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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 12-16-2012, 10:11 AM
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An answer to some of the speculation about Tesla's financial stability. Read between the lines:

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/toyota-i...dable-evs.html
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  #27  
Old 12-16-2012, 10:43 AM
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Keyser Soze Keyser Soze is offline
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It's really a gorgeous car and they blend in that hatchback seamlessly. Very similar to the new Jaguars. Am I a buyer at nearly $90k for the loaded 85kw version? No, but if they sell enough of these and can remain financially viable and can get some other more mass produced versions out (with Toyota) there is no reason they shouldn't still be around in 20 years and competing in segments below $40k. It very well could be that Tesla's real long term plan is to basically become self supporting and then just become a division in a large carmakers portfolio. One of the main hindrances at massive short term growth to normal buyers (outside of people with F-you money who buy 4 cars at a time and rarely keep them past 3 years), will be our sh**ty infrastructure (electrical or otherwise) outside of well-heeled areas. Normal folks will also need these cars to run with little maintenance involved for 5+ years.
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Last edited by Keyser Soze; 12-16-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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  #28  
Old 12-16-2012, 11:22 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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I'm no tree hugger or new law pusher but I would vote for a federal law stating that every taxi (Leaf ) and town car ( Tesla S and X ) in the nation has to be an electric. After 10h at 30mph or 5h at 60 mph the driver needs an hours break so re-fueling should not be an issue. This could also make gas cheaper for us who treasure the noise of a highly tuned combustion engine.

Last edited by solstice; 12-16-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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  #29  
Old 12-16-2012, 11:40 AM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92116 View Post
People always miss reality when it comes to electric cars. Any perceived fuel savings is offset by the price premium of the car and the replacement of battery packs after 5-10 years at a cost of $30k or more according to Tesla. What will that due for resale on a 5 year old tesla that may need $30k in batteries?

Are they cool? Yes
Do they save you money? Absolutely not.

Also the Tesla gets "up to" 300 miles on a charge when new. Expect 150 miles or less after a couple years. So be sure to read the warranty carefully.

Tesla was considering separating the car and battery warranty. You know what that means.
You are right, people do miss reality. They constantly try and find the financial argument in buying an electric car. There is no financial advantage, just like how cars were not affordable when they first came out, or plasma TVs, or cell phones. If you wait for them to be financially better before making them, you will wait forever. It takes economies of scale, real world experience and refinement for the technology to overcome. But from what I have seen the S actually is a BETTER care than its petrol competition. And at $100k, no one is trying to see which car will be more economical over the long run....
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  #30  
Old 12-16-2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck92116 View Post
People always miss reality when it comes to electric cars.

...

Are they cool? Yes
Do they save you money? Absolutely not.

Oh, yes, they do. If we were able, 10 years ago, to say Eff You to all the right people; we, as a nation, would have been 2 trillions richer. Replace 28% of the oil imports with electric cars and we will be there - in a VERY good place to be.
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  #31  
Old 12-16-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck92116 View Post
Also the Tesla gets "up to" 300 miles on a charge when new. Expect 150 miles or less after a couple years. So be sure to read the warranty carefully.
Tesla's expertise is not in the batteries, but in battery management technology. I fully expect the batteries in these cars to last good and long and retain their charged capacity for many years. Also, if Moore's law holds true, in five years the batteries will hold four times the power and cost 25% of what they do now.

If we as a nation and as a society can keep momentum behind these technology advances, we have a very prosperous future without sending so much money outside of our borders.
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  #32  
Old 12-16-2012, 01:37 PM
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Here in Silicon Valley there are a lot of workplaces with charging stations. That may not be something we see across the country, but it's not uncommon here in NorCal and it makes the car so much more viable for those that can take advantage. Either way, Tesla has done an astonishing job with the Model S. It is without doubt the most complete, most capable and most game changing car in its class to date. This is a car designed and built right here in the Bay Area. The US industry had its ass handed to it by more innovative competition, right here is something that's leagues ahead of anything class-comparable from Germany.
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  #33  
Old 12-16-2012, 01:55 PM
5Xwen 5Xwen is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I test drove a Tesla Model S today.

