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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #76  
Old 12-24-2012, 05:13 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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I am going to skip some of the silly things I saw.

The old saying was hp sells cars but torque wins races.

In the old days you had an imbalance of high tq low hp cars. The N20 is not one of them.

Drive on the highway in 6th at 70mph with an n20 and an n52 amd then floor it. Big difference.

My roadster has 100hp more than tq. Its nice and all, but Dropping from 5th to 3rd is nice compared to tipping into 5th. If it was a turbo like the n20 no need for a downship.
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  #77  
Old 12-24-2012, 05:24 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I am going to skip some of the silly things I saw.

The old saying was hp sells cars but torque wins races.

In the old days you had an imbalance of high tq low hp cars. The N20 is not one of them.

Drive on the highway in 6th at 70mph with an n20 and an n52 amd then floor it. Big difference.

My roadster has 100hp more than tq. Its nice and all, but Dropping from 5th to 3rd is nice compared to tipping into 5th. If it was a turbo like the n20 no need for a downship.
The trade off of losing the N/A I6 is, there is no more smooth high revving for us. Of course with N20, high revving is not necessary. But still, a loss is a loss.

Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.
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  #78  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:06 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The trade off of losing the N/A I6 is, there is no more smooth high revving for us. Of course with N20, high revving is not necessary. But still, a loss is a loss.

Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.
Reviews I've read say the N20 loves to rev to redline.
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  #79  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:19 PM
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Reviews I've read say the N20 loves to rev to redline.

Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.
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  #80  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:27 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by jdong View Post
Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.
Because its fun? No one should be really driving for maximum accelleration on the street anyway. My N54 is alo past its peak at 7k but its a blast to go there.
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  #81  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:46 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The trade off of losing the N/A I6 is, there is no more smooth high revving for us. Of course with N20, high revving is not necessary. But still, a loss is a loss.

Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.
It's not. But there is large appeal to having a wave of tq without the need to downshift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdong View Post
Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.
It might not be so simple.

Ok, so power may fall off faster in an N20. But what if the N20 has enough of a power advantage over the N52 that it's fall off at redline equals the N52 at it's peak/

Basically if you study both cars on the same dyno at the same day, you may find that between 0-7000rpms, at NO point does an N52 make more power than an N20.

I am not SURE that's the case, but before we get caughtup in power fall-off, it's something to consider.
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  #82  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:48 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Because its fun? No one should be really driving for maximum accelleration on the street anyway. My N54 is alo past its peak at 7k but its a blast to go there.
I short shift and have even raced people shifting at 3500-4000 in the Roadster. If I red-lined in the first three gears I would not have a license. I hit my 1-2 at 6800 and find I have hit 60 in about 4 seconds from a dig. I have to settle down after that.

It's nice to hop in the 3 the rest of the week and NOT need to downshift and ride the tq.
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  #83  
Old 12-25-2012, 06:55 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I short shift and have even raced people shifting at 3500-4000 in the Roadster. If I red-lined in the first three gears I would not have a license. I hit my 1-2 at 6800 and find I have hit 60 in about 4 seconds from a dig. I have to settle down after that.

It's nice to hop in the 3 the rest of the week and NOT need to downshift and ride the tq.
Speaking of one who has a roadster to fix your aggression, and use the F30 as a daily commuter. You have unintentionally compared it with a Camry or Accord, both of which will do a better job at making your experience with the roadster more memorable.
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  #84  
Old 12-25-2012, 09:10 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Speaking of one who has a roadster to fix your aggression, and use the F30 as a daily commuter. You have unintentionally compared it with a Camry or Accord, both of which will do a better job at making your experience with the roadster more memorable.
No thanks.

No forced induction manual trans setup offered.

Going from the Roadster to the 3, I don't feel sad. I would feel sad to get into a Camry.
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  #85  
Old 12-25-2012, 09:38 AM
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  #86  
Old 12-25-2012, 10:38 AM
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Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.
It is all justified to hit the redline even if the power drops after the peak.

Here is why. The idea is that in the whole process of maximum acceleration, to keep the AVERAGE engine rpm as close as possible on the POWER PEAK.

Of course, it will never happen if you never pass the peak.

Best evidence are in CVT equipped cars. When you mash their throttle, they are programmed to keep the rpm on peak power.
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  #87  
Old 12-25-2012, 11:25 AM
shicobico shicobico is offline
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As far as "driving feel" and balance is concerned:

E30>E21>E46>E36>E90>F30. Ask anyone who has tracked these cars if they would rather take an E90 or even E46 over an E30 to the track. My suspicion is the answer would be no.


But this is a moot point, unless you're buying a track car. If you're looking for a daily driver, with multiple personalities and a good balance of performance, technology and design, I believe the F30 would be the winner hands down.


I missed my E46 the minute I stepped into the E90, but I can't say the same about the E90. I actually can't wait to move on to my F30. I still love my E90, but the F30 just does more stuff, better, with very few noticeable compromise. It suits my evolving needs.


