ECS brake rotors for E8X: MADE IN …CHINA !!!

Hi folks,

This is to share my personal experience with the ECS products, and the (not so) little things that you discover only if you buy something from these apparently cool guys in Wadsworth, OH.

Many 135i owners are looking for the same thing: a good set of drilled rotors to replace the stock, boring BMW plain discs. To find something good on the market without going for hyper-expansive BBK kits (like the Brembo racing) or staying on the BMW Performance line (expansive and hard to find for the rear axle), is definitely not an easy task. Surfing the internet I run into the ECS products, and God dammit….they got them! The specs are amazing:

• Front: 2-piece semi-floating construction, anodized Aluminum hats, gray cast iron rings, heat treated, drilled and slotted, directional veins – only $ 450 per pair!
• Rear: drilled and slotted, anti-rust treatment – only $ 136 per pair!

Considering that they are a bolt-on mod, it sounded an exceptional chance to secure a perfect set for a very good price. In addition to this, ECS highlights the high quality of their products with lots of proud: "superior performance", "real world benefits" and "never compromises" are slogans spread all over the range descriptions, and work well in giving you the confidence you are looking for.

Therefore, I bought them.

The surprise arrives when you open the box: you discover that the front pair is manufactured in Taiwan, and the rear in China!!! Have a look to the invoice I have attached if you don't believe me.

Jesus, I live one hundred miles from the German border and I ended up buying Chinese rotors in the US (and paid 200+ Dollars to have them shipped to Europe)! This is not a joke, guys.

After the purchase (unfortunately) I immediately contacted the ECS online customer support asking for clarifications; the first answer was totally inconsistent, since they stated that their rotors are manufactured in the US. Have a look to the exchange we had on this first try (attached).

What should I derive from this? At best, not all ECS people seem not to know the true story about the products they sell.

Of course, I didn't stop here. The following is the second run of email exchange with their sales department; as you can see I tried to be gentle but asked very precise questions at the same time:

My question:
"Dear Sir/Madam,
looking at your brake rotors for my BMW 135i (ES#2550968 and ES#2539490), I noticed that no DOT or TUV approval is mentioned.
Being brake parts very important for vehicle safety, I wonder what quality standard is applied in producing those discs.
Can you please explain where those rotors are manufactured, and what quality check they have to pass before being sold?
Best regards"

ECS answer:
"Thank you for your interest for additional information regarding ES#2550968 and ES#2539490.
DOT and TUV approval
All rotors sold by ECS Tuning are compliant with DOT standards.
Rotor Manufacturing
ECS Tuning GEOMET rotor blanks are sourced domestically from vendors who have worldwide manufacturing operations. Many of the rotor blanks originate from Italy, Turkey, Brazil and Asia but each part number may have a different country of origin. Engineering design, machine work and coating take place in the United States through our preferred manufacturing partners.
Quality Control
ECS Tuning is dedicated to selling safe, reliable and high performing products. For this reason, all ECS Tuning products are subject to a Quality Inspection process to ensure we are selling products that live up to these high expectations.
Thank you"

My question:
"Hi,
thanks for the reply.
You mention the GEOMET rotors only. Is this valid also for the 2-piece rotors?
Best regards"

ECS answer:
"Correct. This is a valid statement for both GEOMET and the ECS 2-Piece rotor with the exception of the coating. The 2-Piece rotors are not coated as the GEOMET rotors are.
Thanks"

In this second round they admit that rotors arrive from various countries and, funny enough, they list "Asia" instead of being more precise and write down that they buy from China and Taiwan.

I'm sorry guys, but there is no check that you can do in house to replace the quality control that has to be made in the production lines that actually manufacture the rotors. This is done (if ever) in the Chineese or Taiwanese plant. That's it. Then you can perform a very good drilling or a superior coating in the US, but this will be done on a piece of metal which has been possibly subject to uncontrolled heat treatments, uncertain forming and unknown handling; and this piece of metal will take soon the shape of your rotor.

