Motor Trend comparo: 1st Cadillac ATS, 2nd C350, 3rd 335i

Originally Posted by captainaudio

If it drove like it was on rails you weren't going fast enough.

CA

I knew I should of made that empty road a track. :P How do you get a mid-engined car to let go of the rear end? It's so balanced I don't think I'd have the skill to get the rear end to let go.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

I knew I should of made that empty road a track. :P How do you get a mid-engined car to let go of the rear end? It's so balanced I don't think I'd have the skill to get the rear end to let go.

Caymans are very well balanced and very neutral so your comment about feeling like it was on rails is very accurate unless you are driving the car at 10/10th. The limits on a Cayman are so high that driving at 10/10ths on the street is both irresponsible and suicidal.

It is possible to induce oversteer (hopefully MILD overteer ) in a mid engine car by trail braking. By "trailing" off the brakes as the car corners the car can be rotated. This technique is called tail brake rotation and requires practice in a controlled environment where the consequences of the inevitable spins that you will have while learning will not be catestrophic.



Trail Braking>>
The trail braking technique is an advanced braking technique that racing drivers use to go faster through corners. Instead of completing the braking sequence before the corner, you brake later and combine the last bit of braking with the turning-in part.>>
When turning into the corner while braking, the weight is still resting on the front tires. This increases front grip and decreases rear grip, so that you can induce a little more rear slip angle than front slip angle. (oversteer)>>
This braking technique has several advantages:>>
You can brake later.>>
Normally you’d already be going steady on the throttle, but since you are still on the brakes front to rear weight balance is easier to adjust.>>
Due to braking, the weight shifts forward so front grip increases, allowing you to turn harder into the corner.>>
Rather than relying on the steering you can brake your way into the corner. You rotate the back-end of the car (oversteer) so that you will have to steer less when going in, and coming out of the corner.>>
Trail braking requires very precise brake balance control and is definitely not a braking technique for the novice. Due to the high speed it’s really dangerous to practice. Mistakes will immediately be punished, usually with serious consequences.>>

CA

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

I knew I should of made that empty road a track. :P How do you get a mid-engined car to let go of the rear end? It's so balanced I don't think I'd have the skill to get the rear end to let go.

Very easy, add water, over correct then you get snap oversteer.

Actually a fade brake or standard pop clutch action will loosen any rear end for any car.

Originally Posted by Buildbright

We can post magazine reviews all day long that say your wrong but if really want to know, take your butt to a track or stoplight. I like the Camaro but its not blowing the doors off a F30 335i stock for stock. They are dead even, now a new GT Mustang now that would blow the doors off your 6.2 litter camaro with its small by comparison 302.

Ok here you go.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...trumented-test
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...5i_first_test/

Why not use the same magazine for the two cars? Why post the fastest time for the 335 and slowest for the SS (lol the SS is still faster after 0-60 on its WORST test) ?

They are NOT dead even. You can chose to ignore facts but it won't change them. I don't like the Camaro SS at all but it is a much faster vehicle then the F30 335 whether you like it or not.

C & D

Camaro SS
0-60 4.6 sec
1/4 mile 13.0 @ 111 mph
0-130 18.0 sec

BMW 335i (F30)
0-60 5.3 sec
1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 mph

BMW 335 (E90)
0-60 4.8 secs
1/4 mile 13.6 @ 106 mph
0-130 20.7 secs

Lightning lap times:

Camaro SS - 3:09.5
BMW M3 - 3:05.4
BMW 135i - 3:13.7
2007 BMW 335i Coupe (N54 which is faster than the N55 F30) - 3:10.5
Cadillac CTS-V - 3:04.0
Oh and Cobalt SS - 3:13.5

