As 2013 Approaches so Does the growing choices in the Luxury Crossover Market

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

The RX isn't crap. It is good for what it is. There's a reason they sell so many year after year. The X5 wouldn't exist if the Lexus didn't come around.

The RX sells on value, just like the MDX and JX.

We test drove it first when looking for cars for my wife.

The RX should be compared to the X3. Its capacity is nowhere close to that of the Q7 or X5, and performance is down right embarrassing. The Cayenne has less cargo capacity but more seating room, and obviously destroys it in performance. The RX 450 is barely under 8 seconds in 0-60. I believe part of being a luxury crossover means also performing. Otherwise there are some fancy minivans that people should consider...I don't mean for this to be an argument. These are just my opinions on what a luxury crossover should be.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

^yes, I've read everything about the RLX. We don't know for sure what's going to be in the MDX yet


It's not BMW, it's the owners. We have been accustomed to owning the cutting edge. Unlike Acura owners, BMW can't just pawn off old technology, like a decade old J series V6 and expect it to sell, while being based off an Accord. Just doesn't work like that. If we want new tech, we have to give up some reliability to do so. Once Acura starts together off their high horse and realizes the whole brand is a joke, they'll get around to innovating, instead of falling helplessly behind.

The MDX is a decent car for the price. Perfect for budget luxury seekers. It has a terrible interior and the engine is outdated. Let's not forget the pathetic fuel economy. And I'm speaking from experience. A relative has one and I've driven it so many times.

The MDX will be similar, the current model is pretty much a tall RL, although the SH-AWD was dumbed down slightly. While in the RL the rear torque was consistantly variable between the rear wheels, it was fixed in the MDX. Probably a nod towards the fact that most people in SUVs don't go corner carving.

The RL was an amazing car (I owned one for 6 years). It would give a 5 series a run for it's money (from a handling perspective). As a matter of fact I believe it beat out a 5 series in a comparison of AWD sedans, although the Bimmer was a 528xi. You had to really toss it for the true handling characteristics to shine. It was a performance AWD system first, and a foul weather aid second. Everybody else jumped on the torque vectoring bandwagon AFTER Acura introduced SH-AWD.

The problem is that most people usually equate AWD with foul weather, and unlike BMW and other luxury car manufacturers, if you buy an Acura and don't want AWD, your only choices are FWD models, and the RL was ONLY an AWD vehicle.

I disagree that Acura pawns off old technology. Look aty the original NSX. THat was a cutting edge exotic that had the reliability of a Civic. It put Ferarri on notice. I read an automotive article recently that said the reason why Ferrari and other exotics are more comfortable, driveable and more reliable (relatively speaking) is because of the NSX. That technology then trickled DOWN, not up to other models. All of the newer technology in the Honda family starts in the Acuras and trickles down to the Accords and Civics, and guess what? Those Hondas allow Acura to offer value.

I fully expected we were going to get an MDX when we finally got rid of our 2004 Land Cruiser, but my wife just didn't like the interior. We got the X5 as a CPO because she like the styling. I don't think I would have ever paid $64K for the vehicle new. Having owned it and driven it for a while now, I am impressed. I appreciate the handling, responsiveness acceleration and "solidness" (is that a word?) of the vehicle, but if I have to start paying big money for repairs, I'm dumping it. Acuras have spoiled me from that respect.

I will also contend that Acura is the reason for the recent improvements in iDrive. The biggest complaint about iDrive when first introduced was that you had to search through menus for simple tasks. When the 2nd gen RL was introduced in 2005 (actually fall of '04), it came with an iDrive-like controller, but they improved it with redundant buttons for Cllimate, Audio, Menu items, etc.. Imagine my surprise when I purchased my 2011 X5 and it had a similar setup than what was in my RL.

The RX450h is rated at 30 city - 28 freeway mileage. Lexus says it will reach 0-60 in 7.4 seconds. Along with the non hybrid version the RX is a crossover that is a huge seller and shares the platform with the very popular Highlander (a three rower) that also has a hybrid version for those inclined to that sort of thing. It is a "soft roader" like most of the cross overs. This year's RX a 'sport' version is offered with an 8 speed transmission and a stiffer suspension. OTOH the GX460 is NOT a "soft roader" it it an honest to goodness full frame truck based SUV that shares platform with the very capable Toyota 4-Runner. It does not compete with the X5, but rather with the LR and Jeep GC. Both the GX and the LX versions are true off road capable trucks, wrapped in luxo trim and right at or near the top of their respective class. The RX is a very comfortable luxo cruiser that has found a spot in the hearts of the folks that used to drive Buicks and Packards back in the day.