But let's have a look to the third attempt to communicate with them, to show you there is no way to convince them that this information is not the kind of thing you can forget in the product description:

My question:
"Dear ECS support,
it is with disappointment that I write this email.
I just received my rotors and discovered that they are manufactured in China and Taiwan; not exactly great for a company which claims "superior performance", "real world benefits" and "never compromises" for its products.
I will do my best to inform the tuners and enthusiast community about this to the maximum extent possible. People should know what you actually sell.
With regards"

ECS answer:
"Thanks for writing. Yes, you are correct that some of our products are manufactured in countries across the world, which should be of no surprise as many companies have products manufactured in countries throughout the world. We will tell our customers where any product is manufactured if he or she asks. If you were concerned with the manufacturing location of the products, we may only recommend that you contact a seller with those inquiries in the future.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask"

My question:
"Dear ECS support,
yes, nowadays outsourcing is normal, and I would not mind if you procure items from countries with a proven record of quality in automotive products like Germany or Italy.
I do mind if your providers are located in China and Taiwan, and it is useless to say why. We are not dealing with spoilers or floor mats. We are talking about semi-floating brakes of a 170+ mph car.
Since you seem to be very confident in what you say, you won't mind if I spread this information around, won't you?
Best regards"

ECS answer:
"As we have mentioned before, we will tell any customer where our products are made if he or she asks. If the country of origin was a concern of yours, than you should and could have asked the question prior to submitting the order. If this is that big of a concern for you, than return them for a refund.
Let us know what you want to do. Thanks!"


So, ECS position is very clear: they feel like where the rotors are manufactured is not important, the only relevant thing is where they are machined or coated, and they will disclose this information only upon request. Ah, ah, you prefer not to write "China" or "Taiwan" in your site, eh? If this is not a critical issue, I wonder why not being really transparent and write down all the info the (potential) buyers need to conclude on the product.

Of course, I'm not going to put their rotors on my car, neither to ship them bak to the US at my own expenses (225 USD...), but you can understand my disappointment when discovering that my beloved trust in the quality of the US products and in the commitment of the US customer care has not been confirmed this time.
Only after, I discovered that ECS was known already for selling cheap Chinese-made stuff, especially for Audi and Volkswagen: just google ECS+China, scroll 2 or 3 pages, and you may discover also which are their suppliers in that countries. Unfortunately, I made this search too late.

Take your own conclusions, guys. From my point of view, the more I buy around, the more I see that the motto "You got what you paid for" is tremendously true.

Cheers

annalisa,

Situation:

· Action: After you purchased and received your order of ECS GEOMET® Rotors and ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors you contacted multiple departments here at ECS Tuning asking the same questions concerning specific details regarding our rotor manufacturing.

o Result: ECS Tuning responded to all inquiries in a timely and professional manner.

· Action: You brought to ECS Tuning's attention that you were given incorrect information about the Country of Origin of a product.

o Result: We quickly clarified to you that not all ECS rotors are manufactured in the United States. Additional training has since been performed with our staff to address any further confusion on this topic.

· Action: You contacted our Customer Service department expressing your unhappiness with your purchase.

o Result: Our Customer Service department offered you a refund if you are not satisfied with the product in which you received.

§ Result: You declined and threatened to go on the forums with this information. In our opinion we have nothing to hide so here we are…......

Summary:

We do apologize that the rotors do not meet your Country of Origin expectations but we can assure you that you would be more than pleased with their performance. We sell our rotors all over the world and have received a lot of praise and positive reviews on both their performance and cosmetics



ECS GEOMET® Rotors

Our ECS GEOMET® Rotor blanks are sourced domestically from vendors who have worldwide manufacturing operations. A majority of our rotor blanks originate from Italy, Turkey, Brazil, Asia, Mexico among others, but each part number may have a different country of origin. The rotors are designed in house by our Research & Development department and machine work / GEOMET® coating are preformed to our specification in the United States through our preferred manufacturing partners.



ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors

Our ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors are engineered by our Research & Development department and manufactured to our specifications in both the United States (95% of our applications) and Taiwan (5% of our applications) depending on the application. We have designed our ECS Tuning 2-Piece rotor line to include the features of a much more expensive multi-piece rotor at an affordable price point. Countless hours of engineering, testing and quality control measures were invested into this product line to ensure the ECS Tuning product goals were accomplished.



