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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:45 AM
JDCLibby77 JDCLibby77 is offline
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2012 executive program vehicle pricing

hi all, I am new to BMW and I am looking to get the first for my family. We have settled on the X5 35d and I have a few questions. Leasing is not an option because we drive too many miles so purchase will be for us. We have looked at Certified Preowned and new. pricing negotiations seem to be straight forward on a CPO vehicle or a Brand new zero mile vehicle. but I have a question on the following situation.

A dealer I have been talking to over the past month while looking for what we want and settling on details has recently notified me that he has purchased from auction 2 2012 X5 35d's that were driven in their executive program, all with less than 15,000 miles but will be sold as NEW through the dealership. I he has given me the MSRP for each of them and has said that "generally we can sell these for 10% less than MSRP". My question is where can you start negotiations on this situation where they are really NOT new? Does anyone have experience with this type of deal?

Also, I am very interested in the CPO warranty and where these are being sold as new, the warranty will not extend beyond the factory warranty. If I chose to have one certified to get the extended warranty would I still be able to buy as new and take advantage of the $6K worth of rebates available right now?

Thanks for the help in advance.
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  #2  
Old 11-24-2012, 06:50 AM
jeme jeme is offline
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I am considering purchasing one myself a new zero miles one and have them well below 10% off MSRP, seems way to high for a vehicle with 15K miles.
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  #3  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:01 AM
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SARAFIL SARAFIL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCLibby77 View Post
hi all, I am new to BMW and I am looking to get the first for my family. We have settled on the X5 35d and I have a few questions. Leasing is not an option because we drive too many miles so purchase will be for us. We have looked at Certified Preowned and new. pricing negotiations seem to be straight forward on a CPO vehicle or a Brand new zero mile vehicle. but I have a question on the following situation.

A dealer I have been talking to over the past month while looking for what we want and settling on details has recently notified me that he has purchased from auction 2 2012 X5 35d's that were driven in their executive program, all with less than 15,000 miles but will be sold as NEW through the dealership. I he has given me the MSRP for each of them and has said that "generally we can sell these for 10% less than MSRP". My question is where can you start negotiations on this situation where they are really NOT new? Does anyone have experience with this type of deal?

Also, I am very interested in the CPO warranty and where these are being sold as new, the warranty will not extend beyond the factory warranty. If I chose to have one certified to get the extended warranty would I still be able to buy as new and take advantage of the $6K worth of rebates available right now?

Thanks for the help in advance.
Treat it just like a used one if it has 15k miles.

If they say they can sell as new, they are getting all the incentives when they sell it.
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  #4  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:22 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCLibby77 View Post
hi all, I am new to BMW and I am looking to get the first for my family. We have settled on the X5 35d and I have a few questions. Leasing is not an option because we drive too many miles so purchase will be for us. We have looked at Certified Preowned and new. pricing negotiations seem to be straight forward on a CPO vehicle or a Brand new zero mile vehicle. but I have a question on the following situation.

A dealer I have been talking to over the past month while looking for what we want and settling on details has recently notified me that he has purchased from auction 2 2012 X5 35d's that were driven in their executive program, all with less than 15,000 miles but will be sold as NEW through the dealership. I he has given me the MSRP for each of them and has said that "generally we can sell these for 10% less than MSRP". My question is where can you start negotiations on this situation where they are really NOT new? Does anyone have experience with this type of deal?

Also, I am very interested in the CPO warranty and where these are being sold as new, the warranty will not extend beyond the factory warranty. If I chose to have one certified to get the extended warranty would I still be able to buy as new and take advantage of the $6K worth of rebates available right now?

Thanks for the help in advance.
These are what folks in the know call "brass hats". I have done a brass hat deal and it is not the good deal it was say 4 years ago. Seeing that you can get 10% off of a brand new 2013 x5d I would pass and just order a new one to my specs from a fest sponsor (I know because I have a standing offer on a build to order x5d for well over 10% off MSRP....3000 eco credit, 750 loyalty, 1500 holdiay cash and 1k over invoice). To answer your question, you cannot figure out what they paid for the car unless you have access to Manheim to search the sale of "factory" cars in your local area. I would bet they purchased the car around 20-25% below MSRP. Lastly, you can extend your factory warranty through BMW. Does not have to be done at time of purchase so you have time to take care of that later.
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Last edited by Alpine300ZHP; 11-24-2012 at 08:26 AM.
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  #5  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:30 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Unless of course these X5's were press loaner vehicles or (horrors!) used at the Performance Center Delivery program! If they were just garden variety "Sales Manager's Wife's" car then they should be priced as "demos". You can bet that the OEM warranty clock was started when they went "in service" too, so your OEM mileage is now down to 35K from 50K miles. A CPO or the extended warranty is a good idea here. On another note, why not get a diesel? With all the incentives you should be able to get a brand new one from a fest sponsor for close to the same money.