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

The MDX will be similar, the current model is pretty much a tall RL, although the SH-AWD was dumbed down slightly. While in the RL the rear torque was consistantly variable between the rear wheels, it was fixed in the MDX. Probably a nod towards the fact that most people in SUVs don't go corner carving.

The RL was an amazing car (I owned one for 6 years). It would give a 5 series a run for it's money (from a handling perspective). As a matter of fact I believe it beat out a 5 series in a comparison of AWD sedans, although the Bimmer was a 528xi. You had to really toss it for the true handling characteristics to shine. It was a performance AWD system first, and a foul weather aid second. Everybody else jumped on the torque vectoring bandwagon AFTER Acura introduced SH-AWD.

The problem is that most people usually equate AWD with foul weather, and unlike BMW and other luxury car manufacturers, if you buy an Acura and don't want AWD, your only choices are FWD models, and the RL was ONLY an AWD vehicle.

I disagree that Acura pawns off old technology. Look aty the original NSX. THat was a cutting edge exotic that had the reliability of a Civic. It put Ferarri on notice. A read an automotive article recently that said the reason why Ferrari and other exotics are more comfortable, driveable and more reliable (relatively speaking) is because of the NSX. That technology then trickled DOWN, not up to other models. All of the newer technology in the Honda family starts in the Acuras and trickles down to the Accords and Civics, and guess what? Those Honda's allow Acura to offer value.

I fully expected we were going to get an MDX when we finally got rid of our 2004 Land Cruiser, but my wife just didn't like the interior. We got the X5 as a CPO because she like the styling. I don't think I would have ever paid $64K for the vehicle new. Having owned it and driven it for a while now, I am impressed, but if I have to start paying big money for repairs, I'm dumping it. Acuras have spoiled me from that respect.

I will also contend that Acura is the reason for the recent improvements in iDrive. The biggest complaint about iDrive when first introduced was that you had to search through menus for simple tasks. When the 2nd gen RL was introduced in 2005 (actually fall of '04), it came with an iDrive-like controller, but they improved it with redundant buttons for Cllimate, Audio, Menu items, etc.. Imagine my surprise when I purchased my 2011 X5 and it had a similar setup than what was in my RL.

I had to step away for a minute and wasn't able to finish my thoughts.

Back now.

I will agree that the interiors have seemed to take a step back with Acura. My RL was replaced by a 2012 Cadillac CTS coupe. I never thought I would say that the interior in the CTS comes pretty close, if not matching the interior of my RL with respect to fit & finish. This is more about how the domestics have gotten better. The interiors in the newest TL, MDX, etc do seem cheaper. I think Honda & Toyota have gotten a bit complacent. Just read up on the criticism of the latest Camry, the Civic, and even a recent post in this forum on the Lexus GX. These cars will run forever, but the bar has been raised and you need more than just reliability now to compete.

My criticism of Acura (you see I'm not just a fanboy) is that they need to figure out who or what they want to be. Just look back at their tag lines from the past

Precision crafted performance (their best one in my opinion)
Some things are worth the price
a couple of others I can't remember
Advance (their latest that nods towards their focus on technology)

If they want to be considered one of the big boys with BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, et al, they have to offer a bonafide RWD based sedan. I don't care how awesome SH-AWD or SH-SH-AWD (hate those acronymns) is, some people just don't want or need AWD, and to be considered seriously among the luxury performance segment you have to offer an RWD vehicle. You also have to offer a V8 option. Even though most people may not opt for one, you have to have one. That is why the NSX was never taken seriously even though it had performance numbers at the time comparable with the other exotics. If they don't do those two things, they will be a niche marque that will be used as a testbed for technology that will eventually trickle down to the rest of the Honda line-up.

In addition, Acura designers need to get their heads out of their behinds. Who ever came up with that beak needs to have his/her design school credentials revoked, and whoever signed off on that design from corporate needs to be fired. They have softened the beak a bit, but from what I've seen of the RLX, they still don't get it. That's my main reason for jumping ship from Acura after almost 20 years.

Despite those criticisms, they need to make no apologies to the Germans for their technology prowness. The difference is that while the Germans introduce technology. Honda/Acura introduces technology that works consistently.

Lastly, BMW owners tend to be more forgiving of technology flaws because I venture to guess most of the owners lease their vehicles. You have a much different perspective on reliability when you are turning your car over every two or three years, never having to pay for maintenance or repairs. I trust your opinions will change when you put well over 100K miles (160K on our last Land Cruiser) and have to pay (or not pay when it comes to Toyota/Honda) for those repairs.

Perfect for budget luxury seekers. there are great deal of buyers that will have that as their priority...MDX will be safe , reliable and boring and will sell plenty..

