People Switched from E90 to F30 - Please comment

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

The M-Sport model, I think looks the best. Even if it does sorta water down the M Badge.

Like I said, BMW has been doing M-Sport and M-Tech packages for 20+ years now.

The M-Sport does not have any exterior M badges(aside from the wheels which are happily gone from my car).

My friend's '99 E36 328is almost indistinguishable from a same year M3.

You could even get an M appearance package on the 318ti.

I find much more offense to M badges being put on by people.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No one cares about the minutiae that your spewing. Not a single F30 will/won't be sold because of fractional 0-60 times or gas mileage. What matters has nothing to do with any of that. BMW has built a great new car that succeeds because of the sum of all of its parts, all of its features. It isn't about a single one 'thing'. It's a fantastic package- performance, style, luxury. You can't find fault with any of that, so move on.

BJ

I wonder how many posts there will be about the F30 when the F31, F32 and F33 come out?

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I took pictures, showing my average MPH, what mode I was in, and that it was 60-70% highway.

I own the car, I drive the car, I state factual events...

Am I stating LONG term 30+ tanks. Nope. I have had plenty of 28mpg tanks. The ownership average over my 5k, is likely between 28-29.5mpg. 60-70% of all my driving is highway at 80mph in Sport.

Here came finally the string attached; now 30mpg isn't typical.

With the 22/34mpg EPA, if you drive 70% highway (vast majority as I said), no problem with a 30mpg. (22 + .7 x 12). You can achieve practically the same thing with an automatic 335i (23/33) or a 2011 528i (22/32).

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Not a single F30 will/won't be sold because of fractional 0-60 times or gas mileage.

Don't believe it one minute. Gadget lovers enjoy bragging on selective features, even if they don't benefit really from them.

Originally Posted by Saintor

Here came finally the string attached; now 30mpg isn't typical.

With the 22/34mpg EPA, if you drive 70% highway (vast majority as I said), no problem with a 30mpg. (22 + .7 x 12). You can achieve practically the same thing with an automatic 335i (23/33) or a 2011 528i (22/32).



Don't believe it one minute. Gadget lovers enjoy bragging on selective features, even if they don't benefit really from them.

When did I say anything about typical and not typical, when did I represent anything other than 60-70% highway. I have had plenty of 30+ tanks, plenty of 28.5 too, none any worse. My average after 5k of owning the car is ABOVE 28.5, but less than 30. That's excellent.

Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.

Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

When did I say anything about typical and not typical, when did I represent anything other than 60-70% highway. I have had plenty of 30+ tanks, plenty of 28.5 too, none any worse. My average after 5k of owning the car is ABOVE 28.5, but less than 30. That's excellent.

Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.

Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.

Well if you are so "exhausted", but don't you just take a walk.... after all you started to reply to me, not the contrary.

The point here (since you are so exhausted that you fail to understand) is that technically speaking, the N20 or any 4-cyl. turbo is not required to achieve this level of fuel economy and output. Modern 6 cyl. will do it, and adding insult to the injury, cost less to run while being more powerful.

Originally Posted by Saintor

Well if you are so "exhausted", but don't you just take a walk.... after all you started to reply to me, not the contrary.

The point here (since you are so exhausted that you fail to understand) is that technically speaking, the N20 or any 4-cyl. turbo is not required to achieve this level of fuel economy and output. Modern 6 cyl. will do it, and adding insult to the injury, cost less to run while being more powerful.

I wanted to see this one out, see if you could be reasoned with and not just label you a troll.

It IS exhausting.

But entertaining.

Your points are really silly to me.

Fact is, BMW COULD have gotten the same efficiency as the N20 in a variety of other configurations including a straight 6. However, what about time frame, investment, etc.

But they DID NOT, they made the N20. So you can stay in your corner and talk to yourself about what could have been, or see the light and join reality and move on with your life. You keep bringing up cost to run...god, go buy a non luxury car if you are so concerned about not running premium. BMWs have been running premium for a long time, 4 cylinder or not, forced induction or not. Once again, if one of your talking points is disputed from E90 vs F30, you bring it back to something like operating costs of Japanese V-6s.

I am going to summarize all this stupidity.

The N20 gets 20% or better MPG than the N52 in both fuelly.com and owners real world experience

The N20 is quite a bit faster than the N52 in meaningful ways such as 0-60,0-100, 30-50 and 50-70. In rolling start 5-60, the N52 seems to have a 2 tenth advantage.

The N20 has no exhaust note and does not have much of an induction sound compared to the N52.

BMW could have done a variety of things instead of the N20 but DIDN'T.

