07 and holy ****, I was speechless. Knew I could never own a 328 after that. Then I test drove a 2009 M3. Yikes. I almost got talked into a lease on a 2013 lime rock edition. Wife would have deballed me and tossed me in street if I brought that home. Glad I went with the F30 335i.

I've owned quite a few old Z cars with inline sixes. So smooth. They are a very special type of engine. However, I have become addicted to the anytime I want it power that comes from a turbo. I currently have a 2003 Audi A4 until my 328i arrives in a month. It has a measly 170hp. Yet, it's the only car I've ever owned that doesn't require downshifs when going up steep mountain roads at highway speeds. I love the car in every way. Even it's idiot proof, all wheel drive handling. What won me over to BMW was the extra 35hp over the current A4 and the addition of the M Sport line with estoril blue. The extra power and the rear wheel drive will be so much more fun than my old A4. The A4 doesn't offer any special colors or sport trim packages like the M Sport line. I can't wait to experience my new 328i.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I asked those questions, because I wanted to hear your thoughts. It turns out the reality is most new 3er buyers have no idea what an inline six motor is. They assume BMW uses V6s like all the others. A recent survey done by BMW of new 1er owners revealed that 80% of them assumed their car was fwd.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

ofcourse the ZF8 is going to better than the ZF6 in the same car/engine. But a ZF8 n20 will be better MPG than a N52 ZF8. there is no debate there, you just posted the facts lol

You said the improved fuel economy was a result of the ZF8 and not the N20 and thats simply not true. its a result of both, just look at the facts you posted

any assumption on your part is not considered fact, and thus should not even be mentioned in this conversation. Just stick to the facts that we have.

The ZF8 is one amazing transmission. I still can't get over how smooth it shifts. You'd think you were driving a twin clutch.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

The ZF8 is one amazing transmission. I still can't get over how smooth it shifts. You'd think you were driving a twin clutch.

I have been saying for a while that the best of the conventional "Slushbox" transmissions were very close in performance to DCTs and in many cases were smoother. The torque converters in the best of the ATs are locked up once the car is in motion and the truth of the matter is that torque converters are very good devices for smooth starts.

I think a lot of the appeal of the DCT is that people can convince themselves that "it isn't an automatic transmission" in spite of the fact that in terms of shift speeds, performance, and user interface, a state of the art AT is virtually indistinguisable from a DCT.

A while back Ms. Audio and I test drove a 335is with a DCT and a Jaguar XKR-S with a ZF 6 speed within a few days of each other. After we drove the Jag I told her that it had an AT while the BMW had a DCT and I explained the difference between the two types of transmissions. She told me she did not see much of a differnce and if she had to say which one she preferred it would have been the Jaguar. FWIW Ms. Audio is very adept at driving an MT. Although we have had a few AT Jaguars (XJ8 Sport, XJ8 VandenPlas and XKR) in Florida until the 335i (and now the 750) our NYC cars were always MTs.


CA

Edit: When I test drove the XKR-S the Jaguar representative who rode with me was Davy Jones (24 Hour LeMans winner, drove in the Indy 500, Nascar, etc,). He has been working with Jaguar for a number of years and is an instructor at test drive events. He is a casual acuaintance of mine and as we were driving the XKR-S he told me that he had recently driven a Lamborghini Adventador and he did not like the Lamborghini transmission at all and much preferred the Jaguar tranny (which is a ZF 6 speed similar to the Steptronic in the E9x 335i. Jaguar has programmed it differently for the XKR-S. He felt that the Lamborghini transmission (a single clutch 7 speed auto) shifted much too roughly and tended to upset the balance of the car.

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

This list should be part of the F30 FAQ for this forum .

Also, what about the lack of a full-size spare?

Unfortunately, this issue has been around since the E9x days. Best solution with non-RFTs is to buy a slime sealant or purchase the spare tire then just store it in your trunk.

http://www.bimmerzone.com/BMW_Perfor...T-E90-KIT.html