Last edited by UncleJ; 11-24-2012 at 08:31 AM.
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  #6  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:45 AM
ard ard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
These are what folks in the know call "brass hats". I have done a brass hat deal and it is not the good deal it was say 4 years ago. Seeing that you can get 10% off of a brand new 2013 x5d I would pass and just order a new one to my specs from a fest sponsor (I know because I have a standing offer on a build to order x5d for well over 10% off MSRP....3000 eco credit, 750 loyalty, 1500 holdiay cash and 1k over invoice). To answer your question, you cannot figure out what they paid for the car unless you have access to Manheim to search the sale of "factory" cars in your local area. I would bet they purchased the car around 20-25% below MSRP. Lastly, you can extend your factory warranty through BMW. Does not have to be done at time of purchase so you have time to take care of that later.
Great advice.

OP, you can find some VERY good information here on this forum.... I suggest you do some reading and searching.

Clearly, you've only been talling to a BMW salesman who has been spinning you with misinformation.. they are SURELY hoping to slide you into one of these used cars and make an easy $15000 profit on you.

I would NEVER buy one of these "executive" cars... replace "executive" with "BMW Employee who can beat the crap out of the car" and you have a better idea what you are buying. It is used. It may be used hard. If you are a long term owner (past the warranty) this MAY be a factor.

In fact, at least a real USED car could be CPO warranted and you'd get a 6/100 warranty! These executives you cannot.

Another point, you indicate the pricing on CPOs and New are rather 'straightforward'... Oh man. Either you are being WAY too modest about your negotiating skills, or you will be massively overpaying. Recognize that all the online pricing programs (KBB, edmunds) are high and are tools the auto industry uses to fool people into thinking prices dealers ask are OK..

Also, understand that "CPO" is a meaningless label- all it means is that a used car comes with a 6/100 warranty. DO NOT ASSUME it is a "special" car,. or the dealer has "lovingingly, carefully and with precision, refurbished the car to factory specifications"...dont blindly trust the CPO label would be my message....


Finally, do youself a HUGE favor- read the post above, then sketch out what YOU would pay for YOUR order, exactly as you want it...with those discounts and the very generous $1000 dealer profit...compare that to what your buddy at the dealer is offering. And act accordingly.

GL

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Last edited by ard; 11-24-2012 at 08:47 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:00 AM
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ndabunka ndabunka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCLibby77 View Post
hi all, I am new to BMW and I am looking to get the first for my family. We have settled on the X5 35d and I have a few questions. Leasing is not an option because we drive too many miles so purchase will be for us. We have looked at Certified Preowned and new. pricing negotiations seem to be straight forward on a CPO vehicle or a Brand new zero mile vehicle. but I have a question on the following situation.

A dealer I have been talking to over the past month while looking for what we want and settling on details has recently notified me that he has purchased from auction 2 2012 X5 35d's that were driven in their executive program, all with less than 15,000 miles but will be sold as NEW through the dealership. I he has given me the MSRP for each of them and has said that "generally we can sell these for 10% less than MSRP". My question is where can you start negotiations on this situation where they are really NOT new? Does anyone have experience with this type of deal?

Also, I am very interested in the CPO warranty and where these are being sold as new, the warranty will not extend beyond the factory warranty. If I chose to have one certified to get the extended warranty would I still be able to buy as new and take advantage of the $6K worth of rebates available right now?

Thanks for the help in advance.
TWO things - If they can't be certified it might be due to them not actually being "executive" but rather being LEMON cars. Lemoned BMW's can NEVER have a CPO warranty and BMW dealers aren't allowed to resell them so you often find them from non-BMW dealers. This does not mean that all of them are that way but if it's a non-BMW dealership, you HAVE to be very careful. Another note is that there are a LOT of salvage vehicles coming on the market due to Sandy flooding and not all dealers are as up front as they should be. Many "wash" titles by simply moving the vehicles registration to another state and then re-titling them. Texas is notorious for this abuse so be EXTREMELY careful when considering buying a Texas-titled used vehicle.
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  #8  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:54 PM
ard ard is online now
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Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
TWO things - If they can't be certified it might be due to them not actually being "executive" but rather being LEMON cars. Lemoned BMW's can NEVER have a CPO warranty and BMW dealers aren't allowed to resell them so you often find them from non-BMW dealers. This does not mean that all of them are that way but if it's a non-BMW dealership, you HAVE to be very careful. Another note is that there are a LOT of salvage vehicles coming on the market due to Sandy flooding and not all dealers are as up front as they should be. Many "wash" titles by simply moving the vehicles registration to another state and then re-titling them. Texas is notorious for this abuse so be EXTREMELY careful when considering buying a Texas-titled used vehicle.

