X5 35d vs. Porsche Cayenne Diesel

Originally Posted by Syntax

All dealers? Any Porsche?

Sorry, but that is complete garbage.

If you think otherwise, try calling a south Florida dealer and asking them for 6% off an order on the 991 GT3.

I guess I wrote that wrong. Of course not EVERY Porsche & you do need to have a decent relationship with your dealer. I will go back and make an edit to correct the post.

Originally Posted by solstice

Fantastic, I guess this also answers the question on why the base diesel have the less advanced system, cost savings. Thanks Mike!

Yes, and I learned something too.

- Mike

Well that answers the question about the Cayenne S diesel -- but what about the diesel we get here? What drivetrain does that one have -- is it the same as the T-egg and Q7 diesel? I got the impression that the diesel drivetrain was more robust (and also heavier) than the "new" quattro-like system used in the gasser Cayennes. The diesel 4WD system still had the locker and low range used in previous year's (prior to '11) and hence was more off road capable. Ideal for getting wayward scribes out of creekbeds and tundra in Alaska as I recall.

Originally Posted by UncleJ

Well that answers the question about the Cayenne S diesel -- but what about the diesel we get here? What drivetrain does that one have -- is it the same as the T-egg and Q7 diesel? I got the impression that the diesel drivetrain was more robust (and also heavier) than the "new" quattro-like system used in the gasser Cayennes. The diesel 4WD system still had the locker and low range used in previous year's (prior to '11) and hence was more off road capable. Ideal for getting wayward scribes out of creekbeds and tundra in Alaska as I recall.

As I understand it the base diesel uses a Torsen diff system while the gassers uses an electronic system with clutches to distribute torque. Torsen is a good AWD system but it does not give the same RWD bias and feel under good grip conditions, it's heavier and often results in a less optimal weight distribution and lacks some features to automatically lock the differentials. VW and Audi also uses a similar electronic system ( Haldex ) in many cars but this acts as an FWD when grip is good. I think the T-egg and Q's uses the same type of Torsen system as the the base diesel. All has dumped the low range transfer case. The diesels manual lock is for the center diff, something that as i understand it the gassers system handles automatically.

Originally Posted by solstice

As I understand it the base diesel uses a Torsen diff system while the gassers uses an electronic system with clutches to distribute torque. Torsen is a good AWD system but it does not give the same RWD bias and feel under good grip conditions, it's heavier and often results in a less optimal weight distribution and lacks some features to automatically lock the differentials. VW and Audi also uses a similar electronic system ( Haldex ) in many cars but this acts as an FWD when grip is good. I think the T-egg and Q's uses the same type of Torsen system as the the base diesel. All has dumped the low range transfer case. The diesels manual lock is for the center diff, something that as i understand it the gassers system handles automatically.

Does the Porsche uses electronic locking differential like BMW X5 or does it uses a mechanical system like the X6 for side to side?

Henry the BMW system is different than the AV(P)G systems -- not to say its any worse or better just different. All the systems are the same in that they provide four wheel drive of course, and share other features as well. As far as the Cayenne/T-egg-Q7 diesels go, I believe that the diesel drive trains retain the prior system with the locker low range and weight penalty -- of course that adds off road capability for those insane enough to run the Rubicon with their new diesel Cayenne! However Mike would know the definitive answer -- having used one off road up in the far North.

Originally Posted by henrycyao

Does the Porsche uses electronic locking differential like BMW X5

I don't think X5 has locking differential. The xdrive system instead uses brakes selectively to stop the individual wheels from spinning when grip is lost.
If I recall correctly, a locking differential keeps all wheels spinning at the same speed.
A locking differential will get you out of snow or sand faster. That's the reason why the X5 manual basically tells you to turn off DSC and push the pedal to the metal when stuck in snow or sand.

Originally Posted by UncleJ

Henry the BMW system is different than the AV(P)G systems -- not to say its any worse or better just different. All the systems are the same in that they provide four wheel drive of course, and share other features as well. As far as the Cayenne/T-egg-Q7 diesels go, I believe that the diesel drive trains retain the prior system with the locker low range and weight penalty -- of course that adds off road capability for those insane enough to run the Rubicon with their new diesel Cayenne! However Mike would know the definitive answer -- having used one off road up in the far North.