Originally Posted by Chucktown

We test drove it first when looking for cars for my wife.

The RX should be compared to the X3. Its capacity is nowhere close to that of the Q7 or X5, and performance is down right embarrassing. The Cayenne has less cargo capacity but more seating room, and obviously destroys it in performance. The RX 450 is barely under 8 seconds in 0-60. I believe part of being a luxury crossover means also performing. Otherwise there are some fancy minivans that people should consider...I don't mean for this to be an argument. These are just my opinions on what a luxury crossover should be.

The RX is more spacious than the X3. They never make claims about it being a performance SUV. It is a fantastic DD for what it is. And the hybrid gets 30 mpg combined. No other SUV (not even the various diesel models) can match its economy.

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

The RL was an amazing car (I owned one for 6 years). It would give a 5 series a run for it's money (from a handling perspective). As a matter of fact I believe it beat out a 5 series in a comparison of AWD sedans, although the Bimmer was a 528xi. You had to really toss it for the true handling characteristics to shine. It was a performance AWD system first, and a foul weather aid second. Everybody else jumped on the torque vectoring bandwagon AFTER Acura introduced SH-AWD.

Mitusbishi and Nissan had torque vectoring in their AWD systems years before Acura.

The RL was a terrible car. There's a reason why no one bought it. Didn't look premium at all. Very generic looks. Can be mistaken for an Accord. There was a good Fifth Gear from back in the day when the Honda Legend (what the RL is called elsewhere) getting smoked by the competition.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Mitusbishi and Nissan had torque vectoring in their AWD systems years before Acura.

The RL was a terrible car. There's a reason why no one bought it. Didn't look premium at all. Very generic looks. Can be mistaken for an Accord. There was a good Fifth Gear from back in the day when the Honda Legend (what the RL is called elsewhere) getting smoked by the competition.

This is where you lose credibility with me. When the RL was introduced it did very well against the competition. The problem though is that the competition got better and Acura never evolved the RL.

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

I disagree that Acura pawns off old technology. Look aty the original NSX. THat was a cutting edge exotic that had the reliability of a Civic. It put Ferarri on notice. I read an automotive article recently that said the reason why Ferrari and other exotics are more comfortable, driveable and more reliable (relatively speaking) is because of the NSX. That technology then trickled DOWN, not up to other models. All of the newer technology in the Honda family starts in the Acuras and trickles down to the Accords and Civics, and guess what? Those Hondas allow Acura to offer value.

The NSX came out almost 20 years ago. That company isn't the same company now. The upcoming NSX will have a derivative of the same SH-AWD hybrid system and be based of an Accord. Imagine if Audi made their R8 based off a Passat. Pathetic.

Now we're looking at the company that bases their entry level model on a Civic (ILX) and gets lackluster fuel economy. We're talking about the company that uses the exact same Accord platform in all their cars and uses the same J series V6s and K series 4 cylinders from the Honda lineup. Both completely outdated. If anything, Acura has no clue on how to run a company anymore. The new Accord debuted LED headlight technology in the lineup. Before ANY Acura product. Same with the new dual screen NAV setup. Came first in the 13 Accord. It's going into the new RLX and MDX. The relationship between Honda and Acura is way too close. Same with Infiniti.

Do you see Audi putting MMI in VWs? Hell no.

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

I will also contend that Acura is the reason for the recent improvements in iDrive. The biggest complaint about iDrive when first introduced was that you had to search through menus for simple tasks. When the 2nd gen RL was introduced in 2005 (actually fall of '04), it came with an iDrive-like controller, but they improved it with redundant buttons for Cllimate, Audio, Menu items, etc.. Imagine my surprise when I purchased my 2011 X5 and it had a similar setup than what was in my RL.

This is a joke. BMW, MB, Audi, even Lexus don't look at Acua as competition. iDrive evolved due to common criticisms and become very similar to MMI (which had redundant buttons for everything). The Acura setup in the MDX is finicky and not very intuitive at all, like MMI, iDrive, Remote Touch are.

Acura is going to a stupid dual screen setup with a lower touchscreen now. Just as every other luxury brand is moving towards a centralized unit.

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

I will agree that the interiors have seemed to take a step back with Acura. My RL was replaced by a 2012 Cadillac CTS coupe. I never thought I would say that the interior in the CTS comes pretty close, if not matching the interior of my RL with respect to fit & finish. This is more about how the domestics have gotten better. The interiors in the newest TL, MDX, etc do seem cheaper. I think Honda & Toyota have gotten a bit complacent. Just read up on the criticism of the latest Camry, the Civic, and even a recent post in this forum on the Lexus GX. These cars will run forever, but the bar has been raised and you need more than just reliability now to compete.