The N20 COULD be compared to a variety of cars outside it's class including Camrys and Accord V-6s that can run on regular. If you want one, go buy on.

Nice and tidy.

So there you go.

Don't buy an F30. Don't buy an N55 one and think you are superior. All your talk about Accords and Camrys, go buy an automatic or CVT Japanese appliance car for $30k+ and remind yourself how much better off you are each time you save $1.00 a fill up by putting in 89. Please blow up their message boards while your at it.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I

Fact is, BMW COULD have gotten the same efficiency as the N20 in a variety of other configurations including a straight 6. However, what about time frame, investment, etc.

But they DID NOT, they made the N20.

And that's a big mistake. Too much was lost in the process. BMW has replaced a fun engine with a dull one. Wasn't BMW all about pleasure?

Comparing the F30 328i exclusively to an E90 328i is another mistake.

Yes, the Asians teach a lesson in efficiency/technology to the Germans, whatever your condescending tone against them. No I won't buy one, thank you. I am glad that Mercedes still offer the V6 in the C300, revised with direct injection for 2013.

The N20 is quite a bit faster than the N52 in meaningful ways such as 0-60,0-100, 30-50 and 50-70. In rolling start 5-60, the N52 seems to have a 2 tenth advantage.

0-.... are irrelevant, as the top gear accelerations. Again was the last time you prerev your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? Oh wait, you answered to that. The answer was *Never*. Just numbers for kids to brag about.

In the real life, if you mash a F30 328i's throttle from idle, chances are that an old E90 328i will pass you. On a racetrack, the F30 N20 will eat the E90 N52 for lunch. Less obvious on streets, as I showed.

But I don't really care which one has best numbers, my biggest gripe about the N20 is the feel, should I say lack of feel. You said that you would spend more to get a 6-cyl. if they offered it for a few 100$, so don't play the innocent and state here that the N20 is the wonder of them all, the best solution in a Bimmer (it is not) .

On the positive side, at least BMW offers a 335i with a great 6 cylinder engine that gets similar fuel economy at around $3000 more for an equivalent set of options. The Audi world I came from required you to shell out almost $10k to go from the A4 to S4, trade in the ZF 8HP for a shuffle-happy DCT on hills, and also lose a few mpg city and highway in the process.

Originally Posted by Saintor

Comparing the F30 328i exclusively to an E90 328i is another mistake.

LOOK AT THE THREAD TITLE. You are just highlighting how much of your dribble is off topic and reaching.

I am glad that Mercedes still offer the V6 in the C300, revised with direct injection for 2013.

Great, I hope you start stalking Fuelly.com for the stastics. Money says that the C300 will not match the N20 in efficiency and the performance of the C350 barely matches the N20, the C300 will not match the N20. Oh yeah, the C300 I bet requires the same grade of fuel as the N20.

0-.... are irrelevant, as the top gear accelerations. Again was the last time you prerev your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? Oh wait, you answered to that. The answer was *Never*. Just numbers for kids to brag about.

In the real life, if you mash a F30 328i's throttle from idle, chances are that an old E90 328i will pass you. On a racetrack, the F30 N20 will eat the E90 N52 for lunch. Less obvious on streets, as I showed.

Again, only YOU are saying those figures are irrelevant, you are talking to yourself. According to you in real life, mash the throttle from idle and an N52 will pass you? How so? 5-60, there is an advantage according to you(one which can be disproved just by tires being the same size) of .2, but the N20 picks up so much steam so quickly, the N20 would pull past the N52 after that BRIEF initial lead. I also track my cars, auto-x, track days, and drag strips, I also modify them. I have so much more leverage to talk about what I know then you who seems to bench race/magazine race ad-nausiem.

But I don't really care which one has best numbers, my biggest gripe about the N20 is the feel, should I say lack of feel. You said that you would spend more to get a 6-cyl. if they offered it for a few 100$, so don't play the innocent and state here that the N20 is the wonder of them all, the best solution in a Bimmer (it is not) .

How am I playing innocent? I indulged you in your game of make believe, that if I could have anything, it would have been a smaller FI straight 6. The N20 is the wonder of them all in regards to base engines offered in the entry level lux class...I even went through them engine by engine. You skip past that and bring up some other trivial point.

Oh my god. He writes all in bold now. He *mad*.

I even went through them engine by engine.

No you didn't. If you thought you did, then you failed. Your BS is not good enough to counter the facts. There are plenty of good reasons to own a F30. Unfortunately, a N20 is not one of them. Would be at home in a Jetta. For the rest, the F30 is just fine.... as a 335i.

Originally Posted by Saintor

Oh my god. He writes all in bold now. He *mad*.



