Is Mike Miller Maintenance for me?

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Two different issues!

1) All car companies (and, in fact, all industries) are under pressure to minimize waste. This is part of why oil change frequencies are getting longer and longer.

I suspect there are other factors at play, given how extensively BMW advertises its 'free' service as part of why a prospective buyer should choose BMW over Brand X, Y or Z.

2) I was suggesting that if BMW was ONLY interested in cutting corners, one way to do that would be to design an engine that needed less oil so they could spend less on raw materials in both the product and maintenance of cars.

True up to a point. Toyota probably took the reduced engine oil capacity concept to the extreme and got bit hard (class action lawsuit re. oil sludge). Now, Toyota seems to be specifying 5,000 mile oil and filter change intervals (which IMO is moving the pendulum in the other direction).

On the larger theme of recycling, keep in mind that is not a zero sum game. Recycling is better than landfill, but it always consumes energy and there is never anywhere close to 100% recovery of the involved materials.

From a policy perspective, more energy expended in recycling seems to be better than used oil being incinerated or landfilled (AZ and TX excepted due to secessionist tendencies).

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Where?

Google and Bing can be your friends. The truth will set you free.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

Google and Bing can be your friends. The truth will set you free.

IOW the information doesn't really exist.

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

There isn't "ample data" - just reports on chat boards.

Anecdotally, I recently brought my car in for my 7,500 mile change. My most excellent service advisor said "I'd love to take your money, but it is really not necessary." The dealer is not shy about recommending service, he just didn't think early oil changes accomplish much.

I did go ahead and have it changed, but the point is that a lot of folk who know more about BMWs than you or I ever will do not agree with the frequent change intervals.

Your point goes to motivation. If BMW adopts a corporate policy to offer extended oil change intervals, anyone who is employed by BMW and goes public with their disagreement risks becoming an ex-employee. As a counter-point, I would submit that DSX knows more about BMWs than you or I combined. Yet he is one of the ones recommending a 6-8K oil and filter change interval. Even when he doesn't personally benefit. I have multiple analysis reports from Blackstone that confirm the oil is close to being depleted at the 8,000 mile point. 7,500 miles is a convenient threshold for me, so I do changes at that point. Why do you do changes at 7,500 miles?

Originally Posted by sunny5280

IOW the information doesn't really exist.

Not for you or others with closed minds. The truth will set you free. Google and Bing can be your friends.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

Not for you or others with closed minds. The truth will set you free. Google and Bing can be your friends.

No closed mind here...I don't have a horse in this race one way or the other. If you can't provide supporting references for your position then I'll assume your position is unsupported. It's not my responsibility to seek out support for YOUR claims.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

From a policy perspective, more energy expended in recycling seems to be better than used oil being incinerated or landfilled (AZ and TX excepted due to secessionist tendencies).

Certainly true! But, the old saying is "Reduce, reuse, and recycle" and I think we often ignore the first component of that. Better to use less paper, glass, aluminum and oil than to recycle more.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

Your point goes to motivation. If BMW adopts a corporate policy to offer extended oil change intervals, anyone who is employed by BMW and goes public with their disagreement risks becoming an ex-employee. As a counter-point, I would submit that DSX knows more about BMWs than you or I combined. Yet he is one of the ones recommending a 6-8K oil and filter change interval. Even when he doesn't personally benefit. I have multiple analysis reports from Blackstone that confirm the oil is close to being depleted at the 8,000 mile point. 7,500 miles is a convenient threshold for me, so I do changes at that point. Why do you do changes at 7,500 miles?

My SA would benefit from me betting more frequent oil changes. Yet, he discourages me from doing so because based on his expertise and experience, he does not view it as necessary.

I do changes at 7,500 miles because I personally think it makes good sense. I also see little reason not to. For $90 extra a year, why give it a second thought? In fact, I will stick to Mike Miller's schedule as long as I own a BMW.

To be clear, I am not trying to argue that BMW's oil change schedule is optimal. I simply agree with Sunny's point - there really isn't any compelling evidence to the contrary.

I also rotate my tires every 5,000 miles and I plan to swap out the water pump early as a preventative measure.

Better safe than sorry!

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

My SA would benefit from me betting more frequent oil changes. Yet, he discourages me from doing so because based on his expertise and experience, he does not view it as necessary.

I do changes at 7,500 miles because I personally think it makes good sense. I also see little reason not to. For $90 extra a year, why give it a second thought? In fact, I will stick to Mike Miller's schedule as long as I own a BMW.