MT

2013 Camaro SS 1LE
0-60 4.3 secs
1/4 mile 12.7 @ 111 mph

2012 F30 335i
0-60 4.7 secs
1/4 mile 13.3 @ 103.9 mph

Insideline

2010 E90 BMW 335 (did not see a test for the F30)
0-60 5.2 secs
1/4 mile 13.4 @ 103.5

2010 Camaro SS
0-60 5.1 secs
1/4 mile 13.1 @ 110.4

While you can obtain a slightly different 0-60 time depending on traction, tires used, weather conditions, driver skill and so on, one thing will almost always stay very consistent which is the trap speed. It is a good indication of power and there is significant difference between the two vehicles. So you can spin it however you want in favor of the 335 but the facts are that the SS is a much quicker vehicle.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I drove up from SE FL to PA yesterday on I-95 N. I made a decent time driving straight through and going 1,126 miles in 16 hours and 45 minutes in my Tahoe. The trip is usually very boring with mostly trucks, and the elderly driving mobile homes, Toyotas, Cadillacs and small SUVs. This trip however, I saw some things on the road that were more interesting.

There must be a car show somewhere this weekend as I passed numerous exotic car carrier trucks like Reliable and etc., and many show cars in tow like hot rods, and I saw a 427 Cobra in blue with white racing stripes being towed by a matching pick up truck.

I stopped at a rest stop in S. Carolina, and while taking my dog for a walk, I saw an Acura NSX parked next to a Ferrari Testarossa. Both owners were sleeping in their front seats so I didn't have the opportunity to closely check out their cars. I have not seen an NSX on the road in years.

I saw four Audi car carriers loaded with sedans heading north from Florida. I wonder what port they enter down there to deliver as far north as S. Caolina? I love how each car has a white car cover on them with Audi logos.

I saw two BMW car carriers loaded with SUVs in S. Caolina. They only had the white shrink wrap on the top of the new vehicles. I would not want the front SUV that had 1/3rd of it's rear end hanging off over the truck cab and begging for road debris.

From Georgia through N Carolina, I saw 2 newer 7 Series BMWs with Canadian tags, A Porsche Panamera, 4 Porsche Carreras including 2 cabriolets, 2 Corvettes, 3 F30 sedans (two driven by older women and one by a college aged female), 5-6 E90 BMWs, and an E46 M3 convertible in Georgia driven by an attractive women appearing to be in her mid 40's and driving like she owned the road (I immediately fell in love!)

Then I'm in S. Carolina with my cruise set at 77 MPH in a 70 MPH speed zone and passing a truck. I look in my rear view mirror and I see a car snaking between cars and going in excess of 100 MPH. I'm about 2/3rds passed the truck and he's on my rear and flashing his high beams. I finish passing and go into the right lane and he speeds by. It was a black Cadillac CTS coupe (I don't think it was a CTS-V) driven by a guy looking to be about 30. Later, I'm entering Virginia and see flashing police lights up the road. I pass and see they had nailed the Cadillac and had the driver facing his car with his hands on the hood. I laughed my ass off.

Yeah if you speed like that in the Old Dominion, you're not going to have a good time.

Probably had a radar detector too.

-- on the Camaro SS point. Yeah it pulls like crazy- even with the automatic. I cannot imagine what a ZL1 would be like to drive. But- its like driving in a cave. And the trunk was a joke. And the automatic wasn't nearly as nice as the sport auto in the 335i.

Not sure many people are cross shopping Camaro SS vs BMW 335's, well other than me. But I'm weird like that.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

It is possible to induce oversteer (hopefully MILD overteer ) in a mid engine car by trail braking. By "trailing" off the brakes as the car corners the car can be rotated.

Oh, you can do it on a very front heavy FWD car as well. In my very distant youth, I have done it with my econocar, a couple of times unintentionally (inherently heavily understeering cars are far more forgiving in those situations ). A slight steering flick can help things get going.

Originally Posted by Highmodulus

Not sure many people are cross shopping Camaro SS vs BMW 335's, well other than me. But I'm weird like that.

Camaro SS is a POS for a track enthusiast. Camaro ZL1 however is drool worthy.

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

Why not use the same magazine for the two cars? Why post the fastest time for the 335 and slowest for the SS (lol the SS is still faster after 0-60 on its WORST test) ?