If you think the 3 series has lost it's feel, boy, you should take a ride in the F10. Holy cow! And boy, is cow a fitting description here.
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  #88  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shicobico View Post
As far as "driving feel" and balance is concerned:

E30>E21>E46>E36>E90>F30. Ask anyone who has tracked these cars if they would rather take an E90 or even E46 over an E30 to the track. My suspicion is the answer would be no.

But this is a moot point, unless you're buying a track car. If you're looking for a daily driver, with multiple personalities and a good balance of performance, technology and design, I believe the F30 would be the winner hands down.

I missed my E46 the minute I stepped into the E90, but I can't say the same about the E90. I actually can't wait to move on to my F30. I still love my E90, but the F30 just does more stuff, better, with very few noticeable compromise. It suits my evolving needs.

If you think the 3 series has lost it's feel, boy, you should take a ride in the F10. Holy cow! And boy, is cow a fitting description here.
Precisely.

This E90 vs. F30 "battle" is silly, especially when it comes to handling because the difference between the two is a 2%er at most. An E36 driver would have a seizure in an F30, throw his hands up in despair wondering what BMW has done to the 3 Series. An E90 driver gets into an F30 and says "oh, that feels a little different".

The F30 is a logical, mature progression from the E90. Neither the E90 nor the F30 are anything resembling an E36 or E46. Those that want to hold onto their E90's and skip the F30 can do so, but they're not like some E36 purists back in 2006 doing it for the "right" reasons if you will. E90 owners don't have those kind of performance differentiators to justify that decision.

BJ
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  #89  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
It is all justified to hit the redline even if the power drops after the peak.

Here is why. The idea is that in the whole process of maximum acceleration, to keep the AVERAGE engine rpm as close as possible on the POWER PEAK.

Of course, it will never happen if you never pass the peak.

Best evidence are in CVT equipped cars. When you mash their throttle, they are programmed to keep the rpm on peak power.
No one would hold onto an E90 over an F30 over the type of minutiae you are mentioning, and no one would purchase either an E90 or an F30 as a track car. BMW has moved on.

BJ
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  #90  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:42 PM
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No one would hold onto an E90 over an F30 over the type of minutiae you are mentioning, and no one would purchase either an E90 or an F30 as a track car. BMW has moved on.

BJ
It has nothing to do with track. It has everything to do with fun. The N20 is a dull engine, unfit for a 40-50K$ Bimmer and contributes nothing like a 184HP M54 did. That was a great experience. Now to get the same level of fun of entry-level 3-series of the past, you have to settle for no less than a 335i. +15K$C more here.
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  #91  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:49 PM
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It has nothing to do with track. It has everything to do with fun. The N20 is a dull engine, unfit for a 40-50K$ Bimmer and contributes nothing like a 184HP M54 did. That was a great experience. Now to get the same level of fun of entry-level 3-series of the past, you have to settle for no less than a 335i. +15K$C more here.
The N20 is far from a dull engine. It's not the I6 that's buttery smooth and perfect, but it provides efficiency, all while boosting HP and TRQ numbers. It's also made the car city friendly. I'm an avid e9x fan because the car was just a bit more lively, and the F30 is a bit softer but some are just taking it too far. The N20 is a masterpiece in engineering.

This is coming from a guy who likes naturally aspirated, high revving engines.
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  #92  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:50 PM
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It has nothing to do with track. It has everything to do with fun. The N20 is a dull engine, unfit for a 40-50K$ Bimmer and contributes nothing like a 184HP M54 did. That was a great experience. Now to get the same level of fun of entry-level 3-series of the past, you have to settle for no less than a 335i. +15K$C more here.
Oh, so now you're going to lecture an N20 driver on what is or isn't "fun"? LOL.

Go back to the E90 forum. I'm sure they eat this stuff up over there. You can all tell each other how "fun" it is driving 6 year old luxury cars.

BJ
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  #93  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:58 PM
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Oh, so now you're going to lecture an N20 driver on what is or isn't "fun"? LOL.

Go back to the E90 forum. I'm sure they eat this stuff up over there. You can all tell each other how "fun" it is driving 6 year old luxury cars.

BJ
You know, the F30 isn't all about the 328i. Thanks God, the 335i saves it.
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  #94  
Old 12-25-2012, 01:06 PM
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You know, the F30 isn't all about the 328i. Thanks God, the 335i saves it.
There's another thread that debates the merits of the 328i and the 335i.

This thread is about the E90 vs. the F30.

All of us in F30's once owned E90's and now we're in F30's. Go figure. I know that those of you who hold onto your old cars are yearning for rationale for that decision but you're barking up the wrong tree.