To be clear, I am not trying to argue that BMW's oil change schedule is optimal. I simply agree with Sunny's point - there really isn't any compelling evidence to the contrary.

I also rotate my tires every 5,000 miles and I plan to swap out the water pump early as a preventative measure.

Better safe than sorry!

Otherwise known as peace of mind.

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Certainly true! But, the old saying is "Reduce, reuse, and recycle" and I think we often ignore the first component of that. Better to use less paper, glass, aluminum and oil than to recycle more.

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure (or something to that effect).

Kilgore, you posted "My SA would benefit from me betting more frequent oil changes. Yet, he discourages me from doing so because based on his expertise and experience, he does not view it as necessary." Do you really think that a SA is going to go against BMW Munich and say that you should get an oil change more often than it is required by the warranty? Do you see any opportunity for a lawyer to take any such suggestion and use it against BMW in a lawsuit over a sludged engine with 15K intervals?

I disagree with Mike Miller on a few things, but not on oil change intervals. Modern oils are far better than what was available only ten years ago. They can keep their lubricity, their viscosity, and their detergency for 15K miles. In the lab, but not in every engine in the real world.

Salesmen who get onto highways in Nevada and drive all day without a complete cool down have the best shot at getting 15K safe miles between changes. A commuter in a congested New England city isn't going to make it. His oil never gets hot enough to boil off the condensation collecting in the sump. Ever see water almost pouring out of a tailpipe on a Winter morning? It's not all going out the tailpipe. Shear forces ('scraping' of oil with suspended water droplets) is going to mix some of that moisture with the oil. In the gasoline are sulphur molecules. These molecules mix with water molecules to form sulphuric acid. There are buffers in oil to fight acids. They run out. The moisture in the oil reduces the vaporization point of some of the oil. It boils off when the engine is shut down. It then passes through the system and condenses on the fastest cooling metal, forming deposits which eventually turn into sludge.
Engines are started at 10F and then run at 200F and shut down. That kind of thermal cycling presents challenges to viscosity integrity you don't get in southern California. Where will oil last the longest? BMW always blames our sh*t gas for all kinds of mechanical and driveability problems. Do you think that maybe there are also things in the gas which result in risks to the oil? How about methanol blends, or base stock composition, or refinerey practices, or additive qualities? Your intuition has to recognize variability in all those areas. To think that BMW has evaluated all the potential hazards to oil reliability is absurd. If so, then one would have to say that to ensure every BMW engine will perform at peak reliability for as long as possible would require that oil last 40,000 miles in the very best circumstances. Because that would be the top end of the failure curve, and 15K would be the lower end. How likely is that?

Originally Posted by DSXMachina

Kilgore, you posted "My SA would benefit from me betting more frequent oil changes. Yet, he discourages me from doing so because based on his expertise and experience, he does not view it as necessary." Do you really think that a SA is going to go against BMW Munich and say that you should get an oil change more often than it is required by the warranty? Do you see any opportunity for a lawyer to take any such suggestion and use it against BMW in a lawsuit over a sludged engine with 15K intervals?

I disagree with Mike Miller on a few things, but not on oil change intervals. Modern oils are far better than what was available only ten years ago. They can keep their lubricity, their viscosity, and their detergency for 15K miles. In the lab, but not in every engine in the real world.

Salesmen who get onto highways in Nevada and drive all day without a complete cool down have the best shot at getting 15K safe miles between changes. A commuter in a congested New England city isn't going to make it. His oil never gets hot enough to boil off the condensation collecting in the sump. Ever see water almost pouring out of a tailpipe on a Winter morning? It's not all going out the tailpipe. Shear forces ('scraping' of oil with suspended water droplets) is going to mix some of that moisture with the oil. In the gasoline are sulphur molecules. These molecules mix with water molecules to form sulphuric acid. There are buffers in oil to fight acids. They run out. The moisture in the oil reduces the vaporization point of some of the oil. It boils off when the engine is shut down. It then passes through the system and condenses on the fastest cooling metal, forming deposits which eventually turn into sludge.
Engines are started at 10F and then run at 200F and shut down. That kind of thermal cycling presents challenges to viscosity integrity you don't get in southern California. Where will oil last the longest? BMW always blames our sh*t gas for all kinds of mechanical and driveability problems. Do you think that maybe there are also things in the gas which result in risks to the oil? How about methanol blends, or base stock composition, or refinerey practices, or additive qualities? Your intuition has to recognize variability in all those areas. To think that BMW has evaluated all the potential hazards to oil reliability is absurd. If so, then one would have to say that to ensure every BMW engine will perform at peak reliability for as long as possible would require that oil last 40,000 miles in the very best circumstances. Because that would be the top end of the failure curve, and 15K would be the lower end. How likely is that?

