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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 12-30-2011, 12:25 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
....Since picture sites are ephemeral, I've taken the liberty to shrink to 640x480 & then upload the original picture (showing the M54 CCV endcap in situ) ...
I didn't notice the CCV end cap until I zoomed in on the photo. I've added labels for that cap, the SAP one-way valve, and the SJP for clarity.

Note also that this photo shows the older style tube that connects the CCV to the dipstick tube. The newer style has a 45 degree bend instead of the 90 degree bend in this photo.

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Last edited by Steve530; 01-04-2012 at 12:39 AM. Reason: Re-labled Fuel Tank Breather Valve
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  #27  
Old 12-30-2011, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
I've added labels for that cap, the SAP one-way valve, and the SJP for clarity.
That addition makes the photo triply useful, for example for the SAP/SAS thread:
- How the secondary air system (SAS) and secondary air pump (SAP) and air valve, check valve, & electrical valve operate (1)
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  #28  
Old 01-04-2012, 12:43 AM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
That addition makes the photo triply useful, for example for the SAP/SAS thread:
- How the secondary air system (SAS) and secondary air pump (SAP) and air valve, check valve, & electrical valve operate (1)
Note I had incorrectly labelled the fuel tank breather valve as the suction jet pump in post #26. I edited the photo to fix this mistake. Sorry for any confusion this might have created.
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  #29  
Old 01-20-2012, 01:32 PM
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For the record, a similar question was asked today:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > What is this hose for on the ccv is it important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by e39munoz View Post
what is hose number 6 used for?
i changed the ccv a week ago and i dont remember connecting that hose
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  #30  
Old 01-20-2012, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post

So it seems likely that the nipple was indeed a vacuum source for a fuel pressure regulator. At high engine speed, a vacuum would be applied to the FPR to increase fuel flow. At idle, the high manifold pressure the closes CCV diaphragm and no vacuum would be applied to the FPR through the line connected to the nipple.
BB this thread is indeed very interesting.

I have an additional comment on the above quote from Steve530's post and that is that the vacuum for the FPF on the M52 motor and all other FPRs that I am familiar with works in exactly the opposite way that Steve530 describes.

When the engine is at idle (& at deceleration) it produces the greatest vacuum. This vacuum applied to the FPR reduces the fuel pressure at idle-less fuel is needed at idle. I know this for sure because when I installed a supercharger kit on my 2000 528iT (M52TU), I kept getting 1088 & 1089 fuel control fault codes-the short term fuel trim was in the -24 to -27 range on both banks when the engine was at idle. The instructions from the SC company had me disconnect the L shaped connector from the CVV and route it to the intake tube of the SC, sealing off the connection for that tube at the intake manifold. This removed the vacuum source from the CVV and hence from the FPR. I finally connected the vacuum hose from the FPR to an unused 3.5mm vacuum nipple on the back of the intake manifold-the STFT values went to -2 to -3.5 (normal) and no more fuel control fault codes. So the vacuum reduced the fuel pressure at idle. Also when the throttle is opened the vacuum is decreased & fuel pressure is increased when engine power needs to be increased.

BTW your vacuum port #9 above with the cracked cap is connected, in my car, to a vacuum line that supplies vacuum to the brake booster. Also the FPR in the M52 (single Vanos) is located on the fuel rail. On the M52TU it is relocated under the car, just in front of the fuel filter, under the driver's seat. On the M54 the FPR is integrated into the fuel filter located under the car, under the driver's seat.

Last edited by johnstern; 01-20-2012 at 09:04 PM.
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  #31  
Old 01-20-2012, 10:13 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Good comments, John. My analysis may be totally wrong. Here's some of my observations.

The crankcase vacuum with a properly operating CCV is reported to be 3 to 6 inches of water at idle. I measured the vacuum at one of the intake manifold nipples at 20 inches of mercury at idle. That's a lot of difference in vacuum.

Hose #3 connects the upper part of the CCV (the actual valve) to the vacuum of the intake manifold. Hoses #2 and #4 connect the lower part of the CCV (the oil separator) to the crankcase. That nipple to which the vacuum tube going to the FPR connects is below the diaphragm in the CCV. So my assumption is that the vacuum supplied to the FPR follows the operation of the diaphragm.

I agree that the every FPR I've seen operates by lowering fuel pressure as the vacuum supplied becomes more negative.