They are NOT dead even. You can chose to ignore facts but it won't change them. I don't like the Camaro SS at all but it is a much faster vehicle then the F30 335 whether you like it or not.

C & D

Camaro SS
0-60 4.6 sec
1/4 mile 13.0 @ 111 mph
0-130 18.0 sec

BMW 335i (F30)
0-60 5.3 sec
1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 mph

BMW 335 (E90)
0-60 4.8 secs
1/4 mile 13.6 @ 106 mph
0-130 20.7 secs

Lightning lap times:

Camaro SS - 3:09.5
BMW M3 - 3:05.4
BMW 135i - 3:13.7
2007 BMW 335i Coupe (N54 which is faster than the N55 F30) - 3:10.5 Wrong Again
Cadillac CTS-V - 3:04.0
Oh and Cobalt SS - 3:13.5

MT

2013 Camaro SS 1LE
0-60 4.3 secs
1/4 mile 12.7 @ 111 mph

2012 F30 335i
0-60 4.7 secs
1/4 mile 13.3 @ 103.9 mph

Insideline

2010 E90 BMW 335 (did not see a test for the F30) No F30 in 2010
0-60 5.2 secs
1/4 mile 13.4 @ 103.5

2010 Camaro SS
0-60 5.1 secs
1/4 mile 13.1 @ 110.4

While you can obtain a slightly different 0-60 time depending on traction, tires used, weather conditions, driver skill and so on, one thing will almost always stay very consistent which is the trap speed. It is a good indication of power and there is significant difference between the two vehicles. So you can spin it however you want in favor of the 335 but the facts are that the SS is a much quicker vehicle.

Sorry bud you must have not read the article link.

"Our mere automatic 2012 335i, down a turbo and supposedly 20 horsepower and 32 lb-ft, reached 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.3 sec at 103.9 mph. That's right on pace with a Camaro SS, assuming it's driven well."

Your 1LE is a performance package btw. Spend more time actually driving the cars then reading about them you might know the Camaro to get those times has all traction aids turned off which on the street most drivers will spin like crazy. Unlike the 335i which will almost dead hook. The better driver will win the race. The cars are almost dead even even with the crappy BMW run flats.

Keep making smiley faces on your posts it seems to be what your good at.

Originally Posted by Buildbright

Sorry bud you must have not read the article link.

"Our mere automatic 2012 335i, down a turbo and supposedly 20 horsepower and 32 lb-ft, reached 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.3 sec at 103.9 mph. That's right on pace with a Camaro SS, assuming it's driven well."

Your 1LE is a performance package btw. Spend more time actually driving the cars then reading about them you might know the Camaro to get those times has all traction aids turned off which on the street most drivers will spin like crazy. Unlike the 335i which will almost dead hook. The better driver will win the race. The cars are almost dead even even with the crappy BMW run flats.

Keep making smiley faces on your posts it seems to be what your good at.

Owned him. lol.

As Chris90 indicated earlier, after several reviews complained about the ATS 2.0T manual being notchy, and not able to reach 60 in second gear, GM stopped delivery of all the 2.0T for fixes. Based on the initial user review after the fixes, it appears the fixes were for real.

It will be interesting to see if MT will try to do another comparo, since it was MT reported the news that GM stopped all 2.0T shipment for the fix. Sounded to me GM is very serious about this.

We are staying at the Boca Raton Resort and Club this month. The valets tend to park the fanciest cars in front of the main entrance. Tonight there were two Bentley Continentals (1 coupe 1 convertible) a Ferrari California Convertible, a Maserati GT Convertible, 2 S Class Mercedes, an E93 (328i) and a Cadillac CTS.

Haven't seen either an F30 or an ATS yet.