Country of Origin of Website

In response to your request that we list the Country of Origin on all products, we will definitely take this suggestion into consideration. However, we are in compliance with all Federal Trade Commission regulations and take this topic very seriously. If any customers would like additional information on the origins of a product, please contact our Sales Department at 800.924.5172.



Any further questions can be directed to us via PM or contact our Customer Service Department at 800.924.5172.



Happy Braking!

Ecs that is a stand up answer. I would have no issues putting those rotors on my car.

Now give the guy a prepaid shipping label and let's move on down the field. Im still a customer...Lol....my tongue is firmly planted in cheek for the shipping label...

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

annalisa,
Situation:
• Action: After you purchased and received your order of ECS GEOMET® Rotors and ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors you contacted multiple departments here at ECS Tuning asking the same questions concerning specific details regarding our rotor manufacturing.
o Result: ECS Tuning responded to all inquiries in a timely and professional manner.

Absolutely true; the efficiency of your customer service is not under question

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

• Action: You brought to ECS Tuning’s attention that you were given incorrect information about the Country of Origin of a product.
o Result: We quickly clarified to you that not all ECS rotors are manufactured in the United States. Additional training has since been performed with our staff to address any further confusion on this topic.

Very good, there is always room for improvement

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

• Action: You contacted our Customer Service department expressing your unhappiness with your purchase.
o Result: Our Customer Service department offered you a refund if you are not satisfied with the product in which you received.
§ Result: You declined

To return the set at my own expenses doesn't sound a real solution to me; may I recall that I paid 225 USD for the shipping?

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

and threatened to go on the forums with this information. In our opinion we have nothing to hide so here we are….

Not true, dear. The scope is not threaten anybody, but to exchange opinions with other users, inform and being informed. I don't have anything to hide as well.

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

Summary:
We do apologize that the rotors do not meet your Country of Origin expectations but we can assure you that you would be more than pleased with their performance. We sell our rotors all over the world and have received a lot of praise and positive reviews on both their performance and cosmetics

Maybe you missed it, but there isn't a single word here (and elsewhere) about the performance of your rotors. Simply this is not the topic. The issue is the level of information and the quality control.

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

ECS GEOMET® Rotors
Our ECS GEOMET® Rotor blanks are sourced domestically from vendors who have worldwide manufacturing operations. A majority of our rotor blanks originate from Italy, Turkey, Brazil, Asia, Mexico among others, but each part number may have a different country of origin. The rotors are designed in house by our Research & Development department and machine work / GEOMET® coating are preformed to our specification in the United States through our preferred manufacturing partners.
ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors
Our ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors are engineered by our Research & Development department and manufactured to our specifications in both the United States (95% of our applications) and Taiwan (5% of our applications) depending on the application. We have designed our ECS Tuning 2-Piece rotor line to include the features of a much more expensive multi-piece rotor at an affordable price point. Countless hours of engineering, testing and quality control measures were invested into this product line to ensure the ECS Tuning product goals were accomplished.

This is already a bit more specific than what is currently in your description; if you really are going to include what you list in the following lines (Country of Origin of Website), I think this would solve the issue, from my point of view.
Thanks for your contribution, it is always good to have both the points of view in the same place.

Happy machining, drilling and coating...

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

Country of Origin of Website
In response to your request that we list the Country of Origin on all products, we will definitely take this suggestion into consideration. However, we are in compliance with all Federal Trade Commission regulations and take this topic very seriously. If any customers would like additional information on the origins of a product, please contact our Sales Department at 800.924.5172.
Any further questions can be directed to us via PM or contact our Customer Service Department at 800.924.5172.
Happy Braking!

.....Why did you have to buy from ECS in the USA anyway ? You're in Netherlands, you're telling me they don't have cross drilled rotors there or in Europe. BTW, just about every Brake company makes brakes and brake parts in Asia or other countries due to cheap labor.

