Is Mike Miller Maintenance for me?

Originally Posted by Yeoman

You actually think the BMW is going to risk pissing off a customer base, attracting poor publicity, reliability ratings and law suits while at the same time ensuring they don't get the customer back in the showroom to spend another $50K+ because they want to save them a $100 oil change every six months? Really? Talk about a marketing nightmare..

btw, BMW doesn't manufacture HPFPs.

They did exactly that with the HPFP's...you are right, though, they don't manufacture those, but I'm sure their engineers had some part in it. It was however all of what you stated above until ABC blew the whistle and BMW FINALLY stepped up.

Taking the cynical view, I don't really think BMW has much to lose by extended intervals and it saves them money in the long term since they "cover" them. Most people don't "buy" their BMW's anyway, so any long term effects, if any, of lengthened intervals aren't felt by the typical BMW buyer who trades in and leases every 3 years. The poor sucker (usually young, punk kids... hehe) who buys an older, extended interval BMW is the one stuck with the engine disaster, or not, and they are unlikely to do anything about it.

Just my thoughts, as someone who keeps vehicles for a long time, I will defer to the cautionary side and change around 8k miles, instead of their 15k normal. $60 bucks in parts and 30 mins of my time ain't gonna kill me. And yes, I realize I've not provided any evidence, just my .02 cents. Carry on...

The trend seem to be let the customer test it.
I don't know it this was always the case, it didn't seem to be at one time. Also they seem
to keep trying to leave there niche they created as a performance car
and go more toward the market trend.
And I guess you have to do that to survive .

Originally Posted by Yeoman

You actually think the BMW is going to risk pissing off a customer base, attracting poor publicity, reliability ratings and law suits while at the same time ensuring they don't get the customer back in the showroom to spend another $50K+ because they want to save them a $100 oil change every six months? Really? Talk about a marketing nightmare..

I don't think this is dispositive either way.

1 ) It is a long term problem, and it doesn't effect the "base" new / CPO buyer that BMW sees on a brand that already has a "don't own one out of warranty" tag.

2 ) Assume it saves 1 change per year per car, each change costs BMW $50, and they are doing it for the last 4 model years each year. BMW will sell about 325,000 cars in the US in 2012. So:

325k cars/yr * $50 / yr saved * 4 yrs = $65 million / yr

Do I think BMW could go with that risk for a $65 million per year? Why, yes. Yes, I do.
Do I think BMW does go with that risk? No idea.

Originally Posted by ard

And you can provide no proof that BWMs recommended intervals are adequate.

I don't have to because I'm not making the claim the interval is inadequate.

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

His basic point is that everybody is quick to assume that more frequent oil changes help, but there is absolutely no hard evidence of this. Its all anecdotal reports, posts on repair chat boards, advice from folk who want to sell you parts and oil. So, Sunny is saying that in the absence of hard evidence, he is sticking with what BMW suggests.

Actually I change mine more frequently than the BMW recommendation. While I have seen nothing to suggest the BMW interval is inadequate I also don't mind changing it more frequently just to be on the safe side.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Actually I change mine more frequently than the BMW recommendation.

So I was right about this being just verbal masterbation.

Originally Posted by Zooks527

I don't think this is dispositive either way.

1 ) It is a long term problem, and it doesn't effect the "base" new / CPO buyer that BMW sees on a brand that already has a "don't own one out of warranty" tag.

2 ) Assume it saves 1 change per year per car, each change costs BMW $50, and they are doing it for the last 4 model years each year. BMW will sell about 325,000 cars in the US in 2012. So:

325k cars/yr * $50 / yr saved * 4 yrs = $65 million / yr

Do I think BMW could go with that risk for a $65 million per year? Why, yes. Yes, I do.
Do I think BMW does go with that risk? No idea.

As regards motivation, as the immediate $ savings increase, the bean counter's reason for existence increases proportionately.

Originally Posted by ard

So I was right about this being just verbal masterbation.

No, you were not. But thanks for playing.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

...just to be on the safe side.

But it isnt 'safe'... the period after the oil change, when the engine starts dry, is a peak wear period. Unless there is a reason to change sooner, it is best- in the extreme- to never drain the oil!