.

Lexus knows what they're doing. The new GS has class leading interior and now is the driver's choice in that class. Acura has been on a decline. Lexus? Nope. Toyota? Nope too. Go look at the new Avalon. Embarrasses most Acuras these days.

Cadillac is doing super well these days. The new ATS is an awesome car.

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

I

Despite those criticisms, they need to make no apologies to the Germans for their technology prowness. The difference is that while the Germans introduce technology. Honda/Acura introduces technology that works consistently.
.

What technology? Acura still has no engines with direct injection and they've given up on forced induction after the last gen RDX. They JUST released cars with a 6 speed automatic transmission. Just when even everyone else has moved onto 8 speeds (even Hyundai)!

My gripe is that they are becoming too close to Honda for their own good. They dump the fantastic last gen RDX (drove like a sports sedan) and came out with a CRV based piece of crap without SHAWD? Really? Giving up your best technology to move to a front biased part time AWD system?

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Mitusbishi and Nissan had torque vectoring in their AWD systems years before Acura.

The RL was a terrible car. There's a reason why no one bought it. Didn't look premium at all. Very generic looks. Can be mistaken for an Accord. There was a good Fifth Gear from back in the day when the Honda Legend (what the RL is called elsewhere) getting smoked by the competition.

RL versus , 530, STS-V, Jag S-type, Audi A6 4.2 Quattro, MB E350, Lexus GS, Infiniti M45

RL comes in second to the Infiniti that was an 8 cylinder.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

In this one the RL comes in first against similar competition

http://www.insideline.com/acura/rl/2...ison-test.html

RL comes in first again

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/rl/2005...ison-test.html

There's more, but I think I made my point.

In the end the RL didn't sell again because it it was an AWD only car, and it wasn't actively marketed due to well know infighting between Acura NA and Japan (where the RL was designed and built).

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

RL versus , 530, STS-V, Jag S-type, Audi A6 4.2 Quattro, MB E350, Lexus GS, Infiniti M45

RL comes in second to the Infiniti that was an 8 cylinder.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

In this one the RL comes in first against similar competition

http://www.insideline.com/acura/rl/2...ison-test.html

RL comes in first again

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/rl/2005...ison-test.html

There's more, but I think I made my point.

In the end the RL didn't sell again because it it was an AWD only car, and it wasn't actively marketed due to well know infighting between Acura NA and Japan (where the RL was designed and built).

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55534169,d.dmQ

It didn't sell well because it looked like a generic Honda and overpriced. Why would someone spend that much money on one when you could get an A6, 5 series, etc? It didn't offer anything special besides a trick AWD system.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

The NSX came out almost 20 years ago. That company isn't the same company now. The upcoming NSX will have a derivative of the same SH-AWD hybrid system and be based of an Accord. Imagine if Audi made their R8 based off a Passat. Pathetic.

Now we're looking at the company that bases their entry level model on a Civic (ILX) and gets lackluster fuel economy. We're talking about the company that uses the exact same Accord platform in all their cars and uses the same J series V6s and K series 4 cylinders from the Honda lineup. Both completely outdated. If anything, Acura has no clue on how to run a company anymore. The new Accord debuted LED headlight technology in the lineup. Before ANY Acura product. Same with the new dual screen NAV setup. Came first in the 13 Accord. It's going into the new RLX and MDX. The relationship between Honda and Acura is way too close. Same with Infiniti.

Do you see Audi putting MMI in VWs? Hell no.

DI injection is coming out in the RLX, albeit late to the party. Surprisingly I agree with pretty much everything you have said here and in the following post. They need to do a better job of differentiating themselves from Honda.

To be clear, I only said that Acura improved iDrive. I didn't say that they were viewed as competition.

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

Lastly, BMW owners tend to be more forgiving of technology flaws because I venture to guess most of the owners lease their vehicles. You have a much different perspective on reliability when you are turning your car over every two or three years, never having to pay for maintenance or repairs. I trust your opinions will change when you put well over 100K miles (160K on our last Land Cruiser) and have to pay (or not pay when it comes to Toyota/Honda) for those repairs.

You bring up a valid point, but the sales numbers sing a different song. Audi, BMW, Lexus, MB outsell Acura worldwide year after year. Why? Because they kept up with the times.

Acura was the first Japanese luxury brand, but now they are, by far, the worst. Infiniti has V8s, RWD, among other things. Lexus has taken over this segment of Japanese luxury brands.

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

DI injection is coming out in the RLX, albeit late to the party.