No you didn't. If you thought you did, then you failed. Your BS is not good enough to counter the facts. There are plenty of good reasons to own a F30. Unfortunately, a N20 is not one of them. Would be at home in a Jetta. For the rest, the F30 is just fine.... as a 335i.

I replied in bold since it was within your quote, it's much easier to read my additions that way.

My BS is not good enough to counter the facts, again-who says? You have no authority to say so

I will copy and paste it again, the base car engines in the entry level lux segment:

"So in the proper segment that the 3 series competes in....

IS=out of date, base engine 2.5L V-6 is a dog
ATS=handling/steering aside, the 2.0T is not as smooth as the N20, makes about the same power though claims to have much more, and weights 50-100lbs more than the 328(low weight claim for the ATS is low optioned 2.5).
G37=This is the bang for the buck winner. The 2.5L was dropped. The G is old and the Q V-6 is known to be a bit thrashy and in some ways is faster than the N20, others not. The MPG advantage of the N20 is LARGE. But for a $299 lease, the G37 gives nearly 335 levels of performance to value shoppers
C250=The N20 is far more powerful and offers greater efficiency. The C350 BARELY equals the N20 in terms of performance. Sad.
A4=The Torque rich 2.0TSI is the best competing 4 cylinder in many ways. It is quite underrated just like the N20. The N20 still has a slight edge.
S60=Basically a FWD car with a odd 5 cylinder. Not quite competitive here.
(I left out Acura-nothing anymore competitive than what is already listed BTW)

So there you have it. BMW is out to make money and to be competitive. Fact is, the N20 F30 is VERY class competitive if not class leading."

Please, show me how I FAILED at comparing base engines in the entry-level luxury class. I dare you.

I think its been mentioned here but my first two impressions between my ownership of an E90 335i and now an F30 335i - and granted, I haven't had the E90 in a while, so this is just my poor memory, but what strikes me. I'm curious who agrees or not...

1) cockpit feel. The controls of the car and the displays - from NAV to HUD, all give me more of a wrapped-in kind of feeling than I remember having with my E90. The materials aren't even as nice (I don't think) when individually assessed - but when taken overall the feel is amazing, even with the chassis so large under me. When I sat in the E90 I don't remember it feeling quite as form-fitted as my F30 feels. Does anyone agree?

2) transmission. The 8AT is tight. Also, the steering, while disconnected, is precise. Going further than the AT, the two seem to combine to give me a very aim-and-shoot kind of feeling that I'm loving. It is a bit electronic and removed but also rewarding in its own right. Kind of best-of-class for fly-by-wire. Thoughts?

Call me nuts but I actually like the feel of the F30 steering compared to the E90. The 2011 328i I've driven was a bit too sports car like for my taste as a daily driver. Parking the car is like wrestling a dead alligator, and when driving on imperfect highway pavement, the steering transmits so much road feel that it's massaging my arms.

The F30 steering might be mute but it is direct and accurate.

Originally Posted by akaMomo

I think its been mentioned here but my first two impressions between my ownership of an E90 335i and now an F30 335i - and granted, I haven't had the E90 in a while, so this is just my poor memory, but what strikes me. I'm curious who agrees or not...

1) cockpit feel. The controls of the car and the displays - from NAV to HUD, all give me more of a wrapped-in kind of feeling than I remember with the E90. The materials aren't even as nice I don't think when individually assessed but overall the feel is amazing, even with the chassis so large under me. I sat in the other car and it wasn't all quite as form fitted as this feels. Does anyone agree?

I understand exactly what you're talking about. My E60 had the "in the cockpit" feel. It was one of the things I loved about that car. I was so disappointed when it was time to sell it that the F10 had lost it. That "feel" was one of the reasons I chose the E60 over the E90 in the first place. I never could have been happy with the E90 for a lot of reasons. Fortunately the F30 seems to correct almost everyone of the things I did not like about the previous generation.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

When did I say anything about typical and not typical, when did I represent anything other than 60-70% highway. I have had plenty of 30+ tanks, plenty of 28.5 too, none any worse. My average after 5k of owning the car is ABOVE 28.5, but less than 30. That's excellent.

Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.

Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.

Please stop feeding the troll.

Originally Posted by jdong

The 2011 328i I've driven....parking the car is like wrestling a dead alligator, and when driving on imperfect highway pavement, the steering transmits so much road feel that it's massaging my arms.

+1

Couldn't have said it any better myself. What others call "road feel", I call "unrefined and uncomfortable".

The F30 solves all this.