But it's also a fact that PCV valves have reduced flow at idle and higher flow at open throttle conditions. The top part of the CCV is essentially a PCV valve.

There appears to be ample vacuum to suck the oil out of the crankcase if the lower part of the CCV operates at intake manifold pressure. So the question is how is the intake manifold vacuum supplied to the FPR through the nipple on the CCV without creating so much vacuum in the oil separtator that the oil is pulled into the manifold?


EDIT: BTW, can you tell if the vacuum hose attached to the large vacuum port on the back of the manifold goes to the brake booster or the sucking jet pump?
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Last edited by Steve530; 01-20-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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  #32  
Old 01-21-2012, 02:59 PM
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johnstern johnstern is offline
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Steve, I want to thank you for your insightful description of the workings of the CVV. There is no doubt in my mind about the workings of the lower part of the valve-the oil separator function is clear after your explanation. It almost seems like the top half of the valve was originally designed to supply vacuum at deceleration and idle to the FPR while it sucks blowby gasses into the intake at off idle engine speeds. When there is a strong intake manifold vacuum and the diaphragm closes, the vacuum is directed to the nipple which isn't even used by the M54. Off idle, the diaphragm opens and the blowby gasses get sucked into the intake because there is such a large volume of air moving through the intake. This reduced vacuum is not enough to suck the oil out of the sump, but, if with age, the diaphragm begins to fail, oil get sucked up the dipstick tube-at first increased oil consumption, then clouds of blue smoke and finally, perhaps hydrolock, if the vehicle owner is asleep. Hahaha! Not really!

So why did the BMW engineers design such a complicated and problematic system for PCV function. My 96 Ford Ranger pickup 4.0 has a $15 PCV valve that seems to take care of things just fine. My 85 Euro M6 has a tube on the dipstick that ends in a tiny orifice. A hose leads from the orifice
to a vacuum port on the intake manifold-PCV function handled. Do you think, perhaps, the German engineers of today are just a little compulsive???

Last edited by johnstern; 01-22-2012 at 08:07 AM.
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  #33  
Old 01-21-2012, 07:58 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Thanks, John.

Your post got me thinking about the CCV once again. The vacuum port between the oil separator and the valve probably is operating at intake manifold vacuum since it controls the FPR on your car.

I cut a quarter section through the oil separator and found there is more structure in the cone than I had thought. There are a series of vanes inside the cone that direct the flow of gases. Also the tube that connects the valve to the oil separator goes all of the way through the oil separator to the hose that drains to the dipstick. There must be some opening in the tube that allows the oil to enter the drain hose, but I have not yet found that.
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  #34  
Old 10-19-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
There must be some opening in the tube that allows the oil to enter the drain hose, but I have not yet found that.
Looks like nobody knows the answer to that question, least of all me.

But, I came here just now to cross link this post today to here, for the record:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > Cute little trick to diagnose blocked CCV system...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakov View Post
So the fuel pressure regulator in M52, connected to CCV is operated with crankcase vacuum?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdl View Post
I have an M54 so I'm not really familiar with your engine. I have though seen the pictures and diagrams of the air hose off the CCV running to the fuel pressure regulator.

When if first saw those pictures a couple of years ago, I was baffled at the design intent. I finally realized that "operated with crankcase vacuum" is technically accurate. But assuming the CCV is working properly it is really so close to atmospheric pressure that it makes no practical difference. The CCV regulates crankcase vacuum to less than 15 millibar, or 0.15% different from atmospheric pressure.

I think the purpose of taking a reference pressure this way is to provide clean, filtered source of atmospheric pressure to the fuel pressure regulator without any chance of engine bay dirt, grit and grime fouling the sensitive parts of the small fuel pressure regulator. By comparision, the CCV is about 3 inches in diameter & much less sensitive to dirt. An awkward, klugey way to achieve the result in my opinion.

For the M54, BMW changed the design to take atmospheric reference pressure from the F fitting in the boot between the MAF and inlet manifold. That supply is kept clean by the engine air cleaner.
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Last edited by bluebee; 10-19-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-20-2012, 10:54 AM
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The information in this thread today belongs here to keep the discussion together:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ztom View Post
The vac hose effect is to reduce rail pressure at idle, by increasing bypass fuel flow. The cases where hose is tied to the cvv may have an additional effect to increase the rail pressure at high rpm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdl View Post
I've never been able to understand the physics behind the blow for bubbles test. And I never got bubbling: not with 9 inches vacuum, not after my CCV failed entirely (but then it wouldn't with a hole in the drain hose) and not after CCV replacement with vacuum in spec.