Honda introduced DI first with the new base I4 in the Accord. Before Acura again

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55534169,d.dmQ

It didn't sell well because it looked like a generic Honda and overpriced. Why would someone spend that much money on one when you could get an A6, 5 series, etc? It didn't offer anything special besides a trick AWD system.

It's styling could have been more daring, but I will argue that Most cars in this price range do not offer ground breaking styling. As for price, if you optioned out a BMW or Mercedes with all of the options that came standard with the RL ($50K MSRP), they would have been well into the $60k range.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

You bring up a valid point, but the sales numbers sing a different song. Audi, BMW, Lexus, MB outsell Acura worldwide year after year. Why? Because they kept up with the times.

Acura was the first Japanese luxury brand, but now they are, by far, the worst. Infiniti has V8s, RWD, among other things. Lexus has taken over this segment of Japanese luxury brands.

Again agree. Did you read ALL of my posts completely?

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

Again agree. Did you read ALL of my posts completely?

lol, it's tough because I sent my MacBook in to get repaired. Trying to reply to all of this on an iPad is a pain in the ass. Sorry

Originally Posted by GoHawks63

It's styling could have been more daring, but I will argue that Most cars in this price range do not offer ground breaking technology. As for price, if you optioned out a BMW or Mercedes with all of the options that came standard with the RL ($50K MSRP), they would have been well into the $60k range.

Same ground breaking technology that Acura seems to be abandoning for something else. That being said, the E60 offered class leading driving dynamics and the the A6 offered an interior better than anyone else in that class.

Of course, price really doesn't once you start getting into this territory. The E class and 5 series dominate this segment no matter what and will outsell any Lexus, Infiniti, etc. People buy what they like, and that usually isn't an Acura

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

lol, it's tough because I sent my MacBook in to get repaired. Trying to reply to all of this on an iPad is a pain in the ass. Sorry

Doing the same. Lol. I corrected my previous post as I mistyped. I meant to say "most cars in this price range don't offer ground breaking STYLING". I said incorrectly typed TECHNOLOGY.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Same ground breaking technology that Acura seems to be abandoning for something else. That being said, the E60 offered class leading driving dynamics and the the A6 offered an interior better than anyone else in that class.

Of course, price really doesn't once you start getting into this territory. The E class and 5 series dominate this segment no matter what and will outsell any Lexus, Infiniti, etc. People buy what they like, and that usually isn't an Acura

As I said, I mistyped TECHNOLOGY instead of STYLING.

In the end I agree that Acura has lost it's way. My point originally is that the MDX has as much right to be on the list, especially compared to the Lexus RX. It offers better performance, and better value.

I agree with BMW keeping up with the tech times.

However I seem to be fearing the fact, that BMW has reached a kind of standstill in their engine department. Its not to say they are horrible, since their volume numbers clearly show that they have a winning formula.



BMW does offer a wide range of engine options, Diesel and Petrol, however the common theme is Maximizing efficiency and performance. Their formula involves Forced induction, digitizing every vehicle system, different profile maps for each system (think eco pro), and couple extra cogs.

I`m hoping they also include

-maybe an Active Hybrid gearing towards performance.
-a next generation x-drive system with more capability such as torque vectoring (All the Ms have it).

It would really put them at the top!

Thats why I personally am looking forward to the new power train enhancements from ACURA, since they seem to have understood that their lacking in that department. The tech interface, which I'm guessing is similar to the RLX, is not as attractive, but im guessing is functional.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

^ why would the X5 only offer petrol based engines? The diesel is coming and the dealers already know this. There would be a large number of pissed owners here and on xoutpost if no diesel came of the next gen.

Petroleum is the basis for diesel. That includes diesel and gas/petrol

And we don't know much about the SH-AWD hybrid system yet. Audi has a similar system in the works also. Comparing the Treg hybrids system to Acuras upcoming system is poor.

I wanted to first clear up the air, that AUDI is a big group. It although markets alot of brands, most of the powertrain, and component designs are modular and used through out the brands in different guises. Last time I checked the basic powertrain, door shells (added bonus) in the t-egg and the Cayenne are similar. the Hybrid system is also quite similar, except their tuned in software (differently). The VW is a bit less athletic then the porsche, but your also driving VW vs Porsche. The reason I mentioned the hybrid comparison is to compare the VW, as most consider the VW a fair equal to the Acura in price and value. The SH-AWD is upcoming, so we can wait for the reviews to trickle in, but want to first feel how the currently available AUDI group lineup (aka porsche and vw) hybrids perform.

And there are no current Audi hybrids, except the upcoming Q5 and A8 hybrids. Again, the hybrids are pretty useless with diesels going into every model of the Audi lineup soon.

-See above