CA

The problem with this comparo is it lacks objectivity. I have not driven the ATS yet but there is nothing special about the 3.6l engine. There are only two top of the line engines that matter in this class, the N55 and the Audi S4. Not necessarily because of the amount of power but the tq and the broad range in which it's available. In my X5, which is almost 5000lbs, the N55 can do 80mph at less than 2000 rpm and if I punch it responds in an instant, thanks to the 8 speed ZF transmission, same as the F30. Lets not forget that the transmission in the ATS has been determined to be inferior to the ZF transmission.

What I also find odd is the placement of the c350 above the f30, something I have never seen before.

I still have a G 37, looking to get a 335i so I would be the target audience for the ATS, after all I can save a bit by getting the ATS. However I would rather wait for the next G37 than get the ATS. After having driven all offerings of the 335i and the S4, it's tough to pass these two up.

While procrastinating with some work stuff, I came across a review by this same Jonny Lieberman comparing the C250 to the 328i that reduces his credibility quite a bit. Jump to 4:15 of the video where he talks about how BMW "smartly stuck with hydraulic assist" for the steering of the 2012 model. Did I miss something? Did the switch occur in 2013? Was there some wrong info out there for a while?

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

While procrastinating with some work stuff, I came across a review by this same Jonny Lieberman comparing the C250 to the 328i that reduces his credibility quite a bit. Jump to 4:15 of the video where he talks about how BMW "smartly stuck with hydraulic assist" for the steering of the 2012 model. Did I miss something? Did the switch occur in 2013? Was there some wrong info out there for a while?

I agree but I make it a rule not to trust magazine journalism. It's based on advertising dollars and selling subscriptions not truth. It's mostly entertainment, i bet most of the writers know less about cars then most of the members on this fourm.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

While procrastinating with some work stuff, I came across a review by this same Jonny Lieberman comparing the C250 to the 328i that reduces his credibility quite a bit. Jump to 4:15 of the video where he talks about how BMW "smartly stuck with hydraulic assist" for the steering of the 2012 model. Did I miss something? Did the switch occur in 2013? Was there some wrong info out there for a while?

I don't think he was being serious in this comparo, this to me was an advert for Cadillac. There is no review I have seen that puts the C350 ahead of the 335i. S4 yes but not the C350.

If several reviews can be found that put the C350 ahead of the 3er then I will stand corrected and I will consider this review to be credible, until then this to me is an advertisement. FYI this guy,Lieberman, LUVs the CTS-V

Originally Posted by g37to335i

Lets not forget that the transmission in the ATS has been determined to be inferior to the ZF transmission.

The ATS in the above comparo has a 6spd ZF transmission.

Speaking of 6spd vs. 8spd, I can't say yet whether 8spd is definitely superior than 6spd. I drive in manual mode most of the time, I don't know if 8spd will be too busy in manual mode. Next time when I do another comparison test drive, will try to see how manual shifting with the 8spd feels.

One thing I don't quite like the design of the new auto shifter in BMW, it is for you to look at, not to play with.

Originally Posted by dtc100

The ATS in the above comparo has a 6spd ZF transmission.

Speaking of 6spd vs. 8spd, I can't say yet whether 8spd is definitely superior than 6spd. I drive in manual mode most of the time, I don't know if 8spd will be too busy in manual mode. Next time when I do another comparison test drive, will try to see how manual shifting with the 8spd feels.

One thing I don't quite like the design of the new auto shifter in BMW, it is for you to look at, not to play with.

I would be interested in hearing from those who have had both of the transmissions to see which ones operate better and smoother. Without having any personal experience, I am thinking the 8 speed would shift too often and be a PITA?

Originally Posted by captainaudio

We are staying at the Boca Raton Resort and Club this month. The valets tend to park the fanciest cars in front of the main entrance. Tonight there were two Bentley Continentals (1 coupe 1 convertible) a Ferrari California Convertible, a Maserati GT Convertible, 2 S Class Mercedes, an E93 (328i) and a Cadillac CTS.

Haven't seen either an F30 or an ATS yet.

CA

I love being able to see cars like those on the road after reading about them in some magazine. I didn't see many exotics on the road in Jupiter when I was there until this week. Maybe it's too soon in the season?