You fall back on the old E46 argument about how they were holding onto a "classic" or a "car that is more to the BMW identity" than the E90. See, they had a point. You don't. The E90 and the F30 are the same damn car, one more modern than the other, that's it. Holding onto an E90 on the grounds that you prefer it is fine, but holding onto it on the grounds that its more of a "true purists" BMW like the E46 owners did, LOLZ, laughable.

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  #95  
Old 12-25-2012, 01:12 PM
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The N20 is far from a dull engine. It's not the I6 that's buttery smooth and perfect, but it provides efficiency, all while boosting HP and TRQ numbers. It's also made the car city friendly. I'm an avid e9x fan because the car was just a bit more lively, and the F30 is a bit softer but some are just taking it too far. The N20 is a masterpiece in engineering.
Enlighten us why the N20 is a "masterpiece" when there are Asian V6 out there that makes more power and cost less annually in fuel, without direct injection of ZF 8-speed. Again, it is no quicker from idle than what it replaces (see 5-60mph from C&D to establish that).
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:16 PM
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You fall back on the old E46 argument about how they were holding onto a "classic" or a "car that is more to the BMW identity" than the E90. See, they had a point. You don't. The E90 and the F30 are the same damn car, one more modern than the other, that's it. Holding onto an E90 on the grounds that you prefer it is fine, but holding onto it on the grounds that its more of a "true purists" BMW like the E46 owners did, LOLZ, laughable.

BJ
Well there is more to it. You sound like if F30 = 328i. Wrong. I never condemned the F30 which is likely to be my next car as a 335i, only the N20 that is not a good fit for a 3-series, specially when you are used to better powetrains.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:27 PM
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Well there is more to it. You sound like if F30 = 328i. Wrong. I never condemned the F30 which is likely to be my next car as a 335i, only the N20 that is not a good fit for a 3-series, specially when you are used to better powetrains.
You don't own an E90 328i nor an F30 328i. I do.

The N20 is a great engine, makes the new F30 328i a much more fun and enthusiastic experience than I ever had in either of my two E90 328i's. You want to debate the 335i's you go right ahead, but for the 328i's there is no contest.

BJ
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  #98  
Old 12-25-2012, 02:04 PM
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Enlighten us why the N20 is a "masterpiece" when there are Asian V6 out there that makes more power and cost less annually in fuel, without direct injection of ZF 8-speed. Again, it is no quicker from idle than what it replaces (see 5-60mph from C&D to establish that).
It's a masterpiece because BMW is able to pull off the 328i being quicker and more efficient, at the same time. Compare that 2.0 turbo 4 to say the one in the ATS. The BMW 4 is simply put an engineering marvel for the reason that BMW was able to cut off 2 cylinders and from the previous gen 3 series and it STILL keeps pace with the old I6 that it replaces. That's the point you're not seeing. I hate how it sounds like a diesel, but that's another topic all together.
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  #99  
Old 12-25-2012, 02:35 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Enlighten us why the N20 is a "masterpiece" when there are Asian V6 out there that makes more power and cost less annually in fuel, without direct injection of ZF 8-speed. Again, it is no quicker from idle than what it replaces (see 5-60mph from C&D to establish that).
You keep repeating yourself yet when I gave all the examples of your failed logic in reply to your examples you skipped over all the nearly irrefutable information I provided. I dispelled your weak 5-60mph advantage and showed you the muti second advantage of the N20 in 0-100 and 3-50-50-70 top gear acceleration.

Your 184hp straight 6 is a dog, it is smooth. I give you that. It does make nice induction sounds. I give you that. It's called being impartial. BUT, just as it is a deal breaker for some to lose out on those things, it's a deal breaker for me and others to have such a low powered base engine in the 328. In the past, the 328 was something I let my wife drive, and let's face it many base 3's from before, today and the future, those are who is driving them.

Instead, the N20 which I showed you FACTUALLY with your own numbers is SECONDS faster in meaningful measurements, and EPA MPG testing, or more realistic and accurate testing(or members who have had N52s and now have N20's), and the fact is you should know that factory forced induction has a lot of room for improved performance while the N52 had next to nothing. That appeals to plenty of people like me. My car will have an exhaust, tune, downpipe and intercooler and net 300+whp while keeping the 30+ MPG I regularly average. PLEASE PLEASE show me 300whp bolt on N52's with no forced induction where drivers indicate averaging 30+mpg.
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  #100  
Old 12-25-2012, 03:13 PM
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Posts: 2,854
Mein Auto: BMW E90 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You don't own an E90 328i nor an F30 328i. I do.

The N20 is a great engine, makes the new F30 328i a much more fun and enthusiastic experience than I ever had in either of my two E90 328i's.

BJ
But you just said that the 3-series is no more for car enthusiasts.
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2007 E90 AW 323i Step | Lowered 1.25"/1" | BMW Performance Exhaust | Debadged | Scangauge II | Style 162 18" & 161 17" wheels & rear 15mm spacers

Last edited by Saintor; 12-25-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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