I put down 2 deposits - one for the Model S and one for the Model X.
Congrats!

The Telsa S appears to be a great car. With the battery placed low on the chassis the center of gravity provides great handling. Torque is instant. Technology is cool. There is a lot to like about this car.

Would I buy one now - No. I'm not an overly early adopter. I'll wait until the kinks have been worked out, charging is improved, and prices come down. I don't think that's too far in the future.

As of today, IMO Telsa S makes a great second car (if you are single) or third car (if you are married) for someone who can afford $100K for a second or third car. As a second or third car, who cares if the range is "only" 300 miles - you have other cars in the fleet for that.
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  #34  
Old 12-16-2012, 03:32 PM
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This argument about range is relative: the Model S has more range than my M3. And that's my daily driver.
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  #35  
Old 12-16-2012, 03:36 PM
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This argument about range is relative: the Model S has more range than my M3. And that's my daily driver.
I hear ya...my DD once was an '08 M6 convertible.
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  #36  
Old 12-16-2012, 04:52 PM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
This argument about range is relative: the Model S has more range than my M3. And that's my daily driver.
And in reality, how many times do you drive more than 300 miles in one day? People are trying to make this car have to be the end all be all of cars to matter. You could go a week without charging, and if you had a 100 mile trip you top it off before you go.

I do wish they leased them, I like the car but don't want the risk of unknown depreciation, longevity of the company, warranty etc. In a weird kind of way I almost wish a BMW or equivalent would buy them to give everyone a little piece of mind. As long as they didn't mess things up (which they probably would)...
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  #37  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
This argument about range is relative: the Model S has more range than my M3. And that's my daily driver.
MotorTrend drove it like an economy car and they barely got to 240 miles on a full charge. Aggressive driving during their performance testing yielded about 50 miles on a charge. Has anyone else independently tested the Tesla S and got 300 miles? Of course none of this matters if one only drives ten miles a day.
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  #38  
Old 12-16-2012, 05:52 PM
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chuck92116 chuck92116 is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperSnoop View Post
Tesla's expertise is not in the batteries, but in battery management technology. I fully expect the batteries in these cars to last good and long and retain their charged capacity for many years. Also, if Moore's law holds true, in five years the batteries will hold four times the power and cost 25% of what they do now.

If we as a nation and as a society can keep momentum behind these technology advances, we have a very prosperous future without sending so much money outside of our borders.
Moore's law was referencing computer processing power. It does not apply to batteries.

Also when industry depletes natural resources to make batteries, the cost of raw materials goes up.

Batteries have not improved much in the last 30 years when you think about it.
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  #39  
Old 12-16-2012, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
MotorTrend drove it like an economy car and they barely got to 240 miles on a full charge. Aggressive driving during their performance testing yielded about 50 miles on a charge. Has anyone else independently tested the Tesla S and got 300 miles? Of course none of this matters if one only drives ten miles a day.
If I drive my M3 at 8300rpm all day then I will get about 6-8mpg -a track session gave me less, but the minimum showing at the OBC is 6mpg. Making its total range about 96-140 miles. Or less.

So yes, agressive driving obviously will give less range.

I think that the point of Tesla, as a company, is great for everybody. Hopefully it will be just the beginning of the full development and implementation of electric cars as a mainstream transportation alternative. I like my M3, but I really do not like the whole oil dependency on some messed up country resources, especially as a former member of the armed forces. We already have great hybrids, and now a great electric car. Good. They just need to offer relatively affordable models and make a profit. The rest will take care of itself...
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  #40  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:17 PM
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I really feel good when I think about the Tesla products.

They are american, and as technic pointed out, they dont depend on oil countries, which is a great thing.

they offer extra passenger seating in the trunk/storage area under hood which has hardly impressed any.