I agree that not being 'able' to CPO a car is often a red flag.

But they can only CPO a car that was previoously titled- a used car. So if this car got 15k miles and was never titled to a retail owner, then I am pretty sure they CPO rules prevent CPOing it.

It is pretty easy to determine of the car was previously titled... yes, you can wash prior title brands (lemon, etc) but AFAIK you cannot eliminate prior owners.

Georgia titles are also suspect.
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  #9  
Old 11-24-2012, 05:00 PM
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I would never buy an "Executive" driven car, as how those "executives" take care of them is often as if they did not own them (which they don't). Many years ago I worked for an auto company and you wouldn't believe how people mistreated their "executive" cars. I many cases they let the newly-licensed teenage son drive the vehicle as that way they could avoid the high-cost of having to pay the high cost of insuring a teenager (back when I was in the business, most auto companies were self-insured and the driver of an "executive" vehicle did not pay for their own insurance, as it was included with the use of the vehicle).
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2012, 06:35 PM
JDCLibby77 JDCLibby77 is offline
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Thanks all for this information. I will carefully review all this because I am obviously very uneducated on this topic.
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  #11  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:17 PM
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gresch gresch is offline
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When he says 10% below MSRP, do you mean sticker or invoice? if he means sticker, he's screwing you, if he means invoice, that's a good deal, barring that it's an executive car which I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. Brand new X5 35D's can be had for $500 over INVOICE before incentive deductions like eco-credit etc.
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  #12  
Old 11-25-2012, 04:54 AM
JDCLibby77 JDCLibby77 is offline
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Originally Posted by gresch View Post
When he says 10% below MSRP, do you mean sticker or invoice? if he means sticker, he's screwing you, if he means invoice, that's a good deal, barring that it's an executive car which I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. Brand new X5 35D's can be had for $500 over INVOICE before incentive deductions like eco-credit etc.
He is telling me MSRP, and I KNOW that is a poor deal especially for one with 10-15000 miles.

now, I need some help understanding something. What tool are you guys using to get your "invoice" pricing? I have used bmwconfig and building exactly what I would like the MSRP comes out at 64595 but invoice only shows 59630. if $1000 over invoice is a good deal, then how is 10% off MSRP not a good deal because that would be equivalent to less than invoice shown.

please excuse my novice mindset with BMW.....I MUST be missing the proper Invoice pricing...educate me
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  #13  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:13 AM
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I've recently bought a 2012 X5d that was a service loaner. Loaded with everything except soft closed doors, adaptive steering, and suspension. It had 11k miles on it and I bought it for 49k (sticker 63k) before further BMW credits (example BMW loyalty). It was explain to me by the Sales and Finance Director that BMW allows the dealer to sell a service loaner as a new car and all incentives are taking by the dealer when it is placed for sale (namely the ECO credit). The plus side is I got new car finance rate and the $750 BMW loyalty credit. Don't worry about the truck being "beat to hell". I asked for a VMI before the sale. And will buy an extended warranty in three years. I'm completely satisfied!
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Last edited by DrT; 11-25-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-25-2012, 06:42 AM
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gresch gresch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCLibby77 View Post
He is telling me MSRP, and I KNOW that is a poor deal especially for one with 10-15000 miles.

now, I need some help understanding something. What tool are you guys using to get your "invoice" pricing? I have used bmwconfig and building exactly what I would like the MSRP comes out at 64595 but invoice only shows 59630. if $1000 over invoice is a good deal, then how is 10% off MSRP not a good deal because that would be equivalent to less than invoice shown.

please excuse my novice mindset with BMW.....I MUST be missing the proper Invoice pricing...educate me
My assumption was that he was telling you 10% under MSRP was the final price, with no further deductions for incentives like eco-credit or holiday cash. That being said if the 10% off of MSRP is lower than $500 over invoice, and then applying the eco-credit and holiday cash discounts, you're fine price wise. You can get invoice pricing at a few places like edmunds, costco or bmwconfig.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:53 AM
JDCLibby77 JDCLibby77 is offline
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Originally Posted by gresch View Post
My assumption was that he was telling you 10% under MSRP was the final price, with no further deductions for incentives like eco-credit or holiday cash. That being said if the 10% off of MSRP is lower than $500 over invoice, and then applying the eco-credit and holiday cash discounts, you're fine price wise. You can get invoice pricing at a few places like edmunds, costco or bmwconfig.
ok, I thought it was that easy. in this case their first offer is 10% less than MSRP minus $4500 for the eco credit, minus $1500 for holiday cash would be THEIR idea of my price. My idea is not the same. I am going to go for 15% off MSRP minus the incentives because I don't NEED to buy now, but I would LIKE to buy now. If he would like to "sign up" a new client that WILL return, maybe he will work a litle harder to do so.