Consider that with the vent hose disconnected from the valve cover and blowing into it, the chamber in the CCV is at atmospheric pressure or slightly above; certainly no vacuum. Therefore the CCV's diaphram and orifice will be wide open, ready to draw vacuum on the vent hose (and thus crankcase, if connected) as soon as the engine is started and inlet manifold vacuum is present. The air being blown into the vent hose will take the easy route to the inlet manifold rather than the path down into the sump to make bubbles. It seems to me that the only way to get bubbling would be for the diaphram to be failed closed or the distribution piece on the manifold to be clogged. In this case one would have +ve pressure with the engine running - a definite CCV failure. Yet a pass for a good CCV is supposed to be a little resistance and bubbling when blowing into the vent hose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdl View Post
I checked TIS and the M52 engine does adjust fuel pressure depending inlet manifold vacuum. The M54 engine does not; it uses constant fuel pressure.

However, based on pictures and diagrams I've seen, the connection point on the CCV should be at crankcase vacuum, which is a constant 10 to 15 millibar vacuum. Essentially atmospheric; nothing like the 700 to 900 millibar inlet manifold vacuum seen during idle or over-run. So I can't explain the connection and response by the fuel pressure regulator
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  #36  
Old 10-21-2012, 08:33 AM
butterbean71 butterbean71 is offline
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Hi not sure if it the same as mine ccv i have a 1998 e39 . mine is under the rocker cover down by the throttle body .
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  #37  
Old 12-06-2012, 08:11 AM
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It makes me feel good when, after all this work by everyone, a question is answered here, in the forum, well before someone even thinks to ask it.

Happened just now, for example, for this vacuum port:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > Oil Separator Small Vacuum Hose

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dnormand View Post
I purchased a CCV kit for my 2001 BMW 525i. Installing it, for a moderately experienced DIYer, was a bit frustrating. I was able to find 3 video segments on Youtube that did a good job of providing step by step (look up M54 Crankcase ventilation). I have 2 issues for the forum - one a question and the other a comment/suggestion.

Question:
The new oil separator(OS) has a small port that was unplugged upon receiving it. Official BMW records say that port is "required" for my model year car. My old OS is not have it so I am thinking just plug it up. What should I do and if needed where does it bloody connect to?

Comment:
In order to connect the breather hose (valve cover to OS) I used a heat gun to soften the OS side due to it being very stiff. I actually broke the first OS trying to connect this one. (urrrrgggg!) Sometimes these aftermarket kits require a little finagling right?

Responses appreciated. Here is what I am talking about.
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  #38  
Old 12-18-2012, 07:43 AM
EthirtyMine EthirtyMine is offline
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I'm hoping this will be relevant to this thread.

Cliff Notes:


My car is a '00 (11/99) 528iT with the M52TU and a slushbox (A5S360R / A5S390R, I think). My hunt for a wiring fault causing P0335 and P0727 has [d]evolved into the following project:

- Adapter Lead (12514592703) for CKP: Connects to #8 here
- PS Reservoir and the low-pressure hoses
- Oil Filter Housing Gasket
- Intake Manifold Gasket
- CCV and associated tubes
- ICV cleaning
- Dipstick cleaning/redesign (from this thread
- Cleaning out years of gunk that have dripped and coated the block/undercarraige

I'm finding that a lot of my time is being spent rooting around for the safest way to disconnect various wires and hoses. I've never thought of myself as particularly ham-fisted, but I'll be porked if a lot of these connectors don't break if you look at them funny.

Right now, I'm trying to determine the best way to disconnect the intake manifold vacuum port, (#4. Do I just pry it gently? From the etk, it almost looks threaded. I didn't want to remove any hose clamps unless I had to, but maybe that's the best way?
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  #39  
Old 12-18-2012, 08:55 AM
EthirtyMine EthirtyMine is offline
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Screw it. I ended up cutting the clamp and the tip of the hose off. An hour wasted for that stupid thing, argh.

I need to expand my nuts/bolts/washers collection. If I'd had the right size washer, I would have cut a slot in it to use as a fork to separate the hose and the fitting.