BJ

Originally Posted by jdong

Call me nuts but I actually like the feel of the F30 steering compared to the E90. The 2011 328i I've driven was a bit too sports car like for my taste as a daily driver. Parking the car is like wrestling a dead alligator, and when driving on imperfect highway pavement, the steering transmits so much road feel that it's massaging my arms.

The F30 steering might be mute but it is direct and accurate.

For those who may use the car as a daily driver, but want to have some sports car feel on the twisties when not "daily driving," the loss of the steering feel is a major set back.

Too bad too many people want the 3 series to be just a daily driver. BMW used to brag about the steering feel of the 3ers, no longer.

As for the smooth revving N/A I6, it is very clear it could get the same mpg as the 2.0T, and the same power, while retaining its unique 3er identity, but it seemed jumping on the 2.0T bandwagon is a fashionable thing to do these days.

Granted BMW has the engineering resources to make the 2.0T stand out among other 2.0Ts. But they could have the N/A I6 stand out on it's own by further refining it also.

Unlike Sainter though, I understand it was a business decision, it is what it is. When there is not another good I6 alternative out there in this segment, there is not much for BMW to lose by going 2.0T. What we suppose to do, get a Volvo?

Road feel does not necessarily imply harshness and comfort and refinement do not necessarily imply isolation and numbness.
It is possible to have a refined, comfortable car with very good road feel.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Road feel has nothing to do with harshness and and it is possible to have a refined, comfortable car with good road feel.

CA

That's precisely what the F30 is. Doesn't handle like a tank in the driveway, doesn't explode in potholes on the highway. I couldn't be happier for day-to-day driving.

And, again, we're talking fractions here compared to the E90. E46 different story, night and day. But compared to the E90, the F30 is what, 2% less responsive, blindfolded you wouldn't be able to tell one car from the other on the highway or on local streets. It's much ado about nothing by people looking to nitpick. Always something to whine about, these enthusiasts.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

That's precisely what the F30 is. Doesn't handle like a tank in the driveway, doesn't explode in potholes on the highway. I couldn't be happier for day-to-day driving.

BJ

Neither of those attributes have anything to do with road feel.

I still don't understand the complaints about heavy steering in the E9x.

The pothole explosions issue on the E9x sport suspension also has nothing to do with road feel. It was simply a poorly sorted out suspension. I was able to solve the issue with no loss of road feel.

I would have been very surprised if BMW had not solved the pothole explosion issue on the F30. They may not have ever officially admitted that they had a problem on the E9x but I know as a fact that they were very aware of the issue.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Neither of those attributes have anything to do with road feel.

I still don't understand the complaints about heavy steering in the E9x.

CA

It's something you don't notice because you're used to it in the E93. Once you experience the F30 at no speed you'll see that it feels like a luxury car with power steering because it's effortless to make a three-point-turn again. Once at speed, it feels tight, and in Sport mode it requires more effort and thus recreates the E90 to a tee.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's something you don't notice because you're used to it in the E93. Once you experience the F30 at no speed you'll see that it feels like a luxury car with power steering because it's effortless to make a three-point-turn again. Once at speed, it feels tight, and in Sport mode it requires more effort and thus recreates the E90 to a tee.

BJ

We regularly go from a luxury car (750Li) to the E93 and we had a Mercedes C Class in Florida for 6 weeks.

I don't find the steering on the E9x to be heavy and neither does Ms. Audio.

The E93 is due for service. I'll see if I can get an F30 loaner and I'll post my impression of the steering.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

We regularly go from a luxury car (750Li) to the E93 and we had a Mercedes C Class in Florida for 6 weeks.

I don't find the steering on the E9x to be heavy and neither does Ms. Audio.

The E93 is due for service. I'll see if I can get an F30 loaner and I'll post my impression of the steering.

CA

I'd definitely say the E9x steering is much heavier than the F30. I don't have any complaints, but I had an F30 loaner for a week my E92 felt much heavier when I got it back. It took me all of 5 minutes to get use to it again, but still.

Originally Posted by WaxComb

I'd definitely say the E9x steering is much heavier than the F30. I don't have any complaints, but I had an F30 loaner for a week my E92 felt much heavier when I got it back. It took me all of 5 minutes to get use to it again, but still.

Is heavier = better or worse ?

I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars

Originally Posted by SilverX3

Is heavier = better or worse ?

I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars

I don't have an opinion either way, but heavier is not necessarily better. Given that, I like my E92 steering feel better. I think the F30 steering weighting is fine in sport, but still lighter than my E92.

Regarding jap cars, I liked the weighting of my old 2004 G35 with the OEM summer tires. However, I hated the overboosted feeling of the old Infiniti I35 (badge engineered late 90s/early 2000s Nissan Maxima) when I had that as a loaner once...