Originally Posted by Buildbright

I agree but I make it a rule not to trust magazine journalism. It's based on advertising dollars and selling subscriptions not truth. It's mostly entertainment, i bet most of the writers know less about cars then most of the members on this fourm.

Without a doubt. He didn't even seem aware that the dash trim can be different from what he got.

Originally Posted by beden1

I would be interested in hearing from those who have had both of the transmissions to see which ones operate better and smoother. Without having any personal experience, I am thinking the 8 speed would shift too often and be a PITA?

In the X5, the transmission is smooth and is not a PITA. I highly doubt it would be any different in the F30. I would not even worry about the transmission if in the market for an F30, it does everything right. GM is going to ditch the 6 speed for a 7 speed and then the 8 speed in the coming years.

I have read so many articles that rave about how the ATS throttle blips on down shifts, we have had this in the G37 and G35 since 2007. When you read about it it's as if this is the first time it's been applied in this segment. Color me unimpressed

Originally Posted by Buildbright

I agree but I make it a rule not to trust magazine journalism. It's based on advertising dollars and selling subscriptions not truth. It's mostly entertainment, i bet most of the writers know less about cars then most of the members on this fourm.

+1. Exactly.

ATS is getting an 8 spd auto next year, supposedly.

Getting back to the original review from MT. First of all any guy that gets excited because of a red seat belt is disqualified.

Second not one thing was mentioned on the automatic transmission. The reason I say this is because I had a 2009 C350 AMG package and yes I understand they engine is a lot more powerful but the 7-speed transmission is basically the same. That transmission when compared to the 8-speed BMW is TRASH. Doesn't shift as fast, searches on down sifting when pushed hard, bogus down on when asked by the driver for immediate speed. Again this guy not mentioning one thing about the transmission tells me he is an idiot. Notice I am not saying one thing about the ATS since I have never driven the car

Also lets talk about entire space. The C350 have very little when compared to the BMW, and another thing a about this moron, if you are going to try and compare an AMG styled C350 you should be comparing it to a M-packaged 335i. And in terms of package it similarly to a Mercedes and you will see you are within a couple of thousand of it.

Now driving, for my money my 2013 335i Sport with the adaptive package is the best 4 door sedan I have ever owned. On sport setting you have just the right amount of road feel, totally controllable, super fun to drive and FAST while being comfortable at the same time. Notice this guy starts out with the 335i saying that its such a great car to drive and then comes back with its vague, something artificial etc. Sorry its either a great car to drive or it sucks dude, it can't be both. That wish washy statement along should tell you this guy should tend a 7-11 store and leave the driving critic to people that know something about cars.

Last statement I want to make here is the MT. This transmission can't be the same that I had in my 2007 328i. Its incredibly direct, light, so easy to use its almost like having a automatic. The only other MT transmission I have driven that compares to this one is the 2010 Boxster S and at the time I thought everyone should just copy their MT transmissions. Who know maybe BMW did.

Originally Posted by Buildbright

Sorry bud you must have not read the article link.

"Our mere automatic 2012 335i, down a turbo and supposedly 20 horsepower and 32 lb-ft, reached 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.3 sec at 103.9 mph. That's right on pace with a Camaro SS, assuming it's driven well."

Your 1LE is a performance package btw. Spend more time actually driving the cars then reading about them you might know the Camaro to get those times has all traction aids turned off which on the street most drivers will spin like crazy. Unlike the 335i which will almost dead hook. The better driver will win the race. The cars are almost dead even even with the crappy BMW run flats.

Keep making smiley faces on your posts it seems to be what your good at.

Look at the lap times, the SS is faster than a N54 335i Coupe, M Coupe and 135i. Look at the trap speed on every test (111mph vs 103mph LOL), not even close but thanks for playing. Oh here is the link for the 335 lap time since you highlighted it to be wrong :
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...i-coupe-page-6
and of course there was no F30 in 2010, I know that, I posted the E90 results since both cars are N55 and I could not find one for the F30 from that magazine.

Try again.