Santa's getting an addendum to my list this year:
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  #40  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:57 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Over here, Doru supplied a great post explaining the related vacuum for the V8:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > How to test, clean, & redesign the original BMW dipstick guide tube (CCV vent clogs!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
Not on the v8. the dipstick goes straight into the sump without any other "attachments" (read tubes).



V8 CCV design is actually a cyclone, a different design than i6. It has no diaphragm.



The vacuum is created different.



Also, if ingestion occurs, the cylinder bank that gets it should be all disabled, not only 3 cylinders. Why is the 4th healthy?
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  #41  
Old 09-05-2013, 12:39 PM
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For the record, it looks like the E46 team is also investigating the status of the vacuum port on the CCV valve, as per this thread today:
> E46 (1999 - 2006) > Help with cvv valve vacum hose!!!
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  #42  
Old 10-15-2013, 01:33 AM
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1999-2000 the vacuum hose is to vent some of the crankcase pressures.

2001+ capped off in order to increase crankcase pressure.

During part load operation these engines are not sucking anything out of the crankcase, the CCV valve is closed. If there was any negative pressure in the crankcase the air will be pulled trough springless crankshaft seals, the rear one would leak oil badly.

The older BMW has spring loaded seals so it can deal with lots of vacuum but it can't take any pressure.
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  #43  
Old 10-15-2013, 09:54 AM
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More information about the vacuum hose was posted in the CCV thread so I bring it here so that we don't lose valuable information:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HakenTT View Post
Under normal driving condition M54 engine crankcase pressure is positive not negative. This is to make the springless lip crankshaft seals seal properly. M54 is known for its front and rear crankshaft seal leaks. And valve cover leaks. It is flawed design.

The vacuum hose on the CCV is to relieve the access crankcase pressure, it goes to the intake boot.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/att...1&d=1319901708
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  #44  
Old 02-06-2014, 10:44 PM
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Just for the record:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > Help with a CCV and non-return valve please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecm2003 View Post
I have just completed a complete replacement of the CCV and all the vacuum lines-hoses on my 530i. Thanks to all the inf provided on the forums here and youtube vids I was able to complete the job with only minor difficulty.

That being said I did have a couple of concerns when I had finished. The first concerns the small vacuum nipple coming out of the side of the CCV. Somehow I over looked this minor detail which I'm sure will not be a minor detail if left unattended. Problem is, as you can see in the diagram (image below) from RealOEM that the hose and nipple are not annotated in the diagram. Well the hose is but it doesn't show where it goes and for the life of me I don't remember there being a hose on the old unit I relaced. If someone could clue me into where the hose connects I would really appreciate it.

Secondly is the matter of the non-return valve (6) which is located at the back of the intake manifold on the drivers side. On the RealOEM diagram it show a vacuum line running from the valve (6) to the back of the intake manifold with an end cap (9) also running to back of the intake manifold. During my refit of the vacuum lines I found another nipple in the same area which qapparently was missing eithe a line or an end cap. After feeling around a bit I found the remains of an end cap. Problems is did I get things back in the right place.