Well said. However, for those participating on this thread who are basically engaging in tautological rhetoric, it won't matter because they have a different agenda.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

Well said. However, for those participating on this thread who are basically engaging in tautological rhetoric, it won't matter because they have a different agenda.

I enjoy discussing with those who are discussing to make a point. It's those who argue because they like to argue who I have no time for.
I addressed my comment to Kilgore because he is one of the former. Though I do smile whenever I read his support of 15K intervals, his claim of no contrary evidence, and his need for 7.5K intervals for his own vehicle. Thank you, Kilgore.

Originally Posted by DSXMachina

I enjoy discussing with those who are discussing to make a point. It's those who argue because they like to argue who I have no time for.
I addressed my comment to Kilgore because he is one of the former. Though I do smile whenever I read his support of 15K intervals, his claim of no contrary evidence, and his need for 7.5K intervals for his own vehicle. Thank you, Kilgore.

I didn't say that I supported 15K intervals. In fact, I think the 15K interval is not sensible. It costs $90 a year for an extra oil change. Whether you believe you need it or not, why even take the chance for that little bit of money?

And, let's also be clear that 1) I still don't believe that is a lot of empirical support that intervals shorter than 15,000 are necessary, 2) I think it is a big mistake to push your oil much past 7,500.

Points 1 and 2 may seem like contradictions, but they are really not. I'm saying that there is no real evidence in support of Mike Miller, but there is no real evidence that Mike Milller ISN'T the way to go either. So, in the absence much hard data, I'm just going to go with what makes the most logical sense to me. And, logically, I think that they single best strategy for prolonging the life of your car is frequent oil changes. In your own post, you've detailed many of the reasons why I believe that to be the case.

But, I still respect Sunny's point. The hard evidence in support of my perspective still isn't there. So, its not really fact, it's just what I believe.

So there!

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I didn't say that I supported 15K intervals. In fact, I think the 15K interval is not sensible. It costs $90 a year for an extra oil change. Whether you believe you need it or not, why even take the chance for that little bit of money?

And, let's also be clear that 1) I still don't believe that is a lot of empirical support that intervals shorter than 15,000 are necessary, 2) I think it is a big mistake to push your oil much past 7,500.

Points 1 and 2 may seem like contradictions, but they are really not. I'm saying that there is no real evidence in support of Mike Miller, but there is no real evidence that Mike Milller ISN'T the way to go either. So, in the absence much hard data, I'm just going to go with what makes the most logical sense to me. And, logically, I think that they single best strategy for prolonging the life of your car is frequent oil changes. In your own post, you've detailed many of the reasons why I believe that to be the case.

But, I still respect Sunny's point. The hard evidence in support of my perspective still isn't there. So, its not really fact, it's just what I believe.

So there!

LOL, so you might be an agnostic if only the atheists didn't keep you from becoming a theist? Got it.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

Well said. However, for those participating on this thread who are basically engaging in tautological rhetoric, it won't matter because they have a different agenda.

Yes, my agenda is to save you time and money.. clearly suspect.

Originally Posted by anE934fun

Well said. However, for those participating on this thread who are basically engaging in tautological rhetoric, it won't matter because they have a different agenda.

You keep referring to some agenda. Specfically what agenda are you referring to?

Originally Posted by anE934fun

Well said. However, for those participating on this thread who are basically engaging in tautological rhetoric, it won't matter because they have a different agenda.

Tautological

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

There isn't "ample data" - just reports on chat boards.

Anecdotally, I recently brought my car in for my 7,500 mile change. My most excellent service advisor said "I'd love to take your money, but it is really not necessary." The dealer is not shy about recommending service, he just didn't think early oil changes accomplish much.

I did go ahead and have it changed, but the point is that a lot of folk who know more about BMWs than you or I ever will do not agree with the frequent change intervals.

Kilgore, there have been mutiple people post their UOA's done by reputable labs such as Blackstone to validate what we are saying. The person's posting also tend to describe the type of driving they do so we can make a pretty valid comparison to how our own oil may test.

That's a whole lot more than just reports on chat boards, unless you think the UOA's are faked or labs such as Blackstone are for some reason falsifying thier reports.

DXM's points are very valid. TBN down to 0, sulfuric and nitric acid in the crankcase, won't take long for your engine to be a sludge factory.