So the trick- and this is well known by tribologists- is to change the oil when the oil needs changing: not before, not after.

Being 'on the safe side' is as intellectually dishonest as determining that 'bmw is wrong'.

Originally Posted by ard

But it isnt 'safe'... the period after the oil change, when the engine starts dry, is a peak wear period. Unless there is a reason to change sooner, it is best- in the extreme- to never drain the oil!

Now, not to be rude, but AYFKM ??

All the oil goes down to the oil pan when I stop the engine. I drain it out, and then refill the oil pan to the same level. How on earth is this any different from just starting the engine before emptying / filling the pan? The stopped engine doesn't suddenly realize the oil pan is empty and vomit extra oil out of additional crevices. It's no more "dry" after an oil change than it was before.

Yes every time you stop the engine oil drains from the top into the pan.
There was a book out in the 90's called "make it last forever" which confirmed
that starting your motor was the place where wear occurred most. They also had
a lot of data about acid build up in oil due to contaminants . At one point there was
a company that sold and electric oil pump that you could use to pre pressurize the engine
to avoid this it also was good for turbo's as you could keep circulating the oil after
the car was turned off to stop the coking (oil burning)effect caused by turbo's .

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Now, not to be rude, but AYFKM ??

All the oil goes down to the oil pan when I stop the engine. I drain it out, and then refill the oil pan to the same level. How on earth is this any different from just starting the engine before emptying / filling the pan? The stopped engine doesn't suddenly realize the oil pan is empty and vomit extra oil out of additional crevices. It's no more "dry" after an oil change than it was before.

Not exactly as you have a dry filter and empty filter housing after an oil change which takes a couple of seconds to fill up.

Originally Posted by usaret

Not exactly as you have a dry filter and empty filter housing after an oil change which takes a couple of seconds to fill up.

Even if they are on the feed path, while the filter may be unwetted with oil, the filter and canister both drain back to the pan when the engine is off, unlike a can style filter that holds a lot of oil even when the engine is off. There's, at best, about a tablespoon worth of oil that is lost removing and changing the filter, and perhaps a few tablespoons more that run from the outside of the filter canister to the pan when the filter is out of the housing. I don't know the flow rate for the pump, but based on the line size used for the cooler, it's appreciable (I've heard most run 8 or more gpm) and the volume missing from the filter housing will not significantly effect the priming time for the line in the oil path (if it's a 5 gpm pump and the difference is 3 tablespoons, we're talking a 0.14 second difference in full priming time).

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Even if they are on the feed path, while the filter may be unwetted with oil, the filter and canister both drain back to the pan when the engine is off.

Not true. Only when you crack the seal on the oil filter cap and allow air in does the oil drain back to the pan.

Originally Posted by usaret

Not true. Only when you crack the seal on the oil filter cap and allow air in does the oil drain back to the pan.

Well, I can't say how many times you've cracked your filter cap and heard enough air leak in to support the above statement, but I can say it's never happened in any of the 9 times I've changed the oil on mine.

The filter housing has an o-ring seal about 1" above the base, which stays in contact with the housing edge for +/- 80% of the thread travel. It takes me about 3 seconds to remove the cap once the o-ring comes clear of the seal edge. There would be an audible "whoosh" or gurgle if that much air was passing through the gap in that amount of time, and there isn't one. In addition, if the cap had been full of oil 15 seconds before I removed it, it would drip, and it doesn't.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

As regards motivation, as the immediate $ savings increase, the bean counter's reason for existence increases proportionately.

Aren't all car companies coming under pressure to reduce fluid wastes? I would think that would be more of a motivation than just $ in upkeep costs.

In fact, if it were just about $, BMW could save tons by engineering a car that required a bit less oil. 7 quarts?

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

In fact, if it were just about $, BMW could save tons by engineering a car that required a bit less oil. 7 quarts?

Well, perhaps not as much as you think. You'll still carry the labor costs and the balance of the oil.

Drop it to 5 quarts, so you save 2 quarts on the initial fill and on, say, 4 fills over the life of the car. 10 quarts total over the life of the car.

Figure BMW gets the oil at wholesale, say, $3 / qt.