Originally Posted by Bartman619

.....Why did you have to buy from ECS in the USA anyway ? You're in Netherlands, you're telling me they don't have cross drilled rotors there or in Europe. BTW, just about every Brake company makes brakes and brake parts in Asia or other countries due to cheap labor.

...and the majority of PC components and systems, especially memory chips and hard drives are manufactured in China and Taiwan. There are plenty of ISO 9001 certified operations in that part of the world.

Originally Posted by Bartman619

.....Why did you have to buy from ECS in the USA anyway ? You're in Netherlands, you're telling me they don't have cross drilled rotors there or in Europe.

Of course, many other options are available (e.g., the BMW Performance rotors), but to say the truth no kit offers the same specs/price ratio and is available for both front and rear from the same vendor. Brembo BBK (or similar kits) was not an option due to the cost (in excess of 3000 dollars). The favourable exchange ratio USD/EUR had a role, too. And, finally, I've experienced always exceptional results with "made in USA" stuff.

Just to reiterate some points here:

Our 2-piece rotors are manufactured largely in the United States, with some applications being manufactured in Taiwan. Regardless of manufacturing location, our rotors are designed in-house by the engineers in our Research & Development Department. We are dedicated to the quality of our product line and invests countless hours of engineering, testing, and quality control to ensure our products meet our standards.

Give our 2-piece rotors a try for yourself!

E82 135i | E88 135i | E46 M3

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

Our 2-piece rotors are manufactured largely in the United States, with some applications being manufactured in Taiwan.

Ok, I was the unlucky guy who took the taiwanese...

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

Regardless of manufacturing location, our rotors are designed in-house by the engineers in our Research & Development Department.

Super! But excellent engineering can be easily blown away by inconsistent manufacturing

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

We are dedicated to the quality of our product line and invests countless hours of engineering, testing, and quality control to ensure our products meet our standards.

It is so easy, then: please explain more in detail what you actually do once you receive the rotor blanks from wherever outside the US:

• how do you check that the correct alloy has been used
• how do you ensure that correct forming has been performed in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever foundry
• how do you verify that the proper heat treatment has been applied in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever plant
• how do you check that blanks have been handled properly
• and so on...

As you can see, it'a all about details.
Answer to this and, be sure, I will be more than happy

I've spent the past decade of my career engineering products in the US that are manufactured in China. In all honesty, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. China and Taiwan definitely have a reputation of making crap, but western companies sourcing product there can get top notch metal castings if they find the right suppliers and hold them to strict guidelines.

A brake rotor is little more than a hunk of cast iron. Any company that manufactures such a simple product in a country with low labor rates is only being competitive and pragmatic. In fact, you'd likely be mortified to learn how many components in your BMW were born in Asia.

Take a deep breath, relax and open your toolbox. ECS has a good reputation because they only sell good quality products.

Originally Posted by mr_bean

China and Taiwan definitely have a reputation of making crap, but western companies sourcing product there can get top notch metal castings if they find the right suppliers and hold them to strict guidelines.

While I could accept such a big "if" when dealing with other parts (many on my bmw as you say), I'm definitely not prone to test this with brakes.

As I said, it is a big "if". In lack of any certificate, of any evidence of a good (not excellent, just good) quality control, should I bet my car on generic statements like "we do many controls and commit to do our best"?

I'm sorry, no. Just my personal opinion, though.

Originally Posted by mr_bean

ECS has a good reputation because they only sell good quality products.

I don't think this will be in any way ruined by this thread. We're just exchanging points of view.

Originally Posted by mr_bean

I've spent the past decade of my career engineering products in the US that are manufactured in China. In all honesty, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. China and Taiwan definitely have a reputation of making crap, but western companies sourcing product there can get top notch metal castings if they find the right suppliers and hold them to strict guidelines.

A brake rotor is little more than a hunk of cast iron. Any company that manufactures such a simple product in a country with low labor rates is only being competitive and pragmatic. In fact, you'd likely be mortified to learn how many components in your BMW were born in Asia. .

+1

LOL!! I had to read this thread as I work in the autoparts industry. I get a good laugh when I see "anal' people who insist on getting "quality parts" and yet dispises parts parts made in "China".