Keep in mind, this dealer is 185 miles from my home and the closest BMW dealer is over 102 away.......
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCLibby77 View Post
ok, I thought it was that easy. in this case their first offer is 10% less than MSRP minus $4500 for the eco credit, minus $1500 for holiday cash would be THEIR idea of my price. My idea is not the same. I am going to go for 15% off MSRP minus the incentives because I don't NEED to buy now, but I would LIKE to buy now. If he would like to "sign up" a new client that WILL return, maybe he will work a litle harder to do so.

Keep in mind, this dealer is 185 miles from my home and the closest BMW dealer is over 102 away.......
Typically the MSRP is about 10 to 15 percent higher than the invoice price. So you should be good. What you could use as a tool is find out how long the dealer had the car in inventory. The longer they had the car the more loan interest they pay. Most dealers use these loans and expect to be able to sell the car in a short period of time. That way, they pretty much just pay what is owed and as minimal of interest as possible. This gives the dealer an incentive to sell the car as quickly as possible, even if they have to move it at or below invoice.
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  #17  
Old 11-25-2012, 07:21 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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JDC, those distances are pretty daunting for going to the dealer to fix problems/maintenance. The closest one is about a 4 hour round trip -- and $40 worth of gas. Maybe something with a closer dealer might be more practical -- just look ahead a bit.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:41 AM
JDCLibby77 JDCLibby77 is offline
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That is my BMW option. There is no closer BmW dealership. 4 hr of travel is minimal. I would hope that there wouldn't be that many fixes. I'll have bigger problems if I put "gas" in my 35d.
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  #19  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:32 AM
ard ard is online now
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Originally Posted by JDCLibby77 View Post
ok, I thought it was that easy. in this case their first offer is 10% less than MSRP minus $4500 for the eco credit, minus $1500 for holiday cash would be THEIR idea of my price. My idea is not the same. I am going to go for 15% off MSRP minus the incentives because I don't NEED to buy now, but I would LIKE to buy now. If he would like to "sign up" a new client that WILL return, maybe he will work a litle harder to do so.

Keep in mind, this dealer is 185 miles from my home and the closest BMW dealer is over 102 away.......
people are generally paying 10-12k under MSRP for new cars. This is 'invoice' minus all the incentives one can scoop up, and maybe 500 for the dealer.

Their offer sounds like 10% or, say $6700 off..then minus 4500 minus 1000. so minus 12,200.

this means they are giving you $0 to $2000 for a used (perhaps beat, perhaps issues) with 15,000 miles and (probably) only 50% to 75% of the remaining warranty.

(IMPORTANT- you need to know when the car was punched, or when BMWNA said the warranty started)

Personally there is almost NOTHING they could offer to make me buy it. You are saying 15%...so an extra 3k??? Really??? If someone was trading that car in, the dealer would offer them 40-45k, claiming the value just isnt there.

$5-10k isnt that important to me, that I'd take that risk. 10k over my typical 6-12 year ownership isnt material. Dont get so twisted up about it being "new"...in this case new isnt any kind of advantage AT ALL: 15k miles; Cannot CPO; unknown treatment; loss of 1yr warranty.

They WILL find someone to buy that car...but I find that once people start asking here, they understand the value proposition...but there are many, many buyers out there and - believe it or not- many dont look up car stuff on a computer!



A
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:48 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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  #21  
Old 12-20-2012, 10:40 AM
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Regardless of what a BMW sales persons says; 15K is a USED vehicle. Go to kbb.com and price it for trade-in value less 10% and that's your starting point for the negotiation. Never even listen or even bouther to discuss MSRP start with what the vehicle is worth to you and realize there is no shortage of inventory, just extend your search radius. BTW I picked up a 2006 550/6 with 15K miles on it a couple years back for $27K. MSRP was ~$67K, yes it was 4 years old at the time but still under the initial factory 4/50 waranty and maintenance. Call BMW North America customer service with the VIN of any vehicle you are interested in and they'll review all warranty work done and if that vehicle is eligible for the CPO program. Good luck with your shopping!
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  #22  
Old 12-20-2012, 11:56 AM
ard ard is online now
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^^ Good advice except the part about BMWNA reviewing warranty work with you. Never going to happen. The hiistory of prior work is 'business confidential'. A deawler MIGHT disclose this, but they are not supposed to...

A
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