Instead If they had a huge battery pack under the hood and raise the range to some 600 - 700 miles... that would silence the critics harping on the 300 mile range.
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  #41  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:20 PM
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America is a net exporter of oil.
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  #42  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph1201 View Post
I really feel good when I think about the Tesla products.

They are american, and as technic pointed out, they dont depend on oil countries, which is a great thing.

they offer extra passenger seating in the trunk/storage area under hood which has hardly impressed any.

Instead If they had a huge battery pack under the hood and raise the range to some 600 - 700 miles... that would silence the critics harping on the 300 mile range.
The other thing that the Tesla experience reminded me of was the first iPhone (which I bought on day 1). Everyone said Apple would fail, but Apple showed that Silicon Valley can take on an old tired industry and revolutionalize it. And that is what Tesla has done here - they have brought the ideas and enterprise of Slicon Valley to revolutionaries a product which has only evolved incrementally for the last several decades.
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  #43  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:30 PM
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America is a net exporter of oil.
That is news to me. and I am not kidding. That's how ignorant I am.

But still, if this thing really goes big, (like Apple/Microsoft/Google) to an extent where Tesla offers cars that would cater to more sections of society around the world and not just hollywood celebrities - that will be good for america AND world in general.

because the oil countries will suddenly find a hole in their trump card.
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Last edited by Ralph1201; 12-16-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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  #44  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:37 PM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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You took my statement out of context. I never said they were not car enthusiasts. And please understand I'm not trying to make disparaging remarks about people who buy them. If I were wealthy enough I'd probably buy one.



If it suits your driving needs then that's fine. But what you are describing is exactly what I said - commuting. Besides, you don't have to drive more than 300 miles a day for it to be a problem (btw, real world range is not 300 miles on the current versions). If you drive somewhere that you spend the night away from home you are faced with finding a place to plug it in overnight. I take business trips from Houston to Dallas, New Orleans, Baton Rouge etc.

Again, I'm not trying to be overly critical, just pointing out the shortcomings which are very real and the fact that for me a $70,000 car cannot have the limitations or the risks that buying that car would entail.
Actually it's recreational driving. I only go to my office once a week. I don't have a commute.

However I find your argument very niche.

The average American household has more than 2 cars. Yet people argue this point as if they only have one car.
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Last edited by Stealth.Pilot; 12-16-2012 at 08:40 PM.
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  #45  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:45 PM
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BTW I drove back home for the holidays today. 690 miles. The M5 is a fantastic machine, especially the Stealth model.

The power, the handling, the comfort, the sheer sense of connectedness.

So with all this talk of the Tesla don't get the wrong impression - The Tesla can't hold a candle to the M5.
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Last edited by Stealth.Pilot; 12-16-2012 at 09:07 PM.
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  #46  
Old 12-16-2012, 09:16 PM
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America is a net exporter of oil.
Oil as oil products, yes, that's correct. But we have quite some way to go with crude oil and gasoline imports.
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  #47  
Old 12-16-2012, 10:35 PM
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Tesla S drove by me on the freeway today, the first I've seen. Was white. Honestly, I was disappointed. I thought it didn't look as good in person as it does in pictures. Had a bit of a Hyundai feel to it.

It "sounded" good though ;-)
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  #48  
Old 12-16-2012, 10:38 PM
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Oil as oil products, yes, that's correct. But we have quite some way to go with crude oil and gasoline imports.
Main product we are exporting is diesel fuel. This is due to the high price of fuel, mainly in Europe.
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  #49  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:15 AM
wildvlad wildvlad is offline
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  #50  
Old 12-17-2012, 05:40 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Actually it's recreational driving. I only go to my office once a week. I don't have a commute.

However I find your argument very niche.

The average American household has more than 2 cars. Yet people argue this point as if they only have one car.
I very seriously doubt that the average household has more than two cars for TWO drivers. Think about it.
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