I mean... seriously... this isn't "fine jewerly" or "precision instruments" we are talking about... It is JUST IRON ORE" dude!!

Have you looked at where the rotors are made at from Brembo or OE BMW ?? hint: Turkey, China, Mexico... they are all the same *****t...

Originally Posted by beewang

I mean... seriously... this isn't "fine jewerly" or "precision instruments" we are talking about... It is JUST IRON ORE" dude!!

Good luck then...

Originally Posted by beewang

Have you looked at where the rotors are made at from Brembo or OE BMW ?? hint: Turkey, China, Mexico... they are all the same *****t...

Yes, Brembo, AP, Nissin brakes made in China, Brazil, ect IN BREMBO, AP, NISSIN FACTORIES POPULATED BY BREMBO, AP, NISSIN RESIDENTS (AT LEAST) WICH IMPLEMENT BREMBO, AP, NISSIN PROCEDURES (the only difference being the cost of this)

Quite a big difference with ECS, don't you think so?

PS
Funny to see people starting to copy & paste pieces of cvs in the post..."15 years expierence" or "green belt engineer" or "proven experience in QC"
Believe me, I'm going to hear the opinion even if you sell ice-creams.
This is (supposed to be) an open, free place for gentle people

Originally Posted by annalisa

...
Yes, Brembo, AP, Nissin brakes made in China, Brazil, ect IN BREMBO, AP, NISSIN FACTORIES POPULATED BY BREMBO, AP, NISSIN RESIDENTS (AT LEAST) WICH IMPLEMENT BREMBO, AP, NISSIN PROCEDURES (the only difference being the cost of this)

Quite a big difference with ECS, don't you think so?...

No.. I don't think so.. but that may be I work in the industry and I know a thing or 2 more than the avg. bear on this subject matter. What ECS provided you is a OE replacement rotors. There are 2 factors at play here with respect to the rotors they provided you:

1) Their company's name and reputation is on the line. It means that they won't easily sell "Cheap Cr@ppy" parts to you just for the sake of making money without any thoughts of their company being a going concern. In short , they aren't a "flight by night" outfit and they won't sell you something that if in the unlikelyhood of something happening, they can't make you whole.

2) Again... its just "rotors" Dude... the main material is IRON ORE... there is no magical formula (despite all the marketing , advertising and brain washing..."oh!! but there is sooo much riding behind it ..") Look... I am gonna lay it down for you... like it or not... This rotor thing in the auto parts biz is much like a hamburger in the restaurant biz... its pretty hard to F it up... because its so damn simple and so hard to F it up....

I am not ECS, but if you were my customer... I'd offer you to use the rotors.. and if afterwards you are still bickering.. I'd sent you a check for refund (not paying for your shipping thou.. that was your choice to ship 50 lbs of dead weight across the Atlantic).

Good luck to you... both..


Cheers!!

beewang

We will attempt to answer your pointed questions as clearly as possible. Rest assured that we at ECS are passionate about what we do and we take pride in our products and great responsibility in how they are designed, manufactured, quality inspected, and tested. These are rotors that we are proud to run on our own cars, including but not limited to an Audi R8 and BMW E90 M3.

How do you check that the correct alloy has been used?

We subject products from our suppliers to not only dimensional quality inspection, but also material analysis. First production samples are submitted to a materials testing lab to verify that the material meets specifications. In this case, we are working with suppliers that we have a long standing manufacturing partnership with and can assure you they are made of the high quality materials we have specified.

2 Piece Rotor Rings:

• Our rotor ring supplier is ISO 9001 certified.
• Our rotor rings are made from FC-30 (equivalent to US ASTM standard 45A/DIN GG30) cast iron with a carbon content as high as 3.3%.
  
• Why cast iron?
  • Cast iron actually gets stronger between 500-600F and displays stable mechanical properties up to and over 1000°F
  • Hardness and strength aren’t compromised due to heat which contributes to great wear resistance, particularly at elevated temperatures.
  • Excellent thermal conductivity and heat absorption properties. High heat capacity (heat absorption) combined with high thermal conductivity make it a great material to absorb and dissipate heat more quickly
  • One of the best materials for good vibration damping properties; contributes to quiet braking and no rotor induced squeaking

2 Piece Rotor Hats:

• CNC Machined from billet 6061-T6 aluminum.
  