If you could look at the diagram and then at my pictures (which are not great as the camera is hard to get into position for a decent pic) maybe you can tell me if the end cap with the questin mark is in the right place or if I need to move vacuum line (7) to that position and the end cap (?) to where the vac line (7) is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanmk you
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  #45  
Old 02-07-2014, 12:44 PM
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My Indy that installed my newer engine (running the normal CCV system on this one) has shown me an interesting little add on he's come up with. The new part is a plastic one way vacuum valve with a clear cylinder about 2 inches in diameter and about 3 inches tall. The part hooks to the oil return line fron the CCV to the dipstick tube. When you turn the car off the oil flows back into the dipstick drain and when the car is cranked the vale at the bottom of the cylinder closes--with this installed--oil cannot be sucked back into the engine--that happens with a ccv failure--with this gizmo hooked up--no posibility of hydrolocking occuring--Mine will be installed today--This also means tha a CCV can last for along time--the only thing that can really fail will be the hoses going into it--My Indy has installed many of these on cars running around town and all is well with the ones on the road
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  #46  
Old 03-19-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poolman View Post
My Indy that installed my newer engine (running the normal CCV system on this one) has shown me an interesting little add on he's come up with. The new part is a plastic one way vacuum valve with a clear cylinder about 2 inches in diameter and about 3 inches tall. The part hooks to the oil return line fron the CCV to the dipstick tube. When you turn the car off the oil flows back into the dipstick drain and when the car is cranked the vale at the bottom of the cylinder closes--with this installed--oil cannot be sucked back into the engine--that happens with a ccv failure--with this gizmo hooked up--no posibility of hydrolocking occuring--Mine will be installed today--This also means tha a CCV can last for along time--the only thing that can really fail will be the hoses going into it--My Indy has installed many of these on cars running around town and all is well with the ones on the road
Poolman can you post a pic of the valve, and where you can get it from?
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  #47  
Old 03-19-2014, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poolman View Post
My Indy that installed my newer engine (running the normal CCV system on this one) has shown me an interesting little add on he's come up with. The new part is a plastic one way vacuum valve with a clear cylinder about 2 inches in diameter and about 3 inches tall. The part hooks to the oil return line fron the CCV to the dipstick tube. When you turn the car off the oil flows back into the dipstick drain and when the car is cranked the vale at the bottom of the cylinder closes--with this installed--oil cannot be sucked back into the engine--that happens with a ccv failure--with this gizmo hooked up--no posibility of hydrolocking occuring--Mine will be installed today--This also means tha a CCV can last for along time--the only thing that can really fail will be the hoses going into it--My Indy has installed many of these on cars running around town and all is well with the ones on the road
Poolman could you please post a pic of the valve and the info from where you can get it from? Maybe dimensions as well?
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  #48  
Old 03-20-2014, 09:16 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
Poolman could you please post a pic of the valve and the info from where you can get it from? Maybe dimensions as well?
I would like to know about this valve, too. Sounds like a good idea.
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  #49  
Old 08-13-2014, 07:57 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Mein Auto: 02 BMW 525i M54 auto 130K
This related question was asked today:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > How to test the BMW E39 pressure-controlled crankcase ventilation system (CCV)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenwilson33 View Post
While I'm here, I want to ask for our 02' 525i, is the tiny opening on the CCV valve capped or does it go somewhere?
See also:
- How to test the crankcase ventilation (aka CCV, CVV, PCV, CPV, & OSV) pressure regulating valve system (1) & the canonical bimmerfest Fudman M54 CCV replacement DIY (1) & the bimmerforums Jason5Driver M54 CCV DIY (1) & the BavAuto M54 CCV DIY (1) & sorely needed clarification on how the M54 CCV vacuum port works on the M52 CCV valve connection to the fuel pressure regulator connection (1) & how to do a CCV delete (1) & how to test, clean, & redesign the original BMW dipstick guide tube to prevent CCV vent clogs (1)
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Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need
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  #50  
Old 09-12-2014, 07:47 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
Seek to understand,^Value
Location: San Jose, California
 
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Posts: 21,283
Mein Auto: 02 BMW 525i M54 auto 130K
This thread today asks a related question:
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > CCV valve nipple - hose or no hose?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanPhang View Post
Planning to do CCV tomorrow. Checking parts to make sure they fit with each other.

I ordered the non-insulated version of the CCV as shown in the figure. From the excellent DIY by fudman I know there is no vacuum hose needed for the nipple. I don't know if it's the same case for this non-insulated version. The nipple I am referring to is the very thin part sticking out in the middle.

If no vacuum hose is needed for this, do I need to do anything about this nipple, like plugging it somehow?

Thank you!
See also:
- How to locate all problematic (between 1/8" & 9/32" ID) 3.5x1.8mm, 3.3x1.8mm & (between 17/64" & 9/32" ID) 7mm ID vacuum tubing (single material), vacuum hoses (multiple material), 3.3mm OD curved vacuum pipes (rigid tubes), 3.5mm & 7mm ID vacuum endcaps (closed end) & 7x3mm manifold o-rings (1) & 7.52X3.52mm and 9.2X2.8mm fuel injection o-rings (1) & gaskets (1) on the M54 engine & where in the USA to get new vacuum tubing & vacuum caps (1) & what SAE sizes to get for all the metric M54 engine vacuum tubes, hoses, pipes, and caps (1) & correcting the F-connector errors in the realoem diagrams (1) & finding the ends of hard-to-locate vacuum tubes (1) & sorely needed clarification on how the M54 CCV vacuum port works on the M52 CCV valve connection to the fuel pressure regulator connection (1) & how to make, borrow, or buy lean-condition misfire test tools to test for vacuum leaks & lean conditions (1) (2)
__________________
Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need
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