$3/qt * 10 qts * 325,000 cars/yr = $10 million/year in the US. Ain't chicken feed, but still a fair sight short of the $65 million/yr mentioned above. The big money comes in saving the "all in" costs.

Originally Posted by ard

Oh, I assumed you were removing the oil filter with your changes.

I am. That doesn't change anything. See post #117.

Originally Posted by ard

An oil change and filter change IS different than stopping and starting.

Really? Explain why. Be sure to refer to the components in the flow path that you feel would allow the filter housing to remain flooded, if that's where you plan on going.

Originally Posted by Yeoman

Wow, auto repair shops encouraging you to come in more often so they can take your money? Sounds totally unbiased to me.

Oil and engine technology have advanced greatly since Jiffy Lube began brainwashing people into 3K intervals in the 80s. I know old people are set in their ways, but you should spend some of your spare time over at bobistheoilguy.com and educate yourself.

Yes, service shops overstate the service needed to line their pockets, but I find it kinda ironic that you would recommed someone educate thelselves by going to BITOG. I've spent plenty of time over there and examined a few Blackstone or other oil analysis' on the N54, as well as here, and all of them show the TBN down to almost 0 at close to 8K miles. If that's not proof I don't know what is.

You can do as you like, but I'm changing mine at around 8k miles.

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Well, I can't say how many times you've cracked your filter cap and heard enough air leak in to support the above statement, but I can say it's never happened in any of the 9 times I've changed the oil on mine.

Every 6,000 miles since new. I never engage in pointless internet arguments so this is as far as I'm going with this. Have a good one.

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Aren't all car companies coming under pressure to reduce fluid wastes? I would think that would be more of a motivation than just $ in upkeep costs.

In fact, if it were just about $, BMW could save tons by engineering a car that required a bit less oil. 7 quarts?

In the U.S. (most of the U.S.; I am not so sure about AZ and TX, they are always wanting to secede), there is a requirement to recycle the used oil, so 6, 7, 8 quarts doesn't really matter. More oil in the sump helps the engine with the extended service intervals.

Originally Posted by 335i Driver

Yes, service shops overstate the service needed to line their pockets, but I find it kinda ironic that you would recommed someone educate thelselves by going to BITOG. I've spent plenty of time over there and examined a few Blackstone or other oil analysis' on the N54, as well as here, and all of them show the TBN down to almost 0 at close to 8K miles. If that's not proof I don't know what is.

You can do as you like, but I'm changing mine at around 8k miles.

There are some on this thread who will only accept a formal published statement from BMW as proof. For everyone else there is ample data that supports an oil and filter change interval between 6,000 to 8,000 miles.

Originally Posted by ane934fun

there are some on this thread who will only accept a formal published statement from bmw as proof. For everyone else there is ample data that supports an oil and filter change interval between 6,000 to 8,000 miles.

Where?

Originally Posted by anE934fun

In the U.S. (most of the U.S.; I am not so sure about AZ and TX, they are always wanting to secede), there is a requirement to recycle the used oil, so 6, 7, 8 quarts doesn't really matter. More oil in the sump helps the engine with the extended service intervals.

Two different issues!

1) All car companies (and, in fact, all industries) are under pressure to minimize waste. This is part of why oil change frequencies are getting longer and longer.

2) I was suggesting that if BMW was ONLY interested in cutting corners, one way to do that would be to design an engine that needed less oil so they could spend less on raw materials in both the product and maintenance of cars.

On the larger theme of recycling, keep in mind that is not a zero sum game. Recycling is better than landfill, but it always consumes energy and there is never anywhere close to 100% recovery of the involved materials.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

There are some on this thread who will only accept a formal published statement from BMW as proof. For everyone else there is ample data that supports an oil and filter change interval between 6,000 to 8,000 miles.

There isn't "ample data" - just reports on chat boards.

Anecdotally, I recently brought my car in for my 7,500 mile change. My most excellent service advisor said "I'd love to take your money, but it is really not necessary." The dealer is not shy about recommending service, he just didn't think early oil changes accomplish much.

I did go ahead and have it changed, but the point is that a lot of folk who know more about BMWs than you or I ever will do not agree with the frequent change intervals.