  • Why 6061-T6?
    • T6 temper 6061 has an ultimate tensile strength of at least 42,000 psi (300 MPa) and yield strength of at least 35,000 psi (241 MPa). Coupled with it's excellent strength, light weight nature and superior thermal conductivity, we are able to produce a much lighter rotor that is better able to dissipate heat, and withstand the stresses of thermal expansion pushed to the limit.

How do you ensure that correct forming has been performed in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever foundry?

• Are you referring to casting defects? Rotor rings are cast, then CNC machined to our specification. In this case we are at the mercy of our supplier, who is ISO 9001 certified, to correctly cast a rotor ring. Final machining/dimensional inspection is easily performed in house.
• Any casting defects are easily found during the machining process, again being processed at a facility that is ISO 9001 certified.
• Rotor hats are CNC machined from 6061-T6 billet. There is no "forming process", as you call it.

How do you verify that the proper heat treatment has been applied in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever plant?

• For our 2 piece rotors, the heat treatment that is performed is only for stress relief after the casting process. This stress relief is to reduce the potential for stress cracks and warping due to residual stresses left over from the casting process.
• Our ECS GEOMET® rotors follow standard casting and machining best practice for a high quality OE replacement rotor.

and so on...

To answer a few relevant questions you didn't ask:

• ALL ECS suppliers are subject to scrutiny regarding their quality management systems. All are either ISO 9001 certified, or have clear and documented quality control systems in place.
• All ECS designed products are subject to incoming quality inspection at ECS with a CMM (coordinate measuring machine) by our team of R&D engineers. This internal quality inspection system is well documented and serves to ensure our suppliers are consistently giving us product that meets our quality and performance expectations.
• All ECS designed products are subjected to test fitment and road testing.
• Our 2 Piece Rotors have been subjected to thousands of miles of hard street use and to the elements (including snow and salt) for years. They have also been subjected to scientific brutal stress testing at the track, performing countless high speed stops in quick succession. We have measured stopping distances and elevated rotor temperatures of over 1000*F for long sustained periods (to the point of rotor bluing and catching brake pads on fire), as well as subjecting rotors to careful post-test inspection for signs of irregular wear, warping, stress cracking, or any other signs of failure.
• Our rotors have proven themselves to be robust, demonstrating excellent wear characteristics, no warping, no thermal stress cracking, no signs of hot spots and minimal pad glazing.
• Ever do 100 emergency stops from 100 to 0 mph in quick succession? We have, many times. It's nauseating and exhausting.

We are confident these rotors will perform well. Any further information regarding the development and design of these rotors is deemed proprietary and confidential. No further questions will be answered.

Finally ECS did the homework…

It took more than 6500 views and 300 replies (and counting) from users all around the world to have substantial questions related to quality and process control answered.

Why this harsh, sometimes boring pin-pall was needed, remains a mystery to me, especially considering that many other manufacturers have this information readily and easily available in the description of similar products. Just as example, have a look to this from PFC – Performance Friction:

“ALL parts are proudly made in the USA”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/about-us/faqs.aspx

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO/TS 16949 : 2009”

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO 14001 : 2004”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/p...on-brakes.aspx

As I admitted several times, my error remains: not having asked in advance, and having assumed that ECS does the same as others do: making this product in the USA. But you know, once the confidence is lost, it is lost. That’s it.

I can only hope that ECS would include the infos in his web pages, side by side with a clear statement about the origin of the products. To discover this opening the box and hearing “we would have told you if you only had asked” is not a serious approach.

Thanks to ECS and to who has (positively) contributed to the discussion.
Following ECS, I will not keep the thread alive.

So to recap, you admit that you F up and didn't do your homework and decided to make a mountain out of a mole hill... And decided to trash a reputable supplier - ECS on internet so you can get some attention..