They use different systems... of which I am no expert. I am going to assume that Porsche's "premium" system (not on Cayenne Diesel but on the S, GTS and Turbo) is more sophisticated and lighter than BMW's. However, its "basic" system (found on Cayenne Diesel) is inferior.

Keep in mind that tires and ground clearance, not the ultimate sophistication of the AWD system, make all the difference when the pavement ends.

Oh, look what Aston Martin put in my driveway yesterday... https://twitter.com/Schnell_Auto/sta.../photo/1/large

- Mike

Originally Posted by Emission

Oh, look what Aston Martin put in my driveway yesterday... https://twitter.com/Schnell_Auto/sta.../photo/1/large

- Mike

My dog took a poop in my driveway... I think you got the better end of the deal.

Jay

Originally Posted by jashearer

My dog took a poop in my driveway... I think you got the better end of the deal.

Jay

My DB9 goes home on Friday.

You have an X5 35d for as long as you wish... you win.

- Mike

Porsche's description of the two systems on page 49 and page 50. It's not very detailed on the diesel / hybrid but as far as I know that system uses a Torsen diff. I think the 60% rear wheel bias it offers is far to little for the 911 where the electronically controlled Porsche system used in the other Cayennes is a must since it gives ~90% rear wheel bias at good grip. This more advanced system is supposed to offer a purer sports feel, be lighter and be better off-road. The old Cayenne / T-egg system with a low range transfer case is history.

http://www.porsche.com/microsite/ipa...en/Cayenne.pdf

To me, it seems like you are giving up quite a lot of important Porsche AWD advancements with the diesel in good and poor grip.

Originally Posted by solstice

Porsche's description of the two systems on page 49 and page 50. It's not very detailed on the diesel / hybrid but as far as I know that system uses a Torsen diff. I think the 60% rear wheel bias it offers is far to little for the 911 where the electronically controlled Porsche system used in the other Cayennes is a must since it gives ~90% rear wheel bias at good grip. This more advanced system is supposed to offer a purer sports feel, be lighter and be better off-road. The old Cayenne / T-egg system with a low range transfer case is history.

http://www.porsche.com/microsite/ipa...en/Cayenne.pdf

To me, it seems like you are giving up quite a lot of important Porsche AWD advancements with the diesel in good and poor grip.

The PDF helps quite a bit. It looks like Porsche uses brake as in the case of BMW X5 for side to side adjustment.

If one of the wheels is about to lose traction, PTM uses the ABD function to apply the corresponding brake. As a result, more drive is automatically transferred to the opposite wheel.

Speaking of rear wheel bias, why does BMW X3 offers an option to go 80% rear and 20% front where as the BMW X5 is 60% rear and 40% front? I thought it is just a software thing to keep the ratio different. BMW X5 supposed to be able to move 100% torque in either axel or did I remembered this wrong.

As for my reference for electronic locking differential, I thought that was the term for using brake to emulate limited slip differential. It slows down the faster wheel hence more torque applies to the wheel with the grip.

Besides off road, is there any reason why you really need a locking differential on center and all wheel locking differential? Does snow change that characteristic that much?

Originally Posted by Emission

My DB9 goes home on Friday.

You have an X5 35d for as long as you wish... you win.

- Mike

I am jumping forum topic a bit. Its those big rims in sports car that gets people the impression that bigger rim = better performance car. Looking at your Aston review photos, you might as well just get rid of tires completely. There are barely any rubbers on that car!

I like your comment on the Adaptive Damping System. I wish more would realize how important adaptive system is for a dynamic and sporty drive. The body roll seem very good on that picture.

That's what they are aiming for Henry -- no more rubber, hence no more flat tires!

Originally Posted by ndabunka

You can get 6% discount from most ALL Porsche dealers for the more common Porsche's (limited availability models may well require MSRP or even premiums above MSRP) but for a Cayenne Diesel (thread title)? YEA, 6% off pretty much ANY configuration. You just need to TELL THEM that is what they need to do to get you to complete the deal.

I've tried this line at my local Porsche dealer. They told me that if I don't pay MSRP on a diesel, there are other people behind me that will. Sad thing is that they're probably right.

nda is probably right for the base Cayenne gasser (if you can find one), but right now the diesels are in short supply and high demand. Any "tell them" approach would (at least around here) be met with a bemused look and a gentle, if you don't want the car at this price then we have other customers who do.

Originally Posted by UncleJ

nda is probably right for the base Cayenne gasser (if you can find one), but right now the diesels are in short supply and high demand. Any "tell them" approach would (at least around here) be met with a bemused look and a gentle, if you don't want the car at this price then we have other customers who do.

I had one here in town offered at a discount. I did not follow up on it since lost interest in one after the one I drove.

So I've been frequenting Rennlist. The services every 5k is just a myth. The first service is at 5k to get rid of the break-in oil and then it's variable. On board computer will tell you when it needs a change.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

So I've been frequenting Rennlist. The services every 5k is just a myth. The first service is at 5k to get rid of the break-in oil and then it's variable. On board computer will tell you when it needs a change.

VW T-egg is similar although I remembered it being at 3k miles. I went and looked/drove all four(TDI T-egg, Porsche diesel, X5d, and ML350 BT) this past Friday. If I buy something it will be tomorrow but not one of them I left feeling sold on at all. I went and drove an ML550 yesterday and that sold me but unfortunately the only one in town I could find was the decked out one I drove and not going to pay that much for an SUV.

Well, I would probably be sold on an ML63 too! However, the more I look at the T-egg the more I think "bargain" -- for diesels that is. Now that may well change when the Q5 TDI and the Jeep GC diesel show up in a few months. I suspect their price point will hover right around $38K or so at the base end. I have seen several of the new style VW T-eggs around and they are nice looking machines IMHO. However, the new Hybrid VW T-egg that Emission just did a report on for AutoBlog made no sense at all to me. Virtually the same fuel mileage and a serious jump in price from the diesels. That coupled with the complex nature of the beast and the lack of familiarity with them at the dealership level would keep me away from them in any case. However, it was a nice review Mike!

Heh, yeah and a ML63 is yet another massive jump in cost, matter of fact all three I saw were the same cost as the one X5M I saw. I actually agree in that the T-egg actually seems like the best deal out there. I have been debating between it and the ML350 Bluetec. Cost difference is around $8k from what I was quoted with the ML being more expensive. The ML of course having more bells and whistles. The only ML550 I found had pretty much every option and was around $80-81k and while it drove a ton better than it's diesel counterpart, just not worth a good $25k more to me.

Originally Posted by Snipe656

Heh, yeah and a ML63 is yet another massive jump in cost, matter of fact all three I saw were the same cost as the one X5M I saw. I actually agree in that the T-egg actually seems like the best deal out there. I have been debating between it and the ML350 Bluetec. Cost difference is around $8k from what I was quoted with the ML being more expensive. The ML of course having more bells and whistles. The only ML550 I found had pretty much every option and was around $80-81k and while it drove a ton better than it's diesel counterpart, just not worth a good $25k more to me.

One thing for sure is that the ML350 Bluetec and Touareg Diesel will have much better resale value. All diesels have a better resale value. Hell, you have 2001 VW Golf diesels with 100K+ miles that go for about $10K and that car was originally new for 20K.

Originally Posted by tribecaX5

One thing for sure is that the ML350 Bluetec and Touareg Diesel will have much better resale value. All diesels have a better resale value. Hell, you have 2001 VW Golf diesels with 100K+ miles that go for about $10K and that car was originally new for 20K.

I often wonder about resale of diesels. My truck has been worthless for years. My 335d seems to maybe be worth just under half what it was new, is that good resale? Does not seem great to me.

Originally Posted by Snipe656

VW T-egg is similar although I remembered it being at 3k miles. I went and looked/drove all four(TDI T-egg, Porsche diesel, X5d, and ML350 BT) this past Friday. If I buy something it will be tomorrow but not one of them I left feeling sold on at all. I went and drove an ML550 yesterday and that sold me but unfortunately the only one in town I could find was the decked out one I drove and not going to pay that much for an SUV.

This is wrong. Treg's first service is 10k and then every 10k after that.

Originally Posted by Snipe656

I often wonder about resale of diesels. My truck has been worthless for years. My 335d seems to maybe be worth just under half what it was new, is that good resale? Does not seem great to me.

The comparison to your truck is invalid because American cars have poor resale in general and the diesel isn't a very rare variant of them. Comparing the petrol and diesel versions of various German cars, the diesel is always worth more. Used 335